Zero Distortion: Altec Assault and the Magic of Misho (Audio Antiquary)

[Folsom]

An article and some photos, one of which is here. https://6moons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourburen2/3.html

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So it's horn loaded and partially reflex, partly OB...

The side openings are reflex, and will make energy go forward that wraps around coming out of the driver rear. But the open back can be used to tune the speaker a bit by affecting the backwave pressure (damping). It could be run horn-reflex and fully open in the rear if you wanted but the driver likely sound better with some back pressure.

 

[bonzo75]

Ok Ked. Ignore that Ron has been talking about dynamic and planars etc. I mean, I don't even really care, I just think it's silly to try to give the impression the money into it is the result of the quality in sound. If that were the case I doubt you'd be gaga over the little Tannoy speakers. Shame they aren't making them still the way they were....

No I mentioned that to Ron because he kept mentioning speakers which have no reason to be expensive except they have to pay for high marketing cost, distribution margins, and for keeping afloat a company. I was just making a point on how margins are compared to the components they use. They will just not be able to compete with the decades long experience R&D and funding that has been put into the Lansing history. Bart Locanthi made the best drivers in Altec, JBL, then TAD. Pioneer gave him unlimited budget to develop the best drivers. TAD 4003 was his last. There is a reason it is so expensive. Another engineer from Altec went on to Gauss, and even Radians are made by ex Altec. There is an exception like AER which is not ex-Altec

 

[microstrip]

Also cost of components in any of these horns will be far higher than what goes into the speakers you are talking about, as is the decades long expertise that has gone into each driver and design

Although I would seriously consider a DIY approach if I had a lot of free time, there is a point (between others) that bothers me. I see that the several people you refer have long time experience in their designs and in spite of the "decades long expertise that has gone into each driver and design" it is extremely easy for a non expert to kill a project with a small detail. For example, David (DDK) told us that in spite of all his knowledge he could not duplicate his Bionors. I can imagine that small details are critical in such project. How sure are you that you can reproduce these fantastic sounding designs? BTW, how long do you thing it will take to assemble such a system?

 

[bonzo75]

is there some similarity in design to the Vox Olympians? sorry...technically very ignorant, so just asking based on looking at the upper half here vs the GIP photo above...

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Vox uses the VItavox S2 for mids, which you can use for this. Cost is 7k for the drivers. Vox also uses TAD tweeters, which is an option. As I mentioned in my reply to Ron, you can use a multicell horn, a circular horn, or radial. The Vox mids horn looks radial. At least in Munich to me it sounds very disjoint with the bass and it uses a single 15 inch driver, so not a dual woofer FLH. Like Tang's it uses a small TAD compression driver and the TAD supertweeter for the highs above the main midrange driver. Most of the cost is for aesthetics.

 

[bonzo75]

Although I would seriously consider a DIY approach if I had a lot of free time, there is a point (between others) that bothers me. I see that the several people you refer have long time experience in their designs and in spite of the "decades long expertise that has gone into each driver and design" it is extremely easy for a non expert to kill a project with a small detail. For example, David (DDK) told us that in spite of all his knowledge he could not duplicate his Bionors. I can imagine that small details are critical in such project. How sure are you that you can reproduce these fantastic sounding designs? BTW, how long do you thing it will take to assemble such a system?

Like I said, I won't build it myself, I will assemble it. An analogy is, Tang calls David to set up his TT, and then adds a tonearm from another manufacturer, a cartridge from a third, and makes them play. Initially David sets it up for him, then Tang changes things around, but if he screws up, he has a reference to go back to.

The biggest mistake you can do in DIY is try to build the first one yourself. So I have no intentions of making my own cabinet myself, or building my own crossover myself. I will only screw things in and connect cables.

Then I will learn measurements and change things around, but will always have a reference to go back to if I f up.

 

[microstrip]

Like I said, I won't build it myself, I will assemble it. An analogy is, Tang calls David to set up his TT, and then adds a tonearm from another manufacturer, a cartridge from a third, and makes them play. Initially David sets it up for him, then Tang changes things around, but if he screws up, he has a reference to go back to.

The biggest mistake you can do in DIY is try to build the first one yourself. So I have no intentions of making my own cabinet myself, or building my own crossover myself. I will only screw things in and connect cables.

Then I will learn measurements and change things around, but will always have a reference to go back to if I f up.

Are you buying the cabinets and crossovers from Audio Antiquary?

 

[LL21]

Vox uses the VItavox S2 for mids, which you can use for this. Cost is 7k for the drivers. Vox also uses TAD tweeters, which is an option. As I mentioned in my reply to Ron, you can use a multicell horn, a circular horn, or radial. The Vox mids horn looks radial. At least in Munich to me it sounds very disjoint with the bass and it uses a single 15 inch driver, so not a dual woofer FLH. Like Tang's it uses a small TAD compression driver and the TAD supertweeter for the highs above the main midrange driver. Most of the cost is for aesthetics.

Cool...look forward to watching your speakers come to life...

 

[bonzo75]

Are you buying the cabinets and crossovers from Audio Antiquary?

