Alexx V arrive in NJ
- Thread starter marty
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Even on the highest feed back setting this amp seems not to be a low impedance powerhouse.
So may be on 20 % even 3 ohms is a problem
As taken from the stereophile CH M 1.1 review
The CH Precision M1.1 is a powerful amplifier, but its measured performance is heavily dependent on the amount of global negative feedback selected. A measurement freak such as I would choose 100% feedback, but I note that Michael found 20% feedback to be the sweet spot when it came to the M1.1's sound quality. And note that no matter the percentage of feedback, this amplifier is more comfortable driving impedances higher than 2 ohms.—John Atkinson
The shortfall in maximum output power will not be an issue with typical loudspeakers and rooms, but it did puzzle me.
Footnote 2: CH Precision says the meter on the M1.1 shows peak power, not RMS power; the rest of the discrepancy they attribute to a measuring technique that avoids adding components in series with the output signal.
So may be on 20 % even 3 ohms is a problem
As taken from the stereophile CH M 1.1 review
The CH Precision M1.1 is a powerful amplifier, but its measured performance is heavily dependent on the amount of global negative feedback selected. A measurement freak such as I would choose 100% feedback, but I note that Michael found 20% feedback to be the sweet spot when it came to the M1.1's sound quality. And note that no matter the percentage of feedback, this amplifier is more comfortable driving impedances higher than 2 ohms.—John Atkinson
The shortfall in maximum output power will not be an issue with typical loudspeakers and rooms, but it did puzzle me.
Footnote 2: CH Precision says the meter on the M1.1 shows peak power, not RMS power; the rest of the discrepancy they attribute to a measuring technique that avoids adding components in series with the output signal.
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Speaker wire to fix a $200K amplifier?
[obnoxious, sarcastic comments deleted]
It appears that the amplifier’s damping factor, or lack off, is the real issue here.
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I thought he's already heard the amps that work, his stand in Parasounds.
Maybe when the answer is right in front of you, stop asking more Qs.
Maybe when the answer is right in front of you, stop asking more Qs.
The hobby is about questions, not answers. Any artist always stretches the boundaries, does not sit still in his cocoon
But then again, your room is rather a phone booth than a gymnasium if I interpret the pics correctly
Some phone booths are deceptively large!
It seems rather useless to ask questions if there are no answers. Even a temporary answer is still an answer, isn't it?
Don't laugh, some cables I've used in the past acts like a tourniquet but probably not the case here. One off top of my head is Zu.
I don't think problem is M10 lacking bass but Marty just doesn't like the sound with NF. Didn't Marty said with 15% NF, bass was adequate but sound hardened. Parasound JC1+ has NF. I can't think of a high power SS amp without NF or ability to adjust like CH. It's possible CH optimized / voiced operating with zero NF?
I would not rule out CH with Wilson. Probably just not Marty's cup of tea. Elliot, didn't you get a chance to hear M10 with Alexx V at Marty's house with different NF settings?
Why in this subjective hobby would anyone rule out anything (assuming, of course, that basic electrical matching requirements are satisfied), or attempt to divine a conclusion of general applicability, on the basis of one particular audiophile's personal preference (on the basis of one data point)?
Ked, we listen to artists. Of course, there are no shortage of piss artists in this hobby.
Gryphon Mephisto has no negative feedback and an iron grip on the woofers.
The CH's adjustability is double edged. Sure it is a great feature but it gives knobs to turn that influence the sound. This can lead to unrest in the audiophile mind.
The Heisenberg may be a nice option. The Alexx V is bouncing around between 2-3 ohms from 60Hz to 2KHz. This is a punishing load for any amplifier. GTT audio uses Audionet to drive the YG Sonja which is also places a large demand on the amplifier. So a good chance that it works.
I would not rule out CH with Wilson. Probably just not Marty's cup of tea. Elliot, didn't you get a chance to hear M10 with Alexx V at Marty's house with different NF settings?
No I did not. We didn't have a lot of time but I did listen for around 60-90 minutes. This is Marty's house, his system, his likes and dislikes. I now have the M-10 in my showroom and ordered the extra channel boards to convert both of them to Stereo amplifiers. I will get to listen to that in my system shortly. I plan to keep one and to sell the other one. I think someone will be happy since they have a long wait time.
Marty knows what he wants and my opinion, even if I had one, about his system is meaningless to him.
