KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[213Cobra]

Phil, I think you're not consistent w yr own logic there. You're saying xover based multi driver spkrs were poor in 2011, and have come no further fwd. And you were a fan of Zu in 2011. So, any comparison in 2011 would have been totally valid to reinforce yr view.

The poster of that comment was carrying a 2011 assessment forward into 2019. Nothing inconsistent at all. And more to the point, Zu speakers have made more progress since 2011 than have any crossover based lines extant then.

Phil

 

[morricab]

Bad noise control from the power supply/AC is typically the worst offender of making fatiguing sound. But I've found certain polyester caps can pack it on, too. Here's a good visual of why that might be. (personally I think the shots on the scope, while supposedly too small to matter, exactly represent typical cap sounds) Also I've heard too many exotic parts sound rather fatiguing with some gear (weird capacitors, wire, etc) - that goes for SS and Tubes. I've heard many painful tube amps, and many SS amps that I couldn't tolerate. In some cases a single power cord is enough to make me want to turn off a stereo.

Tests show speakers with less distortion tend to be less offensive over time, but that's kind of tentative... purchase patterns and claims don't necessarily show that. And more so low distortion speakers may really make a painful stereo shine bright like mad.

All valid points. I have found too that noise and power supply control are important for removing fatiguing elements from the signal. Haven't heard too many painful tube amps (but a fair number of boring ones) and too many poor SS amps to count.

I personally find that I can tolerate speaker imperfections far more easily than I can electronic (be it from the gear or power) ones. This seems natural to me because in the end a mechanical transducer will be make physical vibrations in the physical world and our ear/brain kind of knows how to hear around those. Electronic distortions have no analog in nature and I think this is why it takes so very little of it to destroy the illusion. Engineers seem to completely underestimate the sensitivity to such distortions and their cumulative effect on the SQ. There was a drive to push THD + noise as low as possible but only in recent years a broader realization that HOW you get there matters too because of the residuals of the process.

 

[the sound of Tao]

The poster of that comment was carrying a 2011 assessment forward into 2019. Nothing inconsistent at all. And more to the point, Zu speakers have made more progress since 2011 than have any crossover based lines extant then.

Phil

I wasn’t carrying anything forward. I was relating an experience. Just another data point... just like yours Phil.

 

[morricab]

I was going to generally agree to the idea that wide-banders often seem to struggle with more complex large scale music but then reconsidered as this might be just too generalised. Clearly there are some exceptional single driver implementations and the reports and consistent descriptions of the General’s system are regularly great and especially with classical and jazz by accounts.

But I was thinking more about the Zu references initially and agree wholeheartedly with Marc’s earlier comments on classical being not at all a strength for them which is very much what I have heard with Zu.

In 2011 over the course of a year I listened at length to four different models of Zu’s driven at times with Audion, Manley, Modwright and Bakoon amps and always either high quality vinyl or digi systems. The immediate quality of openness that comes with a dynamic crossoverless speaker was always the Zu’s most immediate attraction... but it was always how they played classical that made me just want to pass on buying them.

Al’s recent reports in having been able to get his Reference 3As to scale up and happily do large scale classical keeps my mind open on this wrt to this speaker species, though for me it’s moot as I am utterly happy with my current speakers in the arena of playing classical (especially after a bit of modifying the horns) they are all now beyond exceptional in this.

So far, I am finding a well executed two-way, back loaded horn (or TQWT), to be superior to the single driver speakers that I own (Decware HDTs and Supravox Alizeè) for most music and at normal listening levels. However, at lower levels the single driver speakers are more "woke" and can deliver satisfying sound at quite low levels. My project, adding a horn mid/tweeter to the single driver, seems to pay off nicely. It stays nicely woken at low levels but scales up much better: smoother, not falling apart and with equal or better resolution,

 

[Folsom]

I'll be a little more fair to some tube amps, in some cases maybe it was goofy cables that made them sound much worse. But I'll also reiterate that I have younger ears, and what I perceive as too much might be nice for more aged ears.

HDT speaker's drivers aren't exactly a very flat FR, so they'll give you a little something extra, which would I guess be more "woke" at really low listening levels.

 

[morricab]

The General's are in horns that help reduce the movement of the cone, to prevent the problems that single drivers have (other than often bad FR). That's another approach that works decently well. It's funny though, it makes small drivers into huge speakers.