I will be getting from someone but rather not say it till I do.

 

[bonzo75]

Cool...look forward to watching your speakers come to life...

The Radial horns usually emphasize horizontal dispersion at the cost of vertical. So for those who like height, one thing to avoid

 

[Folsom]

No I mentioned that to Ron because he kept mentioning speakers which have no reason to be expensive except they have to pay for high marketing cost, distribution margins, and for keeping afloat a company. I was just making a point on how margins are compared to the components they use. They will just not be able to compete with the decades long experience R&D and funding that has been put into the Lansing history. Bart Locanthi made the best drivers in Altec, JBL, then TAD. Pioneer gave him unlimited budget to develop the best drivers. TAD 4003 was his last. There is a reason it is so expensive. Another engineer from Altec went on to Gauss, and even Radians are made by ex Altec. There is an exception like AER which is not ex-Altec

I think what you mean is that they've all invested in everything but actual sound quality. They invest in what audiophile assume will equal good sound and for most of them it isn't true. I don't hate on all dynamic speakers, but I think most aren't so good. To say that you need large driver or 4" voice coils... I don't completely agree, but the reason one would say that is very real.

 

[KeithR]

It's possible to do an MTM as single order.

And 100dbs into 8 ohms?

I can’t think of a single commercial speaker like this. Maybe I’m wrong though.

 

[bonzo75]

I think what you mean is that they've all invested in everything but actual sound quality. They invest in what audiophile assume will equal good sound and for most of them it isn't true. I don't hate on all dynamic speakers, but I think most aren't so good. To say that you need large driver or 4" voice coils... I'm not completely sure I agree, but the reason one would say that is very real.

They are good organisations. Like Coke. They can sell sugared water and be the best firm in the world.

 

[Folsom]

The biggest mistake you can do in DIY is try to build the first one yourself. So I have no intentions of making my own cabinet myself, or building my own crossover myself. I will only screw things in and connect cables.

Then I will learn measurements and change things around, but will always have a reference to go back to if I f up.

I answer A LOT of emails on assembling my PCB boards. It is best to ask questions, get help for sure.

This is the path that makes sense for a crossover, learning to measure then having someone help you from there.

 

[KeithR]

is there some similarity in design to the Vox Olympians? sorry...technically very ignorant, so just asking based on looking at the upper half here vs the GIP photo above...

View attachment 63330

Must suck as it does t have an MTM design.

 

[Folsom]

And 100dbs into 8 ohms?

I can’t think of a single commercial speaker like this. Maybe I’m wrong though.

Why not? It's possible. The only thing you have to do is make the tweeter not hotter than the woofers, if they can cross without too much comb filtering.

But you also need a tweeter that won't explode from playing too low.

All first order crossovers are capacitor + resistor, none of them skip the resistor. No one talks about a resistor though because it doesn't change phase, where as capacitors and inductors do have an affect on phase.

 

[bonzo75]

is there some similarity in design to the Vox Olympians? sorry...technically very ignorant, so just asking based on looking at the upper half here vs the GIP photo above...

View attachment 63330

The similarity to GIP is the Radial horn for the mids

 

[jdza]

Bonzo

You are certainly welcome to your ideas and opinions,even your unique interpretation of science but your continuing re-imagination of the history of these,once proud , companies leaves me a little perturbed. The last living chief of Altec Lansing died almost two weeks ago. He never forgot that it was on his watch that the once proud company,gutted by a spark plug manufacturer , had to close the doors. Less than a year ago he stood in my lounge,poked his wife in the ribs and grinningly pointed at the bass drivers deep in the horn " They're Altec ,you know"

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo

You are certainly welcome to your ideas and opinions,even your unique interpretation of science but your continuing re-imagination of the history of these,once proud , companies leaves me a little perturbed. The last living chief of Altec Lansing died almost two weeks ago. He never forgot that it was on his watch that the once proud company,gutted by a spark plug manufacturer , had to close the doors. Less than a year ago he stood in my lounge,poked his wife in the ribs and grinningly pointed at the bass drivers deep in the horn " They're Altec ,you know"

Yes, Altec when bankrupt, I mentioned that Bart left for jbl and TAD. Have you heard the Radian.950? They are my current production favorite drivers after the AER BD5. They are similar in TAD to the sound. They trace back to the Renkus Heinz drivers and and to Altec. I prefer their mids and highs to Altec

 

[bonzo75]

Why not? It's possible. The only thing you have to do is make the tweeter not hotter than the woofers, if they can cross without too much comb filtering.

But you also need a tweeter that won't explode from playing too low.

All first order crossovers are capacitor + resistor, none of them skip the resistor. No one talks about a resistor though because it doesn't change phase, where as capacitors and inductors do have an affect on phase.

Silvercore's crossover has no capacitor, he uses his hand wound inductor in parallel

 

[Folsom]

Silvercore's crossover has no capacitor, he uses his hand wound inductor in parallel

I'd have to see the schematic or something for that to mean much. A crossover in parallel with a tweeter and nothing else in the circuit doesn't sound very useful. But also I'd have to know the frequency response of the tweeter etc.