More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

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Its a quiet morning with no outstanding jobs, at least non that I cant put off for a while longer, so I thought you may be interested in the following.

I have spent the past 4 years developing a hi-fi system for streaming. I have over 50 years experience in hi-fi and reasonable theoretical knowledge of networking standards from a time in my career I managed the global ‘Networked Laboratory’ strategy for a vendor of complex laboratory instrumentation. But, even so, 4 years ago I had no knowledge whatsoever in terms of computer based hi-fi. My system at the time was a fully balanced, CD-based all vacuum tube system of very good repute. I was just sick of the heat in summer and the occasional wobblers that an all-tube system is prone to throw. And most important, I wanted all the benefits of high quality unlimited recordings for little money as I was running out of convenient storage space for more CDs.

Knowing very little, I did 3 things. I bought a simple networked speaker, joined a series of on-line webinars about networking, specifically domestic, local area networking and internet and I started reading everything I could find in the DIY community about the subject. Pretty early on I discovered the potential that streaming offers….I also found a few generous souls who were both dedicated audiophiles and IT specialists and I let those few guys help me with some early decisions and advice.

What I found was an area of hi-fi that just kept on rewarding. Not just that. It was predictable. With the right set up I could make improvements that delivered exactly what I expected and very often a lot more. It took all of the doubt out of upgrading and made it a carefully planned and precise exercise of improving SQ. I standardised power supplies, cabling, DC cabling, vibration control and the network topology which seemed to multiply the improvements. Running in became a matter of waiting for major improvements to integrate with the rest of the sonic picture to deliver a holistic improvement, which then built on one another to deliver very special sonics. Over the years I‘ve used top class horns, mulitiple subwoofers, top class ported, sealed and ABR’d speakers with a number of different amplifiers and ancillaries, based on both CD and vinyl, yet I’ve never ever owned a system that had such deeply satifying dynamics, physical and musical bass, treble extremes, spatial 4 dimensional attributes etc. as the system I have today. Note that Im talking about my preference and my judgement. Others may well differ, depending on their experience and background

BUT, all this was developed mostly during the Covid pandemic, so I’d never compared my system with anything, let alone top performers like the Taiko Extreme. I was extremely happy with the results I was getting, but I had no idea how they compared to the most recent high end systems. For all I knew I was just a happy punter living an illusion. Then last June, between Covid waves came the North West Audio Show, so on the Saturday morning I jumped into my car and drove the 140 miles for a good listen. Now I already said I’d had 50+ years experience in hi-fi, so I know that shows are amongst the very worst environments to judge hi-fi. Never-the -less I was still interested, so I set off to visit each room in turn. In order to remain and listen, I expected to find some degree of 4 dimensionality and an attraction to the music. If the music clearly came from 2 loudspeakers and sounded like hi-fi I simply moved on.
What was clear as I toured from room to room was that while the show was beautifully organised, it provided exhibitors with a truly awful set of environmental conditions and challenges.
The mains was hotel mains and no matter what was plugged in it was clearly overloaded
Each room appeared to have a few wall wart chargers doing iPads, mobile phones, lap tops etc.
Many exhibitors were streaming local files, some were playing vinyl, very few were trying remote streaming on what must have been clearly overloaded hotel bandwidth. I’ve no idea how well any remote connections were working but we’re talking EMI and RFI soup so I imagine not great.
Long story short, I was back in my car a looking for lunch by 13.00. I’d actually remained in 4 rooms for a listen. Interestingly all 4 rooms were based on 2 way speakers, where at least the bass was well integrated. In many other rooms, the bass, while solid and deep seemed to be an end in itself judged by how it drew the listeners’ attention to the detriment of the rest of the music.
So what’s my conclusion? Am I boasting that my system is the best? I hope not as that’s not my intent, nor am I so naive. If I could spend more my system could be a lot better, as could a LOT of fellow audiophiles’ systems. What I am however saying is that my set up, the environment in which I play my music and use to create my music IS miles better than anything at that show. My mains is better, much much better, my EMI and RFI levels are much, much lower, my vibration levels are all managed, I have tons of bandwidth and very little network traffic on my hi-fi network and the rest of my network is designed not to interfere with my hi-fi. I use optimum power supplies and cable looms, my environment is quiet, wi-fi is set up to isolate without interfering, my room and listening position are all system optimised. As a result, nothing at that show even approached the results I’m getting from streaming. The environment was just way too compromised, too noisy, too under resourced, too rich in room anomalies, too contaminated.
So can I say that my gear is better than anything at the show? Well I could but it would be a pretty stupid statement, given that I could take some of what was at the show and set it up optimally. And that, in a nutshell is what’s wrong with statements like ‘analog is better than streaming‘. Essentially what we’re comparing is two lengths of string and we all know that old adage.
 
