KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[KeithR]

Great story, thanks for sharing Phil. I have felt through my auditions that there is a lot of dynamic constriction going on that people just don't realize. And while big amps can overcome them, its a much more limited path to success. Zu taught me a lot about effortless sound.

Separately, Zu and I never cozy'd up on classical music during my 6.5 year ownership. I realize we disagree here.

 

[asiufy]

I have felt through my auditions that there is a lot of dynamic constriction going on that people just don't realize.

I do agree with this bit...

And while big amps can overcome them, its a much more limited path to success. Zu taught me a lot about effortless sound.

Separately, Zu and I never cozy'd up on classical music during my 6.5 year ownership. I realize we disagree here.

But not here. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 100-200W amps doing their thing on 88-90dB efficient speakers. I don't see how that's a "more limited path to success".
And, to my ears and perception, many such combos can sound way, WAY more dynamic and effortless than Zu on 10-20W amps, specially if you start pushing the volume up, as distortion (in the speakers) will start to play a bigger role.

 

[213Cobra]

A Zu owner is not limited to 10-20w amps. One of the distinguishing features of Zu is their combination of high efficiency with high power-handling. Want to lash a pair of 1200w McIntosh amps to Zu Definitions, for example? Have at it. Last I asked Sean, no customer has ever blown a Zu FRD in the field.

100-200w amps on ~90db/w/m speakers can certainly be credible, but that's a really a dead end. It gets worse in the 200 - 2000w amps. First, there aren't very many good sounding 100+w amps, i.e. most are musically unconvincing or at least sonically compromised. Second, both the amps and the speakers lack the jump factor that Zu -- or higher-efficiency horns for that matter -- can effortlessly deliver on simpler amplification built to a higher standard. As power needs rise, musically-convincing amplifier choices become increasingly restricted. And there are very few speakers for which high power overcomes the intrinsic choke points of a passive crossover doing its worst to impede musical satisfaction.

Phil

 

[asiufy]

A Zu owner is not limited to 10-20w amps. One of the distinguishing features of Zu is their combination of high efficiency with high power-handling. Want to lash a pair of 1200w McIntosh amps to Zu Definitions, for example? Have at it. Last I asked Sean, no customer has ever blown a Zu FRD in the field.

100-200w amps on ~90db/w/m speakers can certainly be credible, but that's a really a dead end. It gets worse in the 200 - 2000w amps. First, there aren't very many good sounding 100+w amps, i.e. most are musically unconvincing or at least sonically compromised. Second, both the amps and the speakers lack the jump factor that Zu -- or higher-efficiency horns for that matter -- can effortlessly deliver on simpler amplification built to a higher standard. As power needs rise, musically-convincing amplifier choices become increasingly restricted. And there are very few speakers for which high power overcomes the intrinsic choke points of a passive crossover doing its worst to impede musical satisfaction.

Phil

Horses for courses. I think there are far more sonically compromised 10-20W amps than there are 100W+ amps.
I don't think that so-called "jump factor" is exclusive to Zus, or ultra-high-efficiency speakers anyway. There's more than one way to skin that particular cat, and you might like a certain way, but to call the other way "compromised" or "limited" is not right.
To me, crossovers are not the issue, but driver/cabinet distortion. That is what limits my enjoyment, and that's what causes a "choke point", specially at loud volumes. Not crossovers.

cheers,
alex

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, the "to the max" expression of this argument would be the Magico Ultimate horns. Ultra high efficiency/horns jump factor AND heroic anti distortion structure and drivers.

FWIW, does anyone know of Stereo's efforts to run his Ultimates w multiway amps/dacs/xovers? He was talking as big at it gets 5+ years ago.

 

[morricab]

I do agree with this bit...



But not here. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 100-200W amps doing their thing on 88-90dB efficient speakers. I don't see how that's a "more limited path to success".
And, to my ears and perception, many such combos can sound way, WAY more dynamic and effortless than Zu on 10-20W amps, specially if you start pushing the volume up, as distortion (in the speakers) will start to play a bigger role.

