Zero Distortion: Altec Assault and the Magic of Misho (Audio Antiquary)

kodomo

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Altec midbass solutions Kedar has been talking about are creative and fitting for what they have been designed for but we should not forget that they are ported boxes with partial horn load. The dual flh solution Cessaro introduced or @christensenleif@msn.com 's solution is a step above these but they do not cover as low as these ported solutions and you need bass below them. It is always a choice. If you like what you are getting from ported mid-bass horns that is a very acceptable preference but they will have group delay around their port frequencies. For people who may not know, group delay is the time it takes for an electrical input signal to become an acoustical output. I have experienced with friends that this can actually become a preference for them and they translate it in " audiophile terminology" to a "less dry bass".

The second thing with the ported bass/midbass solutions is, they are hard to mate with bass without causing non-lineer disruptions in response. Maybe it is better to keep them cover it all down to 60hz or 50hz they work down to. Do not get me wrong, nearly everybody in the world who has some speakers with subs either is trying to make a ported speaker and a sealed sub, or a ported speaker and a ported sub work together, so even if you do, it is very normal and generally applied solution that people are happy with and not just people, mixing engineers as well. I have spent a fair amount of time around studios and had listened to a lots and lots of ported studio monitors at them. I still have three sets of ported studio monitors from those days in the garage. So, even some of the mixes are based upon that loose bass the engineers were hearing on their ported monitors and that effects how they mix...

As you dive deeper, you find no single truth, no single solution will work in all cases. I prefer the so called dry bass (less group delay). I have gone through these solutions one by one, listened and measured them and in time found my own preference. Physically it is a better measuring solution and is also one that can cover more different bases without adding character.

So what have I done. I am not going talk about mid-bass and over as I clearly prefer horn transfer function for my electric signals turn to acoustic output. I am now talking about bass.

1.I stopped using ported bass solutions. Yes, I heard Altec, TAD (I still have them at my storage) and I also hear a variety of modern pro audio woofers at my work, the problem I hear is still there. Once hearing it, makes my mind stick to it whenever I hear it. Is it no acceptable, definitely not, there are great ported speakers.

2.So ported over for me, next was sealed. Sealed bass solutions in itself were good with good group delay, nice response but making a strong monopole bass work with the room is not so easy. The boxes also become big and new problems like rigidity, bracing etc. occurs. If you can do it, and some can, go for it, it is a good solution.

3.For me I have felt a better solution can be found and I ended up with open baffle bass solutions. Our rooms schroeder frequency sets the point for our rooms to behave in two different ways. One resonating (below schroeder) the other reflecting (above schroeder). Mine is roughly around 100hz. As someone who has studied acoustics, when I treat a room, I know I need to treat these differently, so I decided to do the same with the speakers. Somehow figure 8 bass works better with the room. I am sorry not to have a complete explanation for this, I do have measurements on my room response to back me up but it is a singular case and is not enough to comment. Open baffle bass is inefficient and you need more drivers and power than other solutions, you will also need to calculate and put appropriate space behind them but if you can do these, they work very well with the room. I have also opted for the servo solutions for my open baffles which further helped with how they interact with the room. I ended up with a very uniform reverberation down to 40hz, no notes hang out more than others, a great blending with the mid-bass, more air at the bass registers etc.

So, I would suggest having OB bass below schroeder of your room, front loaded horns for the rest... Once again, this solution only applies if you have the appropriate space allocation. There are other solutions like horn bass, but as they are huge, they bring other sets of problems to deal with. The same goes for dual flh mid-bass, if they take too much vertical space, you will not have the rest of the channels at the correct height. So, pick and choose the problems which you would like to deal with, these were the ones I preferred :)
 

bonzo75

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The Altec is ported below 100. I heard Leif's and will feature it in a future write up. That, like Silvercore, is a different implementation of the dual woofer FLH, and there are different strategies w.r.t to the backside as well (closed, open, perforated membrane).

There are 1000s of Altecs. If you heard the wrong Altec, it won't tell you much. Cessaros never got their bass right, that is their weakest point, which is why audioquattr and Tang had to order a fresh set of woofers

OB below schroeder of room sounds like a good idea though never heard. There are people who do SLOBs below the FLH, or which the WE room at Munich had for below 40
 
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awsmone

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Have to agree with Kedar on this, even though he doesn’t own anything

altec can have stunning bass or bad is all implementation

i have heard both

including Cessaro which I have heard a number of versions

bass in a horn system can be challenging mainly because of the rest of the drivers can be so good

i recently dialled bass in an altec system to great satisfaction, but it is no simple matter

you need to take into account, the room dimensions

floor and walls

no small matter of juggling parameters

i have said to Kedar before , the equipment alone is not the solution, it’s only 30 percent

he continues to push an equipment only solution, which is trivial in terms of achieving very significant results

this is especially true once direct and reflected sound cross over over per room point is made

of course in bass and mid bass this is all you have :) its all about the room, and it’s power curve to the rest of the frequency spectrum
 
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kodomo

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Cessaro
There are 1000s of Altecs. If you heard the wrong Altec, it won't tell you much. Cessaros never got their bass right, that is their weakest point, which is why audioquattr and Tang had to order a fresh set of woofers

I heard most major Altec's and like I have written above, I don't think they sound bad, and I am talking about their ported and ported/horn hybrid solutions. I do not like ported/vented topologies in general and I explained the physical reason for this, which can be measured as well as heard but still be a preference. I have showed my friends via measurement which one is better according to me and they still preferred the higher group delay with according to them "richer" bass. It still is a preference and like I pointed out against my own liking that it may translate to a better match sometimes (though unpredictable) as it could replicate mixing engineers setup.

