KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[spiritofmusic]

This is maybe another discussion where theory and practice don't always comply. Maybe we all hear differently on what level of distortion we can tolerate, and what level we like.

So, I can easily absorb clicks and pops on vinyl, a purely digital guy will crawl up the walls. But play some groove wear on an lp that's had a stylus rake it hundreds of times at too high a tracking wt, and I'm waiting my time to climb those walls too.

Not saying this is the case, but possibly, maybe, the combination of FRD distortions at various points in their frequency range allied to natural 211s quirks, sits in my tolerance zone, or even adds to enjoyment of many genres that struggle on more linear neutral spkrs/amps combinations. But are exposed somewhat on music that needs the most accurate uncoloured presentation.

Maybe this is why my Zus/SETs are so compelling on music that sounds unappetising and challenged on horns ie prog, fusion, poorly recorded electronica, but more more mixed on classical that shines on the best horns.

 

[morricab]

I have heard both the lower models of the tune audio. I didn't like them. I did not listen to manisandher one as he might have set them up differently.

Why not?

 

[morricab]

I don't know much about the physics of 'thermal compression', but the physics of required amplifier power is clear cut. Consider that I want to listen to music at an average SPL of 85dB, sitting 3m away from the speakers. To be on the safe side, I want the amplifier to be able to handle dynamic peaks of 25dB (not common, but certainly exists in some of the music I have). In which case, here's what I'll need:

109dB/w@1m sensitivity speakers (e.g my horns) = 11 watts
89dB/w@1m sensitivity speakers (e.g. typical direct radiators) = 1133 watts!

And that's the physics of the situation.

(https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#amp_power_required)

Mani.

Yes, and that is assuming NO thermal compression where you get 3db with each doubling of power...once things compress then that doubling of power might get you only 2db, or 1db or no db. Did you calculate for only 1 speaker? With a stereo pair you can add another 6db to the sensitivity and the drop at 3 meters will be less than you think because of the room. My guess is you can hit those 110db peaks with a bit over 1 watt on the Animas...but still like hundreds of watts on the other speaker.

 

[morricab]

I’ve spent a fair bit of time with both the Animas and the Primes and had each at home for several months as well. I can appreciate the Primes if the amp is right for them, but I love the Animas.

It was the same with my Rigolettos and La Bohemes...appreciated the Riggos but love the La Bohemes.

 

[Al M.]

Live, unamplified music doesn’t have harshness or hardness...these are reproduction traits...an instrument can make a wide range of sounds including unpleasant ones but it is the real thing still and cannot be compared to the hifi terms of “hard” or “harsh”, which are distortion superimposed on the original signal.

Sorry, I have to disagree. I hear hard sounds live all the time, especially from brass. But that also depends on venue and where you sit. Some venues always sound smooth, no matter what. I also found that in order to judge such things, I tend to be much more objective with eyes closed.

 

[Al M.]

But you like higher distortion stereos....

I disagree about brass, brass can hurt my ears sometimes.

Exactly.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hmm, try sitting at a live sports event with a band playing in yr ear, and say the sound isn't hard.

Esp if yr team is tanking LOL.

 

[Al M.]

Brass in a professionally played concert in my chosen seats doesn't. The one played sometimes on the London underground (subway) does

Yes, it depends on the acoustics. Yet the character of brass is also different in diverse concert halls, and different seats in them.

 

[manisandher]

Mani runs a pr in his second system. I believe he rates the bass better than his Animas (his wife is thus a fan), but not the same mids magic.

The Marvels in my second system have more extended bass than the Animas, for sure. But certainly NOT better. Down to 40Hz or so, the bass on the Animas is sublime - taut, fast, and tonally correct. A kick drum sounds just like a kick drum. In contrast, the bass on the Marvels is like that of 99% of speakers I've heard - extended, but woolly and vague in comparison.

If you have a pair of Animas and need more low-down extension, you either get a sub, or apply a bit of DSP. I've played around with the latter using Roon's DSP engine, and the Animas react really well to it.

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

Yes, and that is assuming NO thermal compression where you get 3db with each doubling of power...once things compress then that doubling of power might get you only 2db, or 1db or no db. Did you calculate for only 1 speaker? With a stereo pair you can add another 6db to the sensitivity and the drop at 3 meters will be less than you think because of the room. My guess is you can hit those 110db peaks with a bit over 1 watt on the Animas...but still like hundreds of watts on the other speaker.

I don't think the Crown Audio calculator takes account of room reinforcement, so yes, things wouldn't be quite as bad as it might suggest.

I've recorded my 9-year-old playing our modest upright piano, and the average SPL a couple of meters away is 70dB, with peaks of over 85dB. And this is just a piano...

Mani.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thoughts from anyone on this. Prior to getting my room, tt setup and Zu optimisation sorted, both classical and jazz were challenging to listen to. Now I can't get enough of how improved jazz sounds on the Zus. Classical has impvd but to a lesser extent. But both classical and jazz are acoustic, depend on timbral accuracy, and deep resolution and microdynamics. A jazz quartet surely puts the same demands on a system that cello, bass, viola and violin do. So, how are my Zus so compelling to me on jazz, but somewhat less compelling on classical?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Addendum, maybe this is all pressings dependent. Put a stellar sounding classical lp on, and the sound is, er, stellar. Yes, even on the Zus.

Seriously, maybe my classical lps provenance is not consistently as good as my jazz and rock lps.

And my Zus are truthfully revealing that.