Yes, the lower sensitivity speaker will start to distort sooner... it’s called thermal compression and it’s physics.

 

[asiufy]

Yes, the lower sensitivity speaker will start to distort sooner... it’s called thermal compression and it’s physics.

That's not what I hear, specially when it comes to the speaker 213Cobra likes.
And drivers distort for many different reasons, other than the one you've mentioned. But yeah, if we're throwing generalizations around, why not throw another one out there, right?

 

[microstrip]

Yes, the lower sensitivity speaker will start to distort sooner... it’s called thermal compression and it’s physics.

Physics also shows that, excluding some poor designs, current good speakers do not suffer from thermal compression when used at audiophile sound levels.

BTW, physics also tells us that if smoke is coming out of the coils of our speaker we are listening too loud or the amplifier is faulty ...

 

[Folsom]

Yes, the lower sensitivity speaker will start to distort sooner... it’s called thermal compression and it’s physics.

What about 4ohm vs 16ohm?

Great story, thanks for sharing Phil. I have felt through my auditions that there is a lot of dynamic constriction going on that people just don't realize. And while big amps can overcome them, its a much more limited path to success. Zu taught me a lot about effortless sound.

Separately, Zu and I never cozy'd up on classical music during my 6.5 year ownership. I realize we disagree here.

Dynamic restriction is a funny thing. A lot of it is just poor ability to scale volume accurately, poor memory (linear) distortion. But you also see plenty of somewhat poorly considered designs that saturate a little bit all the time as current is too high and voltage sags. (High current causes dynamic loss if it makes voltage sag, and current doesn’t get restricted, not a real thing)

I think a lot of us notice different moments of dynamic issues. But in general the SPL readings would tell us we are deaf. The reality is the indicators are not being audible in a way that let’s us know, if the SPL is actually high. But sometimes you notice a literal flat spot, total flop of voltage.

It’s probably not worth trying to develop any philosophy around the subject. Hearing is believing.

 

[213Cobra]

In 50 years of spending my own money on hifi, and having worked in the industry, I've experienced and experimented with all the variables. Cabinet designs and execution are inhibitors. Driver designs and execution are inhibitors. Amplifier designs and execution are inhibitors. And in the tiny few cases of good choices made all around, each of them become enablers. But in loudspeakers, crossovers are the first sin and blocker to convincing musicality. Their deleterious effects are easily heard and asserted in the same way regardless of cabinet type, loading scheme, materials, drivers, amps, cables, rooms, etc. The crossover is the first-order destroyer of coherence and tone. The follow-on effect is discordant drivers taking the severed slices of signal. This is also evident in the discordance evident in line arrays using multiple samples of the same driver. Fine for PA; corrosive to convincing sound in the intimacy of a home.

Now, a simple crossover-based speaker well-executed is better than a poor full-range driver crossoverless speaker. It took a long time to get to having a viable choice. On the other hand, most people in the market for home hifi aren't interested in musical, tonal or sonic authenticity. Most people -- even the most allegedly-sophisticated consumers (and reviewers) -- buy and recommend for some kind of musical exaggeration. And usually, to get that, they must chose from inhibitor-laden gear regardless of price. For them, it's a rich and varied market!

Yes, I am unimpressed with the vast majority of what we have to choose from, but fortunately there is always a small cluster of compatible and synergistic components engineered and built for coherence and authentic tone, by a tiny coterie of like-minded makers. High end audio becomes very easy when all but perhaps 1/10th of 1% of it can be safely ignored when building a musically convincing system.

Phil

 

[DaveC]

But in loudspeakers, crossovers are the first sin and blocker to convincing musicality. Their deleterious effects are easily heard and asserted in the same way regardless of cabinet type, loading scheme, materials, drivers, amps, cables, rooms, etc. The crossover is the first-order destroyer of coherence and tone. The follow-on effect is discordant drivers taking the severed slices of signal. This is also evident in the discordance evident in line arrays using multiple samples of the same driver. Fine for PA; corrosive to convincing sound in the intimacy of a home.