I was not talking about cessaro bass, it was the mid-bass I was talking about, same goes for Leif's mid-bass. The altec you propose combine midbass with bass via porting and that is what I do not like and think can be bettered.
 
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bonzo75

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What's the point of discussing in room, everyone has a different one - so unless you come up with the same system that can be configured to every room, let's carry on the equipment discussion with the baseline that room will always change things diferently.

That said, given a certain size, horns are more independent of room than other solutions. Room treatment is a totally different topic
 
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bonzo75

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Cessaro


I heard most major Altec's and like I have written above, I don't think they sound bad, and I am talking about their ported and ported/horn hybrid solutions. I do not like ported/vented topologies in general and I explained the physical reason for this, which can be measured as well as heard but still be a preference. I have showed my friends via measurement which one is better according to me and they still preferred the higher group delay with according to them "richer" bass. It still is a preference and like I pointed out against my own liking that it may translate to a better match sometimes (though unpredictable) as it could replicate mixing engineers setup.

I was not talking about cessaro bass, it was the mid-bass I was talking about, same goes for Leif's mid-bass. The altec you propose combine midbass with bass via porting and that is what I do not like and think can be bettered.

I will write my opinion on Leif's basshorns vs Altec basshorns when I write up on his system. Also one is the horn implementation the other is the driver

Cessaro midbass is a weak link.

It is not about Altec models. It is the implementation of those models. I am sure there are many bad 817s out there
 
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kodomo

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What's the point of discussing in room, everyone has a different one - so unless you come up with the same system that can be configured to every room, let's carry on the equipment discussion with the baseline that room will always change things diferently.

That said, given a certain size, horns are more independent of room than other solutions

It does not matter that everyone has a different room, they will be behaving the same way below their schroeder and %90 of rooms will have that point between 100hz to 160hz. I have come up with a system that can be configured for these rooms but I do not disclose it fully yet. You have seen a preview render of that system, it is a commercial endeavour so I think I should not talk about it here :)

ps. Guys, you got me wrong. I am an Altec fan!
 
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kodomo

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It seems there is a misunderstanding in this topic about bass and mid-bass.

Leif's bass horns are tapped horns but I guess you are talking about his dual flh mid-bass horns.

Cessaro mid-bass is not a weak link for me, its bass integration and solutions are its weak link for some people like us. Tang uses without a bass at all and is still happy. I have a very similar mid-bass and I am happy with its performance...
 

kodomo

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I suggest these three books to everyone involved.
 

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bonzo75

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It seems there is a misunderstanding in this topic about bass and mid-bass.

Leif's bass horns are tapped horns but I guess you are talking about his dual flh mid-bass horns.

Cessaro mid-bass is not a weak link for me, its bass integration and solutions are its weak link for some people like us. Tang uses without a bass at all and is still happy. I have a very similar mid-bass and I am happy with its performance...

I meant Midbass horns.
 
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Lee Henley

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Hi Kedar

Nice write up mate, just one thing to note that my amps are Empress Silver and not Neiro, I wished I could afford the Neiro amps, however they are still 6w SET amplifiers which run 2a3 valves.

Further more to second what Ked has said in the article, the preamp did work well with my amps and out performed my current pre which is the Hattor. The power amps worked to a degree with the Mummy's but did lack that certain amount of drive that I am accustomed too. Its a pity I didn't get the chance to hear the phono stage and SUT combo, maybe in the future who knows.

Here are a few pics from the day

Untitled by henleymajor, on Flickr

Untitled by henleymajor, on Flickr

Here is what the system looks like normal, this time with the Lampizator TRP which at the time of the visit was not with us.

Untitled by henleymajor, on Flickr

Empress Silver

Untitled by henleymajor, on Flickr



Lee
 

kodomo

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Hi Kedar

Nice write up mate, just one thing to note that my amps are Empress Silver and not Neiro, I wished I could afford the Neiro amps, however they are still 6w SET amplifiers which run 2a3 valves.

Further more to second what Ked has said in the article, the preamp did work well with my amps and out performed my current pre which is the Hattor. The power amps worked to a degree with the Mummy's but did lack that certain amount of drive that I am accustomed too. Its a pity I didn't get the chance to hear the phono stage and SUT combo, maybe in the future who knows.

