Speaker placement and other factors......

[DaveyF]

Today I was invited to a newbie a'philes home to hear his system. The system that i was presented with was in a smallish living room...appx 15x17 and with a central fireplace at one end. The system ( which was all new in the last few months, except for the TT) consisted of all Macintosh gear with dual amps, their top-of-line pre amp and phono stage and an older used Micro Seiki TT with a Clearaudio Strad cartridge. The system was housed in three large racks..each sitting to the side of the very large flat screen TV. I guess about a 70" version.
The set up was: the TV in the middle on a stand, the audio gear on three racks adjacent to the TV and the speakers ( B&W's of some kind--I think 800 Diamonds) all adjacent to the racks along the short wall. The plane of the speakers all inline with the gear and the TV!!
All of this was sitting in front of the fireplace and also to the left and right of the glass sliding doors to the outside.
How did this system sound....

well to my ears it was basically pathetic!
I asked the newbie if he had a lot of money in the system and if he liked the result...to which he replied, as I suspected, mucho $$$ and that he was satisfied but wanted options as to how to increase the SQ.
When i suggested taking the speakers out into the room and away from the plane of the TV and the racks...he shrugged it off negatively with a comment about how he liked to have the look all aligned.

How many times have I seen something like this set-up...too many to count! How many times has the SQ impressed me...none.
How many times do we run across systems set up with the giant screen TV between the speakers and all gear jammed in the same plane??? Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely if one is going to pay $$$ for a system, wouldn't a little
effort and time be well spent on speaker placement and the basics of system set up?



BTW, at the last Newport, the same type of set up was exhibited by the folks demo'ing the Cabasse top of the line speakers ( only this time sans the TV)...and the result to my ears was the same as above!



Is speaker placement really as important to the sound of the system as I believe it to be, or are we perhaps too particular??

 

[Rodney Gold]

I find it totally amazing folk are prepared to spend 5x what a new room costs or 20x what a treated room would cost , on gear, hoping to cure a problem that cant be cured with gear
countless times I have been to folks systems and they dont even take the trouble to fiddle with speaker positioning or listening chair position where they actually have the freedom to do so
And then there are the ranks of the p---ssywhipped .. "my wife says no"........
I give up!!!!

 

[JackD201]

Doing a project now. Thank God the client sided with me and not the interior decorator.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

This is one among several examples of big flies in the ointment of "whatever ones likes" as opposed to accurate reproduction in the home aka High Fidelity. If the goal is to please the person then this person was and that should be the end of the story but we all know but may not want to admit that we like different things but hear more or less the same way. IOW there is an objective reality to reproduction.

This out of my chest Another problem that is rarely tackled by audiophile is where the listener sits in the room. Speaker positioning is in relation to the seating position, not an absolute and I have seen many systems including here where the listener sits at the opposing wall... Far from an ideal position but ... if it sounds good to him/her ... then

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . . Another problem that is rarely tackled by audiophile is where the listener sits in the room. Speaker positioning is in relation to the seating position, not an absolute and I have seen many systems including here where the listener sits at the opposing wall... Far from an ideal position but . . .

Listening back up against the rear wall definitely is bad. But for people who have rooms which are shorter than optimal, any solution (e.g., sound absorbing treatment on the wall right behind the listening position) is a compromise. I have that issue in my room myself.

 

[FrantzM]

Listening back up against the rear wall definitely is bad. But for people who have rooms which are shorter than optimal, any solution (e.g., sound absorbing treatment on the wall right behind the listening position) is a compromise. I have that issue in my room myself.

Ron

Life is about compromises.. A truism. Seating with the back at the wall is the worst compromise. That should be avoided at all cost; alas is often NOT. We do however learn to like sub-optimal situations to the extent of finding these preferable. Since it is about whatever one likes .. You see where I am going with this
This is delving into a conundrum. Since we have come to espouse the whatever one likes as being the ideal in High End Audio we do find situations with people with very high performance gear obtaining a sound that pleases them and often only them but is objectively as removed as it possible from Accurate reproduction. Audio Etiquette, PC and good manners stop the visiting audiophiles or audio friends from wondering aloud and telling the person: WTF? These past few years we have found ways, to the extent it has become The Orthodoxy, to reject anything objective and subscribe to the mantra: Whatever One likes... Thus the sad results DaveyF observed and could similarly experience from several systems with components of the highest caliber.. Allow me for a few seconds to not be PC. I will retreat in a few mins to my usual tactfulness
The best compromise would be to find speakers that are adapted to the room one currently has ... This often clashes with speakers that the audiophile liked in a different room and the (often substantial) funds that he has available and the new orthodoxy ...whatever one likes ...

 

[FrantzM]

Listening back up against the rear wall definitely is bad. But for people who have rooms which are shorter than optimal, any solution (e.g., sound absorbing treatment on the wall right behind the listening position) is a compromise. I have that issue in my room myself.

Ron.. a 25' x 20' room and you have to seat back at the wall? I am missing something here ...

 

[DonH50]

Well, my front system is basically in a line, including the TV, but my room is heavily treated and my planar speakers are fairly directive so it works for me. They are also out from the wall behind them a bit, not that it matters with the absorbers.

That said, speaker placement w.r.t. the MLP and room boundaries, and room treatment, are IME/IMO by far the most overlooked and misunderstood factors in how a system sounds. The best system on the planet can be trashed by poor positioning and a lousy room. A lot of folk simply do not understand how sound interacts in the room and simply position by aesthetics (if even that).

I am sure we could all share numerous horror stories...