That's how most of these drivers are loaded, BTW...none of my speakers (FRD or otherwise) have much in the way of woofer excursion (you can't even see it when playing bass heavy material loudly).

 

[morricab]

I'll be a little more fair to some tube amps, in some cases maybe it was goofy cables that made them sound much worse. But I'll also reiterate that I have younger ears, and what I perceive as too much might be nice for more aged ears.

HDT speaker's drivers aren't exactly a very flat FR, so they'll give you a little something extra, which would I guess be more "woke" at really low listening levels.

Yes, like most FRDs, they tilt upwards as the frequency goes up but much more smoothly than a Lowther, for instance.

 

[213Cobra]

Phil this was 8 years ago... I told you the amps, VPI and Monaco turntables which I remember because they were good, remember at least druids and could have been omens but seriously I have forgotten the models names and there is a reason for that. My mate sold them for exactly this limited capacity to play more complex music, Marc regularly attests to it and hats off to him for all the effort he has put in to work on this and his openness about the issue. You are the only person I have ever read claiming that Zus were all good at classical. I’m happy you are happy with them. That’s all that counts really.

Somehow I lost track wrt to amps you told me about. VPI TT, depends which one. Monaco...yeah, generally OK; no real issue.

Zu Omens are part of their accessible line and there is a LOT less attention paid to absolute fidelity and cabinet control at those price points. Omen is the entry and party speaker. Nothing derogatory intended about that, but if you are judging Zu Definition suitability for classical on what you heard from Omens or Omen Def, that's just not in the same realm. Druid can be acceptable for classical in the right setting but it is a speaker more dialed for intimacy than scale. Druid 6 is a great leap forward in classical applicability. No prior Druid truly scaled for classical music to the level this crowd demands, though they were tonally correct for symphony. Zu Definition is an entirely different vessel for transmuting electricity into acoustic classical music.

I grew up listening to live classical music at the Philadelphia Orchestra during the Ormandy era, later the Pittsburgh with William Steinberg, and then ten years of season tickets with the BSO and Ozawa. More since then, elsewhere. Many distinctly different halls. I have no idea why anyone might think a Zu Definition system can't do classical music well. I consider them one of a very few speakers that transduce classical music authentically in domestic circumstances.

And btw, I have no reservations about being the only one you've ever read thinking this. I grew up in Amish country in Pennsylvania. You learn it's entirely legitimate to believe the rest of the army is out of step. Majority opinion on these matters has no effect on me. People come to me for advice, I give it to them. If they want to hear something different, I just tell them to pick their perceived expert. Disagreement by itself doesn't persuade me.

Phil

 

[Folsom]

That's how most of these drivers are loaded, BTW...none of my speakers (FRD or otherwise) have much in the way of woofer excursion (you can't even see it when playing bass heavy material loudly).

Well, some of them simply don't have any excursion with xmax's at like 1mm or less. They are still affected some by bounce, but overall I think the FR on some of them is the worst part depending on what you like to listen to. And I'd say in the US you won't find even much of a minority that get stuffed into very large horn type cabs, but perhaps that's true in other places. A challenged FR will also create disparity on complex music. I think our brains have to somewhat continuously adjust to FR's affecting volume shifts in a couple instruments but it totally falls apart with an orchestra. You've got a 6db shift, maybe more, across a couple instruments that are scaling volume in a passage... that's a lot.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Somehow I lost track wrt to amps you told me about. VPI TT, depends which one. Monaco...yeah, generally OK; no real issue.

Zu Omens are part of their accessible line and there is a LOT less attention paid to absolute fidelity and cabinet control at those price points. Omen is the entry and party speaker. Nothing derogatory intended about that, but if you are judging Zu Definition suitability for classical on what you heard from Omens or Omen Def, that's just not in the same realm. Druid can be acceptable for classical in the right setting but it is a speaker more dialed for intimacy than scale. Druid 6 is a great leap forward in classical applicability. No prior Druid truly scaled for classical music to the level this crowd demands, though they were tonally correct for symphony. Zu Definition is an entirely different vessel for transmuting electricity into acoustic classical music.

I grew up listening to live classical music at the Philadelphia Orchestra during the Ormandy era, later the Pittsburgh with William Steinberg, and then ten years of season tickets with the BSO and Ozawa. More since then, elsewhere. Many distinctly different halls. I have no idea why anyone might think a Zu Definition system can't do classical music well. I consider them one of a very few speakers that transduce classical music authentically in domestic circumstances.