Here are a few pics from the day

Untitled by henleymajor, on Flickr

Untitled by henleymajor, on Flickr

Here is what the system looks like normal, this time with the Lampizator TRP which at the time of the visit was not with us.

Untitled by henleymajor, on Flickr

Empress Silver

Untitled by henleymajor, on Flickr



Lee

I am very interested on your impressions of the pre. I also use a custom made from hattor with AMRG Amtrans resistors, balanced with dual adjustable output, so 4 units in one box.

I am quite set on Emia Balanced Silver autoformer remote but the price and what I am hearing on Misho's preamp are very tempting!
 

bonzo75

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I am very interested on your impressions of the pre. I also use a custom made from hattor with AMRG Amtrans resistors, balanced with dual adjustable output, so 4 units in one box.

I am quite set on Emia Balanced Silver autoformer remote but the price and what I am hearing on Misho's preamp are very tempting!

I would love to hear the Emia gear.
 

Lee Henley

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I am very interested on your impressions of the pre. I also use a custom made from hattor with AMRG Amtrans resistors, balanced with dual adjustable output, so 4 units in one box.

I am quite set on Emia Balanced Silver autoformer remote but the price and what I am hearing on Misho's preamp are very tempting!

The preamp is a very very good preamp, I cant recall if it had remote control or not, if it did we didnt use it on the day. Since Ked last visited me I have managed to have a play with a Dave Slagle Autoformer which I believe is the basis for the Emia, have to say the Slagle is an awesome pre for not much money but did not have a remote control which at the moment is an issue for myself when I am streaming from the Lampi. When I move the system around and have access to the pre from my seating position then I will revisit preamps that don't require a remote.

Perhaps an option would be to try a Slagle Autoformer, the one I had is only the basic model with dual volume control and 23 steps IIRC.

Audiophile Bill reccomended to me the Emia which if I could get a loan model to try out I would be tempted, from what I can gather the Emia is mail order from America only with no UK dealers so I would not be able to try before I buy.

Lee
 
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Lee Henley

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kodomo

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What's the point of discussing in room, everyone has a different one - so unless you come up with the same system that can be configured to every room, let's carry on the equipment discussion with the baseline that room will always change things diferently.

That said, given a certain size, horns are more independent of room than other solutions. Room treatment is a totally different topic

I am sorry to say, if you are talking about a bass solution, omitting the room is out of question. It works with the room and the response is completely dependent on their interaction. As long as we are talking about what is below a rooms Schroeder frequency tt would not even matter if it was a huge bass horn.
 
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Audiophile Bill

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It seems there is a misunderstanding in this topic about bass and mid-bass.

Leif's bass horns are tapped horns but I guess you are talking about his dual flh mid-bass horns.

Cessaro mid-bass is not a weak link for me, its bass integration and solutions are its weak link for some people like us. Tang uses without a bass at all and is still happy. I have a very similar mid-bass and I am happy with its performance...

Hi Sami,

Thanks for your comments - very useful.

Please could you send me some graphs of the issue you describe with the horn / port point. Makes sense just wanted to see how much of a mess it is.

Best.
 

Tango

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Cessaro mid-bass is not a weak link for me, its bass integration and solutions are its weak link for some people like us. Tang uses without a bass at all and is still happy. I have a very similar mid-bass and I am happy with its performance...

Yes. I am very happy. Ked talks 90% of mid-bass and different driver these days. The way I see it his definition of best mid-bass is different from mine, Gian's or ddk's. I am not experience enough to argue with him and just accept what he says. He sure heard a lot of drivers from different systems. I am adding the bass horn just to see what kind of adventure it takes me to ....but mostly for entertaining you guys. ;)
 

bonzo75

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Yes. I am very happy. Ked talks 90% of mid-bass and different driver these days. The way I see it his definition of best mid-bass is different from mine, Gian's or ddk's. I am not experience enough to argue with him and just accept what he says. He sure heard a lot of drivers from different systems. I am adding the bass horn just to see what kind of adventure it takes me to ....but mostly for entertaining you guys. ;)

No It's not. Gian is well aware that he has to improve his midbass, and his choices of equipment are often towards doing that, as well as the midbass solution he is planning. Whenever I share videos with you, you seem focused more on the transparency and clean factor, which has to do with the higher mids and above, and is just how you have got used to your horn, because that, and not the midbass, is the strength of your horn. That is also the difference that I mentioned in my note between Altec and the beryllium drivers, but it has to do with the higher mids and above, not the midbass and below.
 

kodomo

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Hi Sami,

Thanks for your comments - very useful.

Please could you send me some graphs of the issue you describe with the horn / port point. Makes sense just wanted to see how much of a mess it is.

Best.

Neumann has some good measurements showing the effect of port, not with horns but ports behave the same way. Here they are;

First the spl/freq. response if they had the same cutoff
12_24buf.gif

The group delay
12_24bug.gif

here another vented cabinet with lower cutoff is introduced
The spl/freq response
12_24_2.gif

The group delay
12_24gd.gif
 

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