I don't have any familiarity with the system nor his room nor exactly what is important to him. We all make choices to get the result we desire. Marty and I could go to the same great steakhouse ( Peter Luger please LOL) and both have a great meal and NOT order the same thing. Maybe he is a rare guy, maybe he prefers porterhouse none of this makes one right and the other wrong. There is no perfect and simple answers we all do the best for us.
So I listened to a great system and my comment to Marty was " I hope the next amplifier sounds better than this one" and smiled. I liked what I heard. I again say that this is my not system, not my room, and not exactly what music I listen to.
I know there is a review coming ( take that for what it is worth) with Wilson speakers and CH 10 series. There have been others with 10 series on other products as well.
I will gladly say what I feel on my system once I get a chance to do some listening to the M10. I have listened to the M1.1, JC1+, Halcro Eclipse, and shortly the M10 stereo in my system in my room . I am very familiar with the first three and look forward to the M10 .
No I did not. We didn't have a lot of time but I did listen for around 60-90 minutes. This is Marty's house, his system, his likes and dislikes. I now have the M-10 in my showroom and ordered the extra channel boards to convert both of them to Stereo amplifiers. I will get to listen to that in my system shortly. I plan to keep one and to sell the other one. I think someone will be happy since they have a long wait time.
Marty knows what he wants and my opinion, even if I had one, about his system is meaningless to him.
I don't have any familiarity with the system nor his room nor exactly what is important to him. We all make choices to get the result we desire. Marty and I could go to the same great steakhouse ( Peter Luger please LOL) and both have a great meal and NOT order the same thing. Maybe he is a rare guy, maybe he prefers porterhouse none of this makes one right and the other wrong. There is no perfect and simple answers we all do the best for us.
So I listened to a great system and my comment to Marty was " I hope the next amplifier sounds better than this one" and smiled. I liked what I heard. I again say that this is my not system, not my room, and not exactly what music I listen to.
I know there is a review coming ( take that for what it is worth) with Wilson speakers and CH 10 series. There have been others with 10 series on other products as well.
I will gladly say what I feel on my system once I get a chance to do some listening to the M10. I have listened to the M1.1, JC1+, Halcro Eclipse, and shortly the M10 stereo in my system in my room . I am very familiar with the first three and look forward to the M10 .
At this level and (weight of those amps ) what would it hurt to try let's say the new AQ speaker cables? Specifically, the Zero-Tech ones.
Easier than gear swapping large monoblocks.
ZERO-TECH (NO DEFINED CHARACTERISTIC-IMPEDANCE) FOR UNCOMPRESSED CURRENT TRANSFER AND LINEAR NOISE-DISSIPATION
The only complete way to eliminate characteristic-impedance mismatches between a cable and the attached source and load is for the cable not to have any fixed characteristic-impedance value. ZERO-Tech accomplishes this by eliminating interaction between the insulation (dielectric) and the cable’s conductors—enabling uncompressed current transfer. All-important transient current is unrestricted, and RF Noise-Dissipation is linearized (consistent octave to octave).Being based in US, you can borrow from The Cable Co.
Does the output impedance of a respective amplifier correlate to the damping factor which thus contributes to the grip on the woofers?
Elliot, these comments make a lot of sense. Thank you. Do you have any plans to listen to the mono version of the M 10 in your system before you get the boards to convert them to stereo units? I am sure I and others I would be interested in reading comparative thoughts between the two versions.
Yes. Output impedance and damping factor are two ways of saying the same thing.
What Marty reported makes sense based on the reputation off the CH Precision’s claim to fame that they do not sound like typical solid-state amplifiers and have swayed many tube amp lovers over.
Solid-state amplifiers are voltage-source devices that keep the voltage constant regardless of variances in the load impedance. By definition voltage-source devices have a very high damping factor. Vacuum tube amplifiers are a current-source devices that keep the current constant regardless of variances in the load impedance. By definition current-source devices have a very low damping factor.
A neat trick to make a solid-state amplifier sound like a tube amplifier is to raise the amplifier’s output impedance, which lowers its damping factor. When the output impedance is high enough, relative to the speaker's impedance, the amplifier will generate an audible distortion that mimics the warmth of tube sound.
Multi-driver speakers like the Wilson Audio’s Alexx V’s, like the majority of modern speakers, are meant to be driven by voltage-source, or solid-state, amplifiers with high damping factor to deal with their impedance curves, with dips low into the 1 to 3 Ohm range. Vacuum tube, current-source, amplifiers work best with speakers with a flat impedance curve.