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We need to keep in mind a cheap CD player is the great great grandchild of a technology given a lot of high level and highly funded developments until the majority of issues were solved. It comes from a much better environment that is fairly inclusive. Another data point might be found in how well slim external optical drives function compared to fairly heavy weight legacy contenders. Construction here even further violates many of the principles we hold as fundamental.

Streaming relies on sophisticated backend infrastructure to carry the weight. Thus far developments have been conditioned towards improvements on the industrial side. My feeling is the next step in this chain where audio improvements would need to arrive surrounds local ISP's [ed. IS to ISP] delivery of streaming content. It should be obvious how much variance there is here to anyone caring enough to examine their network as fully as is depicted in this thread.

One does need to retain appreciation of the forest from the trees. Sometimes the whole tract is a preserve to be taken in without visually petting each standout representative of flora or fauna in kind.
 
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Again, just a stream of consciousness.

There’s one thing I’ve learned about networking. Each stage is dramatically affected by its power supply, which is essentially the voice of the network. More than anything power supply quality impacts the quality and PRESENTATION of the music. Written big…..power supplies create the music and its presentation and they have a huge influence on how it all sounds. So power supplies must be super quiet, super refined with a lot of extra capacity….headroom, so music flows through effortlessly without interruption, without loss, without noise, isolated from its immediate electromagnetic past (what was added or removed electrically prior to reaching you). The point is, I am not trying to play THE signal that is sent from Qobuz or whoever….I’m obviously playing a multi transition bit-stream….and the fact that the signal gets reconstructed gives me the opportunity to intervene and improve the quality of what’s being constructed according to ideal physical layer specs. In one way or another I improve the specification of things like voltage accuracy, noise content, timing accuracy, vibration levels, cable losses, EMI addition, RFI Levels, power supply impedance etc. .
Now here’s the crux of the above. Given what’s just been said about power supplies, would you feel it would be sensible to spend several thousand dollars on the power supply for say a $250 router or $150 bridge? I have done exactly this, several times in fact, and each time I got back more gain in SQ than the supply cost. I added what some would consider expensive DC cables, handmade by Nenon, whose advice and help I truly value. These cables for sure add something to the final sound. An ease, a purity, a transparency, an incredibly clear spatial performance with tremendous detail and finesse, a sense of rightness that allows me the ability to discern the acoustic footprint of every note. I can hear different instruments with different acoustics all contributing to the overall sonic 4 D picture. Why 4D? Because the 3 dimensional sound has huge amount of temporal time based information that I feel and that makes me move in time with the music. I feel involved in the creation of the music….my muscles want to dance in time, to move according to how the music is making me feel. I can often feel the music physically interact with my body. Does all this make for a system that is at all analytical? No, what it makes is a system where I can hear into the heart of the music with nothing obscured to music that pulls me in and keeps me captivated. Most recordings have quite clear venue identities and one of the benefits improvements to the network brought is in the system’s ability to resolve and retrieve those sounds accurately so they are differentiated in amplitude, tone and time into music plus venue reflections but form part of the same integrated 4D picture of music being performed in time, in a venue, natural or engineered, making the whole musical picture my brain conjures up more detailed, whole and believable. In yet other words, the clarity, dynamic, temporal and spatial attributes of the improved network system allows me to understand more of the music’s message by getting mentally completely involved in its ‘creation’.
Essentially the network‘s physical layer is the gateway for us to interact with and improve the stream and its music making potential, at all stages of the network.
 

Stream this its really interesting and says something about music and what it does and means to so many.
 
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I attended our Audio Club meeting last weekend. I won an auction on an album Trio Palabras - Lo Que Dice Mi Cantar. Gary Koh donated the albums and said this was a very good recording.