Phil

This has been the mantra of the single driver enthusiasts from day 1 and there's some truth to it, especially at lower price points.

However, imo modern high-end multi-way speakers have made all of these issues much less significant. This has happened fairly recently, with many brands making some hugely significant advances in sound quality to the point a couple of brands might fool you into thinking you're hearing a single driver if you didn't know any better. 10 years ago though, it wasn't the case and you had far fewer choices of multi-driver speakers that were competitive with single drivers in the areas they excel in.

Now, I struggle to find the place that very expensive single drivers have in the market... many sound great but imo there is no single driver that has solved it's largest issues of full frequency extension, limited SPL abilities and intermodulation distortion preventing them from playing large scale music with any sort of clarity or authority. OTOH, brands like YG, Verity, Magico and many others have minimized their own compromises while strengthening their already superior abilities to reproduce large scale music, largely because of advances in crossover networks.

I've owned single drivers for probably 20 years and IMO their time as being considered a truly high end alternative to other speakers is over. Their place as being a reasonably priced alternative (which Zu is, IMO, but they also aren't single drivers.) to more compromised and lower priced multi-way speakers is still valid though. It's just spending 5-figures on bare drivers from some of the top single driver names in the industry seems pointless these days.

 

[Folsom]

In 50 years of spending my own money on hifi, and having worked in the industry, I've experienced and experimented with all the variables. Cabinet designs and execution are inhibitors. Driver designs and execution are inhibitors. Amplifier designs and execution are inhibitors. And in the tiny few cases of good choices made all around, each of them become enablers. But in loudspeakers, crossovers are the first sin and blocker to convincing musicality. Their deleterious effects are easily heard and asserted in the same way regardless of cabinet type, loading scheme, materials, drivers, amps, cables, rooms, etc. The crossover is the first-order destroyer of coherence and tone. The follow-on effect is discordant drivers taking the severed slices of signal. This is also evident in the discordance evident in line arrays using multiple samples of the same driver. Fine for PA; corrosive to convincing sound in the intimacy of a home.

Now, a simple crossover-based speaker well-executed is better than a poor full-range driver crossoverless speaker. It took a long time to get to having a viable choice. On the other hand, most people in the market for home hifi aren't interested in musical, tonal or sonic authenticity. Most people -- even the most allegedly-sophisticated consumers (and reviewers) -- buy and recommend for some kind of musical exaggeration. And usually, to get that, they must chose from inhibitor-laden gear regardless of price. For them, it's a rich and varied market!

Yes, I am unimpressed with the vast majority of what we have to choose from, but fortunately there is always a small cluster of compatible and synergistic components engineered and built for coherence and authentic tone, by a tiny coterie of like-minded makers. High end audio becomes very easy when all but perhaps 1/10th of 1% of it can be safely ignored when building a musically convincing system.

Phil

When I read stuff like this, I agree with some of the conclusions about a limited amount of gear actually being appealing, but the reasoning is usually a bit silly. People simply don't know enough about how electronics, let alone speakers, work to really make the statements they do. These are merely observations that have come about. Tall tales, mostly, come out of them. There are reasons for everything you hear, but your reasons are not the same.

And I have to mention, you know most classical recordings are inherently very dry and so the tone comes across that way too? I think some people such as yourself think that isn't true, but it is... it's not even debatable because we know all the gear used, and can demonstrate it with the most annoyingly accurate gear there is. I think that you have to simply accept that you like stereos that add tone.

 

[morricab]

Physics also shows that, excluding some poor designs, current good speakers do not suffer from thermal compression when used at audiophile sound levels.

BTW, physics also tells us that if smoke is coming out of the coils of our speaker we are listening too loud or the amplifier is faulty ...

This is not true I have seen studies where the onset of compression occurs already in the low 90sdb for a mid 80s driver. As it is a dynamic effect the strength of the signal to the driver will determine the degree of attenuation...heating can be very rapid...like a light bulb filament...but perhaps not as bright .