As can be seen, this is a compromise in the design in order to achieve the CH Precision sound. CH Precision like most high-end amplifiers manufacturers are in the business of voicing their amplifiers to differentiate themselves in the market place and no longer interested in the “straight-wire with gain“ purist’s pursuits of “old hi-fi” and professional instrumentation amplifiers manufacturers for the scientific and professional audio markets.
Marty can try a simple experiment of adding a 1 Ohm 100 Watt, or with a higher power rating if he can source it, resistor in series on the positive speaker lead of the Parasound JC-1+ output and he will get that CH Precision sound but at the expense of damping factor, less bass driver control.
The ideal amp for Marty is the old Bob Carver Sunfire amplifiers, which have both the voltage-source and current-source outputs for each channel. These amplifiers are ideal for driving the bass drivers with the voltage-source output and the mids-tweeter drivers with the current-source output.
I realize that a Sunfire amplifier isn’t as sexy or has the same pride-in-ownership factor of $200K Swiss-made CH Precision amplifiers but if you value sound quality over panache then there are solutions out there. I’m sure that some astute high-end manufacturer will read this, or the like, and will produce a $250K “Sunfire“ amplifier wrapped in heavy slabs of billet aluminum to fill the void and need for luxury penial extension so many in this hobby seek.
Solid-state amplifiers are voltage-source devices that keep the voltage constant regardless of variances in the load impedance. By definition voltage-source devices have a very high damping factor. Vacuum tube amplifiers are a current-source devices that keep the current constant regardless of variances in the load impedance. By definition current-source devices have a very low damping factor.
A neat trick to make a solid-state amplifier sound like a tube amplifier is to raise the amplifier’s output impedance, which lowers its damping factor. When the output impedance is high enough, relative to the speaker's impedance, the amplifier will generate an audible distortion that mimics the warmth of tube sound.
Multi-driver speakers like the Wilson Audio’s Alexx V’s, like the majority of modern speakers, are meant to be driven by voltage-source, or solid-state, amplifiers with high damping factor to deal with their impedance curves, with dips low into the 1 to 3 Ohm range. Vacuum tube, current-source, amplifiers work best with speakers with a flat impedance curve.
As can be seen, this is a compromise in the design in order to achieve the CH Precision sound. CH Precision like most high-end amplifiers manufacturers are in the business of voicing their amplifiers to differentiate themselves in the market place and no longer interested in the “straight-wire with gain“ purist’s pursuits of “old hi-fi” and professional instrumentation amplifiers manufacturers for the scientific and professional audio markets.
Marty can try a simple experiment of adding a 1 Ohm 100 Watt, or with a higher power rating if he can source it, resistor in series on the positive speaker lead of the Parasound JC-1+ output and he will get that CH Precision sound but at the expense of damping factor, less bass driver control.
The ideal amp for Marty is the old Bob Carver Sunfire amplifiers, which have both the voltage-source and current-source outputs for each channel. These amplifiers are ideal for driving the bass drivers with the voltage-source output and the mids-tweeter drivers with the current-source output.
I realize that a Sunfire amplifier isn’t as sexy or has the same pride-in-ownership factor of $200K Swiss-made CH Precision amplifiers but if you value sound quality over panache then there are solutions out there. I’m sure that some astute high-end manufacturer will read this, or the like, and will produce a $250K “Sunfire“ amplifier wrapped in heavy slabs of billet aluminum to fill the void and need for luxury penial extension so many in this hobby seek.
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The discussion raises some interesting points. Some are more easily dismissed (i.e. the role of speaker wire) while others may be more relevant (the mental status of Ian and me, ha!). But one parameter that might be most relevant in sorting things is the issue of amplifier damping factor.
Damping factor is the ratio of the rated impedance of the loudspeaker to the source impedance. In solid state amplifiers, the damping factor usually has a maximum value at low frequencies. A quick read in Wikipedia is informative and provides many fine points and provides comments from such luminaries such as Toole, Atkinson and Pass. The “In Practice” section is particularly relevant. However, the one thing that is missing when considering amplifier performance comparatively is the actual reported damping factor for the JC1+ and M10 (or its relevant cousin, amplifier output impedance).
Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find it for the M10. The damping factor of the JC1+ is specified as >1200 @ 20Hz. Wouldn’t that be nice to have?
Before we bang our heads on the wall any further, I suggest this discussion come to a pause as we try to contemplate why I felt that the bass performance of the JC1+ was preferred to the M10. It just seems pointless to speculate endlessly until this information is known, unless of course, you are into head banging. (It's what audiophiles do! Saves wear and tear on the ears.)
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