Today I am listening to some new amps that have about 200 hours on them and are running 24x7. I also have my new Lino Channel D 3.3 phono stage in play. I was very happy with the performance all around. I was admiring how good my vinyl plays now. Its the best it has ever been. New Aidas Durawood cartride analysed by Wally Tools. I'm very happy with it all. Of course I have to see how much better it all plays than my digital, so I find the album on Qobuz and queue up the song I am listening too and do a compare. I could not tell the difference between the two. From bass to treble. From dynamics and quiet. Soundstage. If you blindfolded me, I would not know one from the other. They were basically identical.
For all my adamant beliefs that streaming just can't match my vinyl, that streaming is limited to files on a hard drive, here is an album that breaks my belief system.

So just how wrong are my beliefs that digital and vinyl are different. That one may or may not be better than the other. That streaming no less is inferior to other media. This is a simple test of streamed Qobuz to vinyl. My beliefs failed on this test. Does it really all come down to source material. We did this same test with National Wake - Walk in Africa 1979-81 years back. We did it on a well tuned $300K system in a nice room. Joe Pitman was there. Non of us could tell the vinyl from the stream. That was a Kuzma table/Boulder pre to Brinkman DAC/Aurender.

It makes me wonder if these conversations are based upon totally false opinions as no one knows the source material they are listening too. We know this is true with streamed. What sort of information is on a CD jacket. Does it have the details on what the date of that particular CD is. Was it remastered. Where it was made. And we have almost no understanding of what was done different between the record and the CD, or digital file folder. We might all be going around and around and all be completely ignorant to the truth because we have no way to validate the source.
 
I'd like to both share my experience and make this an appreciation post.
I started building a new system from scratch a bit less than 3 years ago that was meant to be completely digital.
It was quite a challenge to put together in covid times and being in a region with not so many dealers, let alone competent ones.
So forums like this one helped a lot to make certain decisions and to improve my system over time.
I've come a long way from when I started, I learned a lot and my system now reached very good sonic qualities that I didn't know were possible thanks to posters like Blackmorec.

Over the last 3 years, I've also gotten to understand more why it is a complicated hobby and why there are so many opinions and divisions.
An exemple to illustrate this comes to mind.
My DAC is a streaming DAC, the dCS Bartòk.
I chose it because I wanted to keep my system simple and because it appeared as well made and engineered.

If you go on the dCS forum for exemple, there is really not much place for discussion on network improvements because the dCS engineer said that you should only get a tested cat 6 ethernet cable and whatever difference we can hear if we substitute is just us believing it is better while it can't really be. I also didn't invest at first in an 'audiophile' switch, because bits are bits right?
If you try to challenge that or start a discussion, there's the righteous brigade that labels you as an audiofool that gets shafted for spending money on bs and that doesn't have functioning ears to hear that it's all gimmicky.
Well, I understand they recommend cat 6 cables because they're not shielded and because the generic ones such as blue jeans are tested and certified vs some exotic ones that may not be.
I actually did buy the exact cables they were recommending to try them out. (cable matters cat 6).
Despite all this, I wasn't really happy with how my system sounded, which led me to investigate and make some tests, and there were some sonic differences following network modifications, be it different ethernet cables or better lpsu's.
My switch actually has a feature where I can disconnect the ground with a switch so I could test cat 8 shielded cables as well who were actually better than the cat 6.
Long story short, I started implementing the recipes found in this forum and AS and sure enough, I started to get better sound.
I followed Blackmorec fundamentals and the sound I have reached today is fantastic compared to where I started.

So the question is why is there so much debate over digital?
I am not a 50 yrs plus seasoned audiophile who went through many systems and have a golden ear.
I believe however that I can tell if something works or doesn't, if a system is good or not. It either connects or it does not.
And to be honest, I haven't heard many good systems and this led me to try to understand why.

Well, it takes a lot of time and fine tuning to make a system work. It took me almost 3 years to start to have something that I deem acceptable.
Dealers may have the right equipment and knowledge but they have to compromise on the brands they have and they're often moving components. Their job is to move equipment, not to have a perfect system. This is probably why I was never impressed at both shows and dealers to echo blackmorec comments. I understand there are some really passionate, knowledgeable and competent people that can do a really good job at setting up systems, but where I'm from, its hard to come by.