And btw, I have no reservations about being the only one you've ever read thinking this. I grew up in Amish country in Pennsylvania. You learn it's entirely legitimate to believe the rest of the army is out of step. Majority opinion on these matters has no effect on me. People come to me for advice, I give it to them. If they want to hear something different, I just tell them to pick their perceived expert. Disagreement by itself doesn't persuade me.

Phil

All good Phil, I really am unconcerned about what you think gear sounds like as I’m sure that we listen for very different things. Please don’t ask me to explain or justify the notion of subjectivity. Big picture if you think Zu are good enough for you at classical then that’s all fine.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Since the listener is the final arbiter of sound quality and not an oscilloscope, then the absolute measured distortion is not nearly as important as the content of that distortion.

My Daughter is now learning to play trumpet...doesn't hurt my ears even up close ...but it can be quite loud this is for sure.

Brad, daughters can do no wrong in the eyes (ears) of their dads LOL.

 

[213Cobra]

All good Phil, I really am unconcerned about what you think gear sounds like as I’m sure that we listen for very different things. Please don’t ask me to explain or justify the notion of subjectivity. Big picture if you think Zu are good enough for you at classical then that’s fine.

All good then. Neither of us cares what the other thinks. That's an attained equilibrium! Stasis in an audiophile forum is a win. -Phil

 

[the sound of Tao]

All good then. Neither of us cares what the other thinks. That's an attained equilibrium! Stasis in an audiophile forum is a win. -Phil

It’s called letting go... I love it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, the moat here at the chapel is for dipping hot-headed reviewers' hot heads in. Y'know, those that say Zus can't do this, Zus can't do that. Instant therapy for such people.

 

[morricab]

Any of you heard the Tune Audio Prime? This looks like a cool speaker for a moderate sized room. Full-range driver with 1st order xover all the way up at 6300Hz to a bullet supertweeter...both from Fostex. The cabinet design they call a mass loaded horn (floor firing), which is another name I am guessing for a TQWT. This is very similar in concept to what I have at home. They are about the same size as my former Odeon Rigolettos and smaller than my Odeon La Bohemes and have a similar sensitivity to the former. The big difference to the Odeons is that the crossover is much higher on the Primes as my La Bohemes have a pretty decent sized horn (25cm mouth) that is crossing probably around 1.2-1.5Khz.

 

[bonzo75]

I have heard both the lower models of the tune audio. I didn't like them. I did not listen to manisandher one as he might have set them up differently.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mani runs a pr in his second system. I believe he rates the bass better than his Animas (his wife is thus a fan), but not the same mids magic.

 

[manisandher]

Yes, the lower sensitivity speaker will start to distort sooner... it’s called thermal compression and it’s physics.

I don't know much about the physics of 'thermal compression', but the physics of required amplifier power is clear cut. Consider that I want to listen to music at an average SPL of 85dB, sitting 3m away from the speakers. To be on the safe side, I want the amplifier to be able to handle dynamic peaks of 25dB (not common, but certainly exists in some of the music I have). In which case, here's what I'll need:

109dB/w@1m sensitivity speakers (e.g my horns) = 11 watts
89dB/w@1m sensitivity speakers (e.g. typical direct radiators) = 1133 watts!

And that's the physics of the situation.

(https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required)

Mani.

 

[Folsom]

DIY world is much more advanced than the Tune Prime at this point. It's not hard to see why they used a tweeter after 6k.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Any of you heard the Tune Audio Prime? This looks like a cool speaker for a moderate sized room. Full-range driver with 1st order xover all the way up at 6300Hz to a bullet supertweeter...both from Fostex. The cabinet design they call a mass loaded horn (floor firing), which is another name I am guessing for a TQWT. This is very similar in concept to what I have at home. They are about the same size as my former Odeon Rigolettos and smaller than my Odeon La Bohemes and have a similar sensitivity to the former. The big difference to the Odeons is that the crossover is much higher on the Primes as my La Bohemes have a pretty decent sized horn (25cm mouth) that is crossing probably around 1.2-1.5Khz.

I’ve spent a fair bit of time with both the Animas and the Primes and had each at home for several months as well. I can appreciate the Primes if the amp is right for them, but I love the Animas.