Because, the Bach organ wks lp boxset I'm playing atm is getting my full attention (despite taking the time to post on WBF).

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, it depends on the acoustics. Yet the character of brass is also different in diverse concert halls, and different seats in them.

Yes but unless you are sitting extremely up close it will never hurt in any decent concert hall with a good performer.

 

[morricab]

Sorry, I have to disagree. I hear hard sounds live all the time, especially from brass. But that also depends on venue and where you sit. Some venues always sound smooth, no matter what. I also found that in order to judge such things, I tend to be much more objective with eyes closed.

No Al, there is a difference between what you are describing as "hard" or "harsh" live and what this means for reproduced music. Live, it might be loud, it might be sharp or piercing, it might even hurt your ears but not hard or harsh in the way a stereo system can sound, both of which are distortion characteristics that simply don't exist in a live, unamplified setting.

 

[Al M.]

No Al, there is a difference between what you are describing as "hard" or "harsh" live and what this means for reproduced music. Live, it might be loud, it might be sharp or piercing, it might even hurt your ears but not hard or harsh in the way a stereo system can sound, both of which are distortion characteristics that simply don't exist in a live, unamplified setting.

Yes, absolutely. There is a difference between artifacts from a stereo system, in addition often in a room that superimposes its own problems, and the hardness or even harshness of some live sounds. Yet a stereo must be able to properly reproduce these live sounds too. I often find that stereos sound too polished, with an inoffensive sound that is too polite compared to the real thing.

 

[morricab]

Yes, absolutely. There is a difference between artifacts from a stereo system, in addition often in a room that superimposes its own problems, and the hardness or even harshness of some live sounds. Yet a stereo must be able to properly reproduce these live sounds too. I often find that stereos sound too polished, with an inoffensive sound that is too polite compared to the real thing.

Have you ever heard a trumpet or violin in a normal sized room? It can be extremely loud but it doesn't have the same effect as a stereo straining to do the same. I have NEVER heard a stereo pressurize a room like a solo Stradivarius did in my 20 sq. meter room from 15 years ago...but it didn't sound hard or harsh...loud but still like one would expect a $4M violin to sound. The recordings were tough to make because I had to set the level low enough to have sufficient headroom for this sonic cannon...so they are a bit noisy as a result...nonetheless they are extremely alive recordings. Did them in pure R2R analog with a mono high end condenser microphone and good (but not great) mic preamp. In hindsight a better preamp would have made the match closer. We seem to be talking past each other because what is commonly known as hardness or harshness in terms of reproduction is not possible to have live. I hear now my daughter's trumpet playing (and squeaking, squawking and sometimes good clean notes) up close and it still doesn't exhibit hardness or harshness in the way a playback system can.

 

[DaveC]

The General's are in horns that help reduce the movement of the cone, to prevent the problems that single drivers have (other than often bad FR). That's another approach that works decently well. It's funny though, it makes small drivers into huge speakers.

I agree to a degree...

My wideband drivers use a horn to increase their sensitivity to well over 100 dB, both by allowing the driver to have it's natural rising frequency response and by using the horn to equalize the response, which boosts the 400 Hz + range to meet the output of higher frequencies. This also forms a fairly steep highpass acoustic crossover at 400 Hz which is augmented by a 1st order passive xo.

So efficiency is massively increased (about 10 dB vs the same driver on flat baffle modified to have a flat fr) and the motion of the cone is reduced massively vs running it full range, yet it's still not the equal of a big multi-way speaker on complex music. It will NEVER be, it's just the way it is.

Even with the General's pnoes, there is no possible way it'll play complex music as well. It'll certainly be better vs a similar driver on a flat baffle but complex music is never going to be as good as a speaker that's more ideally suited to it's reproduction, and with it's requirement to reproduce bass via a BLH design it's never going to produce mids and highs as clearly as if it didn't have to reproduce low bass.

Good enough? Maybe... it is for me a vast majority of the time but I'm not fooling myself that it's as good as my 3-way towers on complex music. It's literally physically impossible for a wideband driver to reproduce complex music as well. I don't care if it's Zu, pnoe, my own speaker, etc...


On another topic, I also agree on highs, I've never seen a flat FR above 15 kHz from a FRD.

 

[DaveC]

You have to actually make a more sustained effort to hear today's best FRD-based speakers.

Phil

Dude, I've heard a pretty large assortment of FRDs.... Zu as recently as 2017 (not a FRD though), Many, many Feastrex drivers, many Voxativ, I've owned AER BD3 and heard a couple other AERs, the entire Omega lineup and I currently own two Omega FRD speakers (these are the best value in the world by far)... most Fostex, and more... I could go on.

I've designed my own FRD-based wideband midrange driver for use in my own horn speaker. My speaker is far superior to any Zu, imo... But I could be biased...

 

[KeithR]

Hey guys - I woke up this morning to pages and pages of debate that is leagues away from this thread's original intent (and some of this is my fault). Let's move the topology, listening environments, Zu etc. to their respective other threads.

My next audition is Avantgarde Duo horns. I would enjoy reading other opinions on them vs. speakers I've auditioned to date as that would be more appropriate and helpful.

 

[Exlibris]

I demoed a few songs on an Avantgarde Duo Mezzo at a dealer's last summer. I don't know what the associated equipment was but the source was streamed digital.
Perhaps in the right room with the right equipment I'd enjoy this speaker.
I demoed Trios about 15 years ago and that experience was far better.