It also takes a lot of time to acquire knowledge and motivation to experiment. It's not easy to try components as well. It's a process.
Most of the times you have to purchase the equipment and live with your mistake if it doesn't work or lose money reselling it.

It takes a lot of money. To both upgrade and experiment. I think a lot of people are ready to dismiss things because they're either not ready to spend a certain amount or they just don't have the money for it. It's not always about having it, but also being ready to spend it on something you deem not worth it or too expensive. I for one, am not happy to have spent so much on 'tweaks', LPSU's or ethernet cables for exemple. And sadly, digital is not plug and play. You have to have your fundamentals right, invest a substantial amount and implement them properly.

It takes an open mind. I think you have to be skeptic but with and open mind and flexibility.
I think there's a lot of ego in Hifi because it is principally a male hobby and an expensive one so a lot of egos are in play.
There's also dogma. A lot of people are set in their ways and their systems actually ressembles their personalities.

There's a saying, if you want to kill a dog, say it has rabies. I feel that's the stance that some people take with digital today.
I agree that digital can sound absolutely terrible in its basic form, but thanks to a few people and forums like this, this hobby has made possible some fantastic leaps forward in the last years and accessible for a lot of people and I'm very thankful for it.
I also feel that digital has more potential today than ever and can go further in music reproduction than analog, I can see that with spatialization or 4D as blackmorec calls it and micro details.

So a big thank you to all of you who spent your time and money and share your knowledge, it is because of you that a lot of good things are happening in digital systems all over the world, mine included!
 
Digital is the talented student who will not apply himself.
 
I also feel that digital has more potential today than ever and can go further in music reproduction than analog, I can see that with spatialization or 4D as blackmorec calls it and micro details.
Did you just say analog is a rabid dog?
 
With all my new fangled analog stuff, I put on a Steely Dan Aja that really let me down in the past. I was hoping it would sound better now. It did as expected. It sucked and I turned it off. Via Qobuz its much better. My master tape copy is better than Qobuz. Again, source material. The equipment can't overcome bad source material.
 
With all my new fangled analog stuff, I put on a Steely Dan Aja that really let me down in the past. I was hoping it would sound better now. It did as expected. It sucked and I turned it off. Via Qobuz its much better. My master tape copy is better than Qobuz. Again, source material. The equipment can't overcome bad source material.
Nor should it! Non of the ‘improvements‘ I talk about are a panacea for bad recordings, for whatever reason. But what the improvements will do is use the redeeming qualities of a recording to build a better presentation and experience in that more of the recorded information is discernible and useful in building the whole sonic picture. So bad recording can still improve. Let me give you an example. I love listening to Mike Oldfield’s Tubular Bells 2003. This isnt the best recording or even a ‘uniform’ recording. On a Bose system, it’s an unremarkable and rather boring piece of music. On my system it’s sonic fireworks, hugely spatial and one of the most gorgeously rhythmical and ‘warm’ recordings I know.

There are of course many cases where recordings are labelled bad due to system shortcomings. For example, a piece may be recorded in a small, reflective environment. The resulting recording sounds a little harsh and uncomfortable because the reflected energy isn't well differentiated from the primary sounds and adds its energy, which are from the loudest, most intense parts back into the mix. A poorly set up system will give you a very uncomfortable experience, whereas a top resolving system will give you intense music played in a small reflective venue. Once you are able to detect and differentiate the reflections’ subtle differences in time, amplitude and frequency, the treble energy makes complete sense and the music sounds vibrant and exciting. Noise and jitter are exactly the problems that blurr the subtle differences mentioned above and make it sound ‘Digital’
 
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(...) It makes me wonder if these conversations are based upon totally false opinions as no one knows the source material they are listening too. We know this is true with streamed. What sort of information is on a CD jacket. Does it have the details on what the date of that particular CD is. Was it remastered. Where it was made. And we have almost no understanding of what was done different between the record and the CD, or digital file folder. We might all be going around and around and all be completely ignorant to the truth because we have no way to validate the source.

Although I share the same concerns on recording origin, I am not so dramatic about the future.

We are now somewhat ignorant of the truth because the high-end audio community does not invest in searching it. Using software tools sound engineers can know if digital recordings are the same or different and we could select recordings of equal content for evaluation.
Qobuz sells the same files they stream. Just look at the SACD community - they created a site and shared valuable information about SACD's during many years.