Of course a high output with little current flowing through the coil...like what a pro driver with 100+db sensitivity would see at 90db, will be ready for a 10-20db crest factor...a mid 80s driver will not be ready and will compress.

 

[morricab]

What about 4ohm vs 16ohm?



Dynamic restriction is a funny thing. A lot of it is just poor ability to scale volume accurately, poor memory (linear) distortion. But you also see plenty of somewhat poorly considered designs that saturate a little bit all the time as current is too high and voltage sags. (High current causes dynamic loss if it makes voltage sag, and current doesn’t get restricted, not a real thing)

I think a lot of us notice different moments of dynamic issues. But in general the SPL readings would tell us we are deaf. The reality is the indicators are not being audible in a way that let’s us know, if the SPL is actually high. But sometimes you notice a literal flat spot, total flop of voltage.

It’s probably not worth trying to develop any philosophy around the subject. Hearing is believing.

Actually, distortion can masquarde as dynamics because it makes it sound louder. Kind of like compression and the loudness wars on recordings. When the recording is heavily compessed as well then the demands on the speaker are much less and they can get away with being compressed as well...but you put widebandwidth (dynamically) music and they don't sound real.

I think one of the reasons a lot of horn listeners like to listen close to live levels is because those systems sound less distorted at higher volume levels and can therefore get closer to live without the tell tale signs of distortion that force you to limit the volume level and never really get a lifelike sound at lower levels.

 

[microstrip]

This is not true I have seen studies where the onset of compression occurs already in the low 90sdb for a mid 80s driver. As it is a dynamic effect the strength of the signal to the driver will determine the degree of attenuation...heating can be very rapid...like a light bulb filament...but perhaps not as bright .

Of course a high output with little current flowing through the coil...like what a pro driver with 100+db sensitivity would see at 90db, will be ready for a 10-20db crest factor...a mid 80s driver will not be ready and will compress.

If all you report is a single study carried with an unnamed mid from the 80's we can rest ourselves, except for the lovers of vintage speakers ...

Anyway some people have reported that one of the reasons LP's sound great is the thermal compression of the cutting heads, that are driven by high power - some cutting head amplifiers had around 1kW total power - so we should not worry too much about the subject.

 

[morricab]

This has been the mantra of the single driver enthusiasts from day 1 and there's some truth to it, especially at lower price points.

However, imo modern high-end multi-way speakers have made all of these issues much less significant. This has happened fairly recently, with many brands making some hugely significant advances in sound quality to the point a couple of brands might fool you into thinking you're hearing a single driver if you didn't know any better. 10 years ago though, it wasn't the case and you had far fewer choices of multi-driver speakers that were competitive with single drivers in the areas they excel in.

Now, I struggle to find the place that very expensive single drivers have in the market... many sound great but imo there is no single driver that has solved it's largest issues of full frequency extension, limited SPL abilities and intermodulation distortion preventing them from playing large scale music with any sort of clarity or authority. OTOH, brands like YG, Verity, Magico and many others have minimized their own compromises while strengthening their already superior abilities to reproduce large scale music, largely because of advances in crossover networks.

I've owned single drivers for probably 20 years and IMO their time as being considered a truly high end alternative to other speakers is over. Their place as being a reasonably priced alternative (which Zu is, IMO, but they also aren't single drivers.) to more compromised and lower priced multi-way speakers is still valid though. It's just spending 5-figures on bare drivers from some of the top single driver names in the industry seems pointless these days.

Have to disagree about the big name box brands you mentioned...Munich just reinforces this to me every year...as do dealer demos I go to etc...

