What tube amps do most realistic bass?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Yep, I like it. But when driving less than efficient speakers, I get more sense of stage and "airiness" than the bass from Lamm.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I can't disagree, however on a high efficient speaker even his SET's sound quite convincing
Long ago I had the ARC D-115 (mid 80s vintage), and I substituted it for my mosfet Sumo Polaris amp I thought it had more bass punch and tightness than the SS amp. In a friend's system the D-115 was used to drive the Celestion 6000 subwoofers and bass was quite deep and strong, quite impressive in that Bi-amped configuration.
I think VTLs, especially the amplifiers with adjustable damping, have to be contenders for tube amplifiers which can reproduce bass realistically.
It depends on what you call "realistic bass". If you are asking for detail in the bass, slam and depth, the Audio Research REF 750 I am listening to can be a strong candidate. Matched with appropriate speakers the Atmasphere MA2 is also a good candidate. IMHO many powerful amplifiers have impressive bass but not realistic bass, as they miss articulation and detail in the middle bass zone. Bass must be integrated with the overall performance. Many times the use of a well matched preamplifier is a key point for having "realistic bass" .
Mostly high power. I am sorry but no SET has ever convinced me they can do great low bass and great bass in general ..
From the top of my Head.
VTL anything above the MB-450 and especially the Siegfried
ARC Anything above 250 w/ch
Joule Electa the VZN-200 watts or was it VZN-100 OTL Surprising, stunning... One of the best amp I have heard ... Period .. Unfirtunately Company seems to be no longer. Jud Barber OTL amps are the stuff of legend. If there is one Tube amplifier I would gladly own: Those are it.
A David Berning I heard back in the days was may be 150 watts/ch or so.
Manley 350
Antique Audio Labs Hurricanes 200 w/ch
From the top of my Head.
VTL anything above the MB-450 and especially the Siegfried
ARC Anything above 250 w/ch
Joule Electa the VZN-200 watts or was it VZN-100 OTL Surprising, stunning... One of the best amp I have heard ... Period .. Unfirtunately Company seems to be no longer. Jud Barber OTL amps are the stuff of legend. If there is one Tube amplifier I would gladly own: Those are it.
A David Berning I heard back in the days was may be 150 watts/ch or so.
Manley 350
Antique Audio Labs Hurricanes 200 w/ch
Many VTL and the Anthem Amp1 from what these ears have heard. Also, the Carver Silver 7 and Silver 9.
Tom
Tom
An excellent topic and one most interesting.
Going back a few years (around 2009/2010) as I got hold of the cj mv60se, at the time from a chap who actually owned Quads. I seriously asked him why on earth did he want to sell his cj amp. His reply; he found a pristine pair of Lamm's SET 2 series, and thought the combination with the Quads was marvelous. He claimed he had a fairly large room and that the mv60se just couldn't deliver the extra oomph. OK, that was his opinion driving large stats.
Forwarding to 2015, when I got the Classic60se from my usual dealer chappy, I happened to bump into that same fella! He seemed to be beaming with a big smile, and had come over all the way across states just to give the newer Quads (2912's) a listen. As we sat and chatted, I inquired how were the Lamms SET's fairing. His answer; got rid of the SET's and went in for the Lamm solid state amps. I nearly fell off the seat, what!? Two things here; (1) I was quite surprised he changed the tubes for SS, (2) I was very annoyed that he didn't think of me when trying to sell off the SET's! I would have got them for what it's worth and I for one, absolutely love it's midrange & with stats, it is truly remarkable.
So he went on about this and that, and came to the point of "bass." The Quads are not known to produce low deep gutty bass in the first place, rather more musical and tuneful bass which is more than adequate for me. They are also known for reproducing the closest timbre and tone of instruments, which is a hall mark of Quads. However, he clearly told me that the powerful SS design Lamm's driving the Quads was something very remarkable. It IS capable of low bass, good powerful slam with some superb transient attacks, according to what he's hearing. I don't doubt that because a very similar incident took place couple weekends ago at a private (dealer) demo with Pass "x" series mono amps driving stats. The bass was phenomenal! Lighting quick, very responsive with a deep soundstage. Of course they cost about 10 times more than my humble classic60se.
But that is the question; I guess it boils down to what each person is after: one would like more slam, deep notes, and a fiery presentation. Others (like myself) just prefer to relax and listen ending up to be woken by the LP spinning endlessly or on digital playback in absolute silence, realizing that I had dozed off. And to me, that's tube sound.