BTW, I do not expect my vinyl to sound the same as my digital.
 
I have never heard them sound the same in any system.
I had to edit my comments as this sort of struck me as odd. Why not. Why would a well tuned digital and well tuned vinyl system not produce the exact same sound. It they don't, that says to me, one or the other is inaccurate. I feel if a exact copy of the master were to go to Qobuz and the exact same master went to a vinyl plant, my stereo should product the exact same musical recreation. If not, something is off in one or the other of my sources. If it is a matter of the masters are not the same then the conversation of one media performing better than another becomes very convoluted.

I would be willing to send the albums to someone to compare. If they feel it makes a difference. Of course, are the mastering actually different. It just turns out they are incredibly sonically similar when play to each other. I have no idea. Not unless Gary knows more about the album from mastering to pressing in all formats.
 
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Using software tools sound engineers can know if digital recordings are the same or different and we could select recordings of equal content for evaluation.
Really? People talk about a cable making dramatic differences. Yet no one ever shows any analysis via a tool to back it up. Not even the manufacturer. especially when it comes to attributes of space.

With digial I have always wondered how DB Poweramp tells me the rip is accurate. Is there a metadata tag that can be traced to the year, mastering, etc of the CD. If there is, is there any way to see it. Do these SACD groups or other digital groups use that sort of data to find the best version of a release and share what to purchase.

And what about vinyl. Sometimes that is real tough to know what you have. I have heard great recordings of Aja. Mine might have been played on a old needle that carved away the groove. But it may also be a poor reissue.

Anyway, my point is sort of, in a digital world only, if we don't know what Qibuz is streaming, and we "maybe" have an idea the release version of a CD we have stored on a drive or digital file we bought and stored on a drive, how can we measure the performance of one to the other. We need a few vetted albums we know for sure the CD and online version are exactly the same. Then everyone can listen and make a more accurate determination on what they hear.

It would be nice to have the analog version too to compare also. To know what the engineer in the booth did. And if the receiving vinyl plant did anything. I have a friend in a band I told his CD sucked. Upon research, he found the duplicator putting it to disc had decided to do his own changes for whatever reason. There are a lot of places in the chain the data can be manipulated.
 
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Really? People talk about a cable making dramatic differences. Yet no one ever shows any analysis via a tool to back it up. Not even the manufacturer. especially when it comes to attributes of space.

How is this related to streaming?

With digial I have always wondered how DB Poweramp tells me the rip is accurate. Is there a metadata tag that can be traced to the year, mastering, etc of the CD. If there is, is there any way to see it. Do these SACD groups or other digital groups use that sort of data to find the best version of a release and share what to purchase.

Easy. A digital signature is created from the rip and is compared to hundreds of signatures kept in a database. It is statistical validation, but if a single bit is different the difference is detected.

SACD is a much easier case - only a very few factories could/can manufacture SACDs and the number of SACDs is limited. The manufacturing codes say it all.
And what about vinyl. Sometimes that is real tough to know what you have. I have heard great recordings of Aja. Mine might have been played on a old needle that carved away the groove. But it may also be a poor reissue.

Yes, we are aware of that. But again how is this related to streaming?

Anyway, my point is sort of, in a digital world only, if we don't know what Qibuz is streaming, and we "maybe" have an idea the release version of a CD we have stored on a drive or digital file we bought and stored on a drive, how can we measure the performance of one to the other. We need a few vetted albums we know for sure the CD and online version are exactly the same. Then everyone can listen and make a more accurate determination on what they hear.

You or I could do it, but it takes a lot of time and some effort. I read that there is software that captures streaming digitally and can be used for such purposes - although some poeple use it in a non legal way ... But SACD ripping is also illegal and no one seems to care about it.

It would be nice to have the analog version too to compare also. To know what the engineer in the booth did. And if the receiving vinyl plant did anything. I have a friend in a band I told his CD sucked. Upon research, he found the duplicator putting it to disc had decided to do his own changes for whatever reason. There are a lot of places in the chain the data can be manipulated.

What is the point of comparing vinyl to streaming? Vinyl playback has very loose standards, all you can say is which you prefer. My subjective comparison for streaming is the CD/SACD disk player of the dCS Vivaldi stack and copies of Tapeproject copies of master tapes played in a Studer A80.
 