 

[Kal Rubinson]

That said, speaker placement w.r.t. the MLP and room boundaries, and room treatment, are IME/IMO by far the most overlooked and misunderstood factors in how a system sounds. The best system on the planet can be trashed by poor positioning and a lousy room. A lot of folk simply do not understand how sound interacts in the room and simply position by aesthetics (if even that).

I am sure we could all share numerous horror stories...

Agreed and we do not have to look far to see this. There are many picture posts here and on other formats where people choose to show off their systems with pride and the vast majority are praised with responses like "Great setup." No, they may be a nice collection of equipment but most of them (perhaps not so much here) are terrible setups and indicate either ignorance or the influence of excessive external constraints. Obvious examples include asymmetries like having one speaker in a corner and the other adjacent to an open door way or speaker flush in front of large windows and flanking a hulking protruding fireplace mantel. How do we express this without insulting or stepping on someone's self respect?

 

[FrantzM]

Agreed and we do not have to look far to see this. There are many picture posts here and on other formats where people choose to show off their systems with pride and the vast majority are praised with responses like "Great setup." No, they may be a nice collection of equipment but most of them (perhaps not so much here) are terrible setups and indicate either ignorance or the influence of excessive external constraints. Obvious examples include asymmetries like having one speaker in a corner and the other adjacent to an open door way or speaker flush in front of large windows and flanking a hulking protruding fireplace mantel. How do we express this without insulting or stepping on someone's self respect?

The crux of the matter...

 

[Rodney Gold]

One thing must be said , that today a lot more of my pals are taking serious treatment steps and advances in DRC have made it cheap or free .. so the awareness of room/speaker interaction in my neck of the woods has grown exponentially in the last 5 years...but it involved a lot of preaching the gospel ...
Ht hasnt hurt the cause either. most top end receivers have room correction and calibration built in , and what with subs and their correction and positioning the room is losing the battle slowly but surely

 

[PeterA]

In our small Boston audio group, we are actually quite candid at expressing our opinions. Our systems and how they sound in our rooms have improved as a result. We learn a lot from each other.

 

[DaveyF]

Agreed and we do not have to look far to see this. There are many picture posts here and on other formats where people choose to show off their systems with pride and the vast majority are praised with responses like "Great setup." No, they may be a nice collection of equipment but most of them (perhaps not so much here) are terrible setups and indicate either ignorance or the influence of excessive external constraints. Obvious examples include asymmetries like having one speaker in a corner and the other adjacent to an open door way or speaker flush in front of large windows and flanking a hulking protruding fireplace mantel. How do we express this without insulting or stepping on someone's self respect?

+1

I have to say that I was VERY hesitant to answer the question of how to improve SQ when asked. The answer to me was obvious, yet to the other guy, it clearly was not...or he simply chose to ignore it. Turns out it was probably a combination of the latter and stubbornness- would be my guess. Like Rodney stated above, it is pretty amazing to me too that someone would invest in gear like that and yet make no effort to optimize it!

 

[PeterA]

+1

I have to say that I was VERY hesitant to to answer the question of how to improve SQ when asked. The answer to me was obvious, yet to the other guy, it clearly was not...or he simply chose to ignore it. Turns out it was probably a combination of the latter and stubbornness- would be my guess. Like Rodney stated above, it is pretty amazing to me too that someone would invest in gear like that and yet make no effort to optimize it!

Where was his dealer in all of this?

 

[DaveyF]

Where was his dealer in all of this?

I have no idea....however, I very much doubt that the dealer would have had much say as to placement. Nonetheless, the dealer must have been quite pleased with the sale....apparently he bought all of the gear from one vendor, including the speakers.

 

[Robh3606]

I have to say that I was VERY hesitant to to answer the question of how to improve SQ when asked. The answer to me was obvious, yet to the other guy, it clearly was not...or he simply chose to ignore it. Turns out it was probably a combination of the latter and stubbornness- would be my guess. Like Rodney stated above, it is pretty amazing to me too that someone would invest in gear like that and yet make no effort to optimize it!

He probably doesn't know. He listens in the show room and if he likes what he hears he thinks it will sound the same at home. The dealer is not going to get into that end of it unless he does room treatments as well. Can imagine telling someone that it's pointless to spend all this money if your room sucks and even if it doesn't the rooms layout will be dictated by the best speaker and listening positions!!! Don't see that happening especially with a new guy with a big wallet.

Rob

 

[thedudeabides]

If the dealer has integrity and acts in a professional manner, he should disclose this information prior to purchase.

If the client is warned and still wishes to pursue, so be it. And the dealer did "the right thing" and acted in an honest, forthright manner.

 

[DonH50]

"That looks great! Maybe just for an experiment if you tried XYZ it might improve the sound?"

Always easier in person, but speaker placement in particular is often driven more by aesthetics and WAF than sonic considerations. I am lucky to have an understanding wife, and even luckier to finally have my own dedicated media room.

 

[amirm]

When it comes to speaker performance and room acoustics, we do not have the same playbook. By nature then, any solution goes. And criticism won't hold much weight.

 

[Robh3606]

If the dealer has integrity and acts in a professional manner, he should disclose this information prior to purchase.

If the client is warned and still wishes to pursue, so be it. And the dealer did "the right thing" and acted in an honest, forthright manner.

From the list of gear he could have purchased it at a Magnolia. I don't know about you but I have yet to find a sales person who is as knowledgeable as I am when it comes to purchasing gear I am interested in. I do my homework so to speak. Also depends on how knowledgeable the sales guy was. Doesn't have anything to do with integrity if he flat out doesn't know. With all the brick and motars closing it is not so easy to find someone who really knows soup to nuts what you really need to do to get the best out of a system.

Rob