At one time, back in tropical paradise land, I did own the might Manley 350's and they were the original designer's reference series, signed by David Manley built at VTL. With 8 KT90's in each mono amp, having a total of 16 output tubes rated at 350 plus watts of sheer muscle, they were indeed powerful, but did not have that Pass Labs SS control or quickness along with a solid thump to drive virtually anything. The Manley's were able to drive anything, even the difficult Apogee's, maggies and so on, however I found the cj amps to be far more musical and relaxing to listen to.
Again, this is a personal preference, therefore I strongly feel that there are tube amps out there that can deliver a pretty impressive impact. Having said that, in my travels and experience, I have realized two common aspects between tube amps and SS. Tube amps regardless of the output, whether SET or massive monoblocks capable of dumping 1000 w/ch (which I have heard from VTL Wotans and Ichiban) they all have a characteristic tube/valve sound, which is very warm and pleasing to listen to for endless hours.
SS on the other hand, starting from a few watts to mega watts, sound completely different between Class topologies and so on. A good example, the standard Pass Labs amps are great sounding devices, their "X" series are just superb!
So in conclusion to reply to the original post by Ceaser, that tubes amps are boring and don't do bass right- probably is correct for those sets of ears...
As for me, I will always be a tube lover, and want to relax and snooze a bit too, not to be woken by a massive transient that hit my left nut, and caused a hernia.
But I must say those Pass X-series amps are VERY nice... been thinking about them for a while now, this quest will never end. Mustn't forget my preachings- "good enough is good enough!"
Anyway to all who enjoy either their SS or tubes, just enjoy the music.
Cheers, RJ
Going back a few years (around 2009/2010) as I got hold of the cj mv60se, at the time from a chap who actually owned Quads. I seriously asked him why on earth did he want to sell his cj amp. His reply; he found a pristine pair of Lamm's SET 2 series, and thought the combination with the Quads was marvelous. He claimed he had a fairly large room and that the mv60se just couldn't deliver the extra oomph. OK, that was his opinion driving large stats.
Forwarding to 2015, when I got the Classic60se from my usual dealer chappy, I happened to bump into that same fella! He seemed to be beaming with a big smile, and had come over all the way across states just to give the newer Quads (2912's) a listen. As we sat and chatted, I inquired how were the Lamms SET's fairing. His answer; got rid of the SET's and went in for the Lamm solid state amps. I nearly fell off the seat, what!? Two things here; (1) I was quite surprised he changed the tubes for SS, (2) I was very annoyed that he didn't think of me when trying to sell off the SET's! I would have got them for what it's worth and I for one, absolutely love it's midrange & with stats, it is truly remarkable.
So he went on about this and that, and came to the point of "bass." The Quads are not known to produce low deep gutty bass in the first place, rather more musical and tuneful bass which is more than adequate for me. They are also known for reproducing the closest timbre and tone of instruments, which is a hall mark of Quads. However, he clearly told me that the powerful SS design Lamm's driving the Quads was something very remarkable. It IS capable of low bass, good powerful slam with some superb transient attacks, according to what he's hearing. I don't doubt that because a very similar incident took place couple weekends ago at a private (dealer) demo with Pass "x" series mono amps driving stats. The bass was phenomenal! Lighting quick, very responsive with a deep soundstage. Of course they cost about 10 times more than my humble classic60se.
But that is the question; I guess it boils down to what each person is after: one would like more slam, deep notes, and a fiery presentation. Others (like myself) just prefer to relax and listen ending up to be woken by the LP spinning endlessly or on digital playback in absolute silence, realizing that I had dozed off. And to me, that's tube sound.
At one time, back in tropical paradise land, I did own the might Manley 350's and they were the original designer's reference series, signed by David Manley built at VTL. With 8 KT90's in each mono amp, having a total of 16 output tubes rated at 350 plus watts of sheer muscle, they were indeed powerful, but did not have that Pass Labs SS control or quickness along with a solid thump to drive virtually anything. The Manley's were able to drive anything, even the difficult Apogee's, maggies and so on, however I found the cj amps to be far more musical and relaxing to listen to.
Again, this is a personal preference, therefore I strongly feel that there are tube amps out there that can deliver a pretty impressive impact. Having said that, in my travels and experience, I have realized two common aspects between tube amps and SS. Tube amps regardless of the output, whether SET or massive monoblocks capable of dumping 1000 w/ch (which I have heard from VTL Wotans and Ichiban) they all have a characteristic tube/valve sound, which is very warm and pleasing to listen to for endless hours.
SS on the other hand, starting from a few watts to mega watts, sound completely different between Class topologies and so on. A good example, the standard Pass Labs amps are great sounding devices, their "X" series are just superb!