That said I also agree with you regading single drivers and big music...and I find using said drivers in a two-way design can yield great results...particularly going with active xover (but choosing my own DACs so I don't get the compromised solutions in most active xovers). This year I heard the ultra-expensive AX-Jet with AER drivers...horrible... the ultra expensive Voxative speaker was really great as long as you stuck to relatiely uncomplicated music. I have two pairs of single driver speakers, Decware HDTs and Supravox Alizees but through experiments so far with the HDTs I can clearly make them better by adding a mid/high compression driver (Beyma CP755TI in an 18 sound XT1464 CD horn) with the active xover.

That said, I have rarely owned a better late night speaker than the HDTs...they come alive at such low volumes that you can get a nice lively sound at volumes most others just squeak a bit.

 

[213Cobra]

YG, Magico, Wilson included, I have heard no improvement from anyone allegedly making complex crossovers an ameliorated driver of musical destruction. In those cases, actually, quite the opposite. I wasn't, by the way, a single-driver enthusiast from Day 1. It was an ideal unrealized. There were no authentic sounding full range drivers throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s. In the 2000s we got some breakthroughs, Zu chief among them and as you point out, no Zu speaker is a true single driver transducer. Most Zus use various grades of their continually-evolving FRD covering 90% of the musically-relevant octaves range, complemented by a supertweeter on a high-pass filter for harmonic completeness, and then two models thus far have been further complemented by amplified sub-bass modules on low-pass filters. But the result is Zu gets closest to full range, and does so sans crossovers, and delivers high efficiency with high power handling. They are friendly to a very wide range of amplifiers.

As I hear them, modern multi-way, multi-driver, crossover-intensive speakers are losing ground in coherence in part because the resolution of the individual drivers is improving faster than the deleterious effects of using them can be ameliorated. YG & Magico, just as examples, while sounding very different nevertheless make the impression their designers never actually listened to their designs before implementing for production. Do they transduce signal into sound? Absolutely. Do they transduce signal into music? Alas, not so much. Most of today's designers are going forward on linearity and backward on coherence and tone, with crossovers introducing dynamic non-linearities to further pollute the result. Amps have for the most part gotten better, even the bad ones, but the speaker makers have mostly lost the plot. Or listeners have, so they reward designers' wayward behaviors.

I posit that if the aggregate design talent currently misdirected and wasted on dead-end multi-way speakers instead followed Sean Casey's lead and put their minds to crossoverless design, we'd have a cornucopia of musically-convincing loudspeakers, faster-paced evolution of full-range drivers, and a conclusive endpoint shoving the crossover-based speaker aside to irrelevance. It's not that people aren't smart enough in this endeavor. They just lack imagination and will. The development path for multi-way speakers leads to a dead zone. The soil is depleted. Ideas have dried up. We're converging on the same, flawed sound. The development potential for the crossoverless speaker is however vast, but it takes work. What Zu, Voxativ and Audience have achieved over the last 15 years in advancing coherence in loudspeakers is just a start, whereas everything invested in multi-way has been a finish. Multi-way sound isn't much better today than in 2004. Just more ways to hear the same errors.

Why aren't there more audiophiles? Because complication and cost are rising, but musicality is not. And speaker makers are the leading cause.

Phil

 

[morricab]

If all you report is a single study carried with an unnamed mid from the 80's we can rest ourselves, except for the lovers of vintage speakers ...

Anyway some people have reported that one of the reasons LP's sound great is the thermal compression of the cutting heads, that are driven by high power - some cutting head amplifiers had around 1kW total power - so we should not worry too much about the subject.

I meant mid-80s db not 1980s...

 

[microstrip]

[QUOTE="morricab, post: 584898, member: 5671" (...) I think one of the reasons a lot of horn listeners like to listen close to live levels (...) [/QUOTE]

Interesting. I would love to have the opinions of horn owners about this subject. I have some recordings that report the sound level of the live performance with instructions to set live level and can not listen to such levels in any syetm more than a few minutes, although they sound great at such level.

 

[microstrip]

I meant mid-80s db not 1980s...

So now it becomes anonymous in name and time ...

Those interested in the subject can read this old article on the subject of power compression https://www.stereophile.com/content/hot-stuff-loudspeaker-voice-coil-temperatures-page-2