From Micro - Easy. A digital signature is created from the rip and is compared to hundreds of signatures kept in a database. It is statistical validation, but if a single bit is different the difference is detected.

I don't understand Micro. Is every remaster of a CD that sound different from another release of the same album its own "digital signature", that I can understand. But that does not tell me how to know what version I am looking at. What year, what plant, what master if it was changed. You said It it takes a lot of time and effort to figure this out, and no one seems to be doing as such, so we have no idea if what we are hearing when comparing a file stored on a hard drive to streaming has any relevance. The conversation could be changed to, files transmitted by Qobuz are of lower quality than those obtained by ripping a CD and we would still be in the dark as to the truth.

And, the title of the thread is about Streaming being inferior. It does not limit the conversation to streaming vs digital only. You dragged tape in. I see no reason to not compare it to vinyl. I hardly ever listen to the 2000 ripped CD in my library. I stream and play vinyl. So my comparisons are of those 2 sources and very relevant to my perception of streaming as a format.

If I am sitting and really enjoying an album on vinyl, then stream the same album and I can't tell the difference, then I say there is no limitation to streaming. It is something else in the files that I have been receiving that are limiting the streamed media, not the digital equipment of the way the media is transmitted.
 
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I had to edit my comments as this sort of struck me as odd. Why not. Why would a well tuned digital and well tuned vinyl system not produce the exact same sound. It they don't, that says to me, one or the other is inaccurate. I feel if a exact copy of the master were to go to Qobuz and the exact same master went to a vinyl plant, my stereo should product the exact same musical recreation. If not, something is off in one or the other of my sources. If it is a matter of the masters are not the same then the conversation of one media performing better than another becomes very convoluted.

I would be willing to send the albums to someone to compare. If they feel it makes a difference. Of course, are the mastering actually different. It just turns out they are incredibly sonically similar when play to each other. I have no idea. Not unless Gary knows more about the album from mastering to pressing in all formats.
Hi Kingrex,
Nice subject again! Here’s some ‘stream of conscious‘ conversation on the topic. If you take the exact same recording of a performance and you put one onto a record and the other into a digital file representing binary ones and zeros In whatever format, here’s roughly what happens. The recorded signal is played through a cutting lathe which cuts a groove representing the musical signal. So remember it’s no longer the original signal, it’s now a completely different signal that follows the same pattern as the original signal, as close as the transfer between copper wire voltage and cutting head lathe motion allows. And as much as vinyl is a good medium for recorded music In that its resonances don’t colour the music too much. From there that original female cutting is converted to a male stamper which is used to stamp a spiral grove onto some warm vinyl. This is the umpteenth version of the original signal, having undergone many physical conversions

Remember that everything in the chain has its own unique sound identity. How do we know? Because if you change something major anywhere in the entire process, the change shows up in the music as a shift in the way it sounds or in the way it presents. Even some seemingly subtle areas like DC cabling and its screening have a major impact on the final sound. Heck you can change the way it sounds by clamping the record to the tt platter, so the entire ‘actual music’ production chain including replay of the vinyl leaves its identity on the music. Massively
The production chain for digital files couldn’t be more different. The analog music signal is never manipulated in its real form Rather in its digital representation. All manipulation happens in silica and resistors and capacitors and memory chips and CPUs . The music is encoded into particular formats then decoded, reformatted, retransmitted, decoded. There’s a ton of stuff going on with both the electronics voltage side and on the SW logic side that execute all types of functions on and around the digital signal. All these processes make noise and leave their identity, like an animal leaves a scent. Change the animal and the scent changes. Change a component and something about the sound/presentation changes.

So now we come to comparing the same recording, used to make both an LP record and a digital file and we compare them and they sound the same. For that to be logically true then both the vinyl music-making process and the digitalisation music-making process would either need to be utterly transparent in order to reduce any differences to zero or they would both need to have the exact same sonic signatures when the influences of all their different processes are combined Into the final musical sound. Theoretically and logically, as you approach perfection in either vinyl or digital, the differences should become ever smaller as your signal becomes cleaner and purer and more accurately represents the pure signal without any noise or timing errors. Essentially networking‘s Physical Layer perfection Vs vinyl’s ‘as quietly, as completely and as accurately as possible’ signal recovery
Get to the pinnacle of either and you’re in sonic paradise, both and you’re Golden
 
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