So in conclusion to reply to the original post by Ceaser, that tubes amps are boring and don't do bass right- probably is correct for those sets of ears...
As for me, I will always be a tube lover, and want to relax and snooze a bit too, not to be woken by a massive transient that hit my left nut, and caused a hernia.
But I must say those Pass X-series amps are VERY nice... been thinking about them for a while now, this quest will never end. Mustn't forget my preachings- "good enough is good enough!"
Anyway to all who enjoy either their SS or tubes, just enjoy the music.
Cheers, RJ
About 20 years ago I was using a 100 watt Rotel solid state as my main amp, driving Martin/Logan Aerius (original model) speakers (low as 2-ohms).
This is a respectable good mid-fi amp which had more high frequency detail than the Adcom of the day, and better midrange than the equivalent Carver which was only good at bass reproduction (it had killer bass).
I came upon a Golden Tube Audio SE-100 (EL-34 push pull) 100 watt tube amp a few years later.
Right off the bat during the home audition the first thing I noticed was how much fuller and bolder the bass was with the tube amp.
Every fairy tale about weak bass tube amps unable to drive low ohm speakers to realistic sound levels evaporated in an instant.
Maybe I don't care about the slam of bass, otherwise that Carver would have went home with me, and I would not be so in love with tubes.
What I care about is the body, the soul, the presence of the bass instruments and their character coming through.
If all I wanted chest pumping bass, I could get by with any old home theater set up.
This is a respectable good mid-fi amp which had more high frequency detail than the Adcom of the day, and better midrange than the equivalent Carver which was only good at bass reproduction (it had killer bass).
I came upon a Golden Tube Audio SE-100 (EL-34 push pull) 100 watt tube amp a few years later.
Right off the bat during the home audition the first thing I noticed was how much fuller and bolder the bass was with the tube amp.
Every fairy tale about weak bass tube amps unable to drive low ohm speakers to realistic sound levels evaporated in an instant.
Maybe I don't care about the slam of bass, otherwise that Carver would have went home with me, and I would not be so in love with tubes.
What I care about is the body, the soul, the presence of the bass instruments and their character coming through.
If all I wanted chest pumping bass, I could get by with any old home theater set up.
A very good post.
I should also note that the powerful solid state amps tend to make a big deal about the bass. It's rather disjointed at times, not cohesive, and a bit of a bully.
The only Pass Labs amp I have had the chance to hear was 20 years ago, the single ended black cube Aleph 5. It had the musical continuity and cohesiveness of tubes, but sadly none of the bloom. If going solid state the "at ease" sedateness of that brand is something I could live with. I'm sure that their current offerings are much improved.
Absolutely, pass labs amps current offerings are way better overall in both design and performance compared 20 years ago. However, over here in Australia, they cost the equivalent to a small cottage. .. Perhaps in the US they would be far more affordable. Especially the 'X' series, I think the smallest one in the line starts at $35k for a pair. I could be off a little since I inquired last year. I'm sure they're around $45k by now... the top of the line goes into 6 figures.
Great amps though, I found the mc452 to be honest value.
Cheers, RJ
Great amps though, I found the mc452 to be honest value.
Cheers, RJ
If you look at most tube amps they have very weak power supplies which is why they most add sweetness to the top and fail at the bottom. As far as bottom end, stick with anything that has a very robust power supply(ies) (you can always use weight as a guide). Then once you have narrowed down a few choices you can filter it down further based on the tube compliment. If you like KT-xx or EL-xx etc.
It always amazes me that people use tiny low watt tube amps on efficient speakers with big drivers expecting full grip and control....
It always amazes me that people use tiny low watt tube amps on efficient speakers with big drivers expecting full grip and control....
+1
I believe the quality of the transformer has a lot to do with the ability to produce bass in a tube amp.
My ARC D70Mk2 has superb bass control, due to a robust power supply and great transformers. I have owned tube amps in the past that don't hold a candle to this amp in the bass dept...and they have produced far more power!
Which is a good point of reference for the kind of tube amplifier and price point you will need to be at. For under 10K, I typically recommend SS over tube because of the lack of options to really fit most speakers unless you are going horns.
Over 10K you really start to get a lot better components, quality and power reserves even separate chassis for just the power.
Davey, heartily agree. My Nat SE2SEs SETs at 60W/ch provide much more grip in my Zus at the bottom end than my previous 25 W/ch Audion Black Shadows. It's not primarily the higher power rating, more the overbuilt twin transformers per mono, the sound has such authority, but at no expense to delicacy, harmonics and tone. The Audions' transformers seriously pale in comparison.
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