More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[Blackmorec]

Do you have your modem and router on a stand? In short, are you utilizing vibration dampening? Do you mass load them? Do you find they want to be on a firm stand or floating. What about the ethernet cable. Do you do anything outside keeping it well away from any other cables.

My modem router and switch are in the basement. About at 15 foot ethernet from the switch to the server. They are feed very good power. Dedicated LPS to each and all those feed from a wall mount Torus transformer. But they have next to no attention to how they are mounted. The router is on a concrete wall. The modem sits on top of the data box. The switch is stuffed in the data box. I do use some compressed fiber insulation between the devices and what they sit on. So I am doing a little floating isolation. That's about it.

Hi Kingrex.

My modem and router both sit on Atacama bases, essentially 2“ thick bamboo platforms on short legs, mounted on spikes into the floor. My power supplies and switches are on a Finite Elemente Pagoda Master Reference Stand which is on Cerabase footers. The anti-vibration measures get more thorough as the network progresses. My network bridge has its own single point anti-vibration wall mount, essentially a polymethyl methacrylate (Perspex) platform with a single spike at the centre of gravity, held in position by 4 slack o-rings.
No mass loading….not really possible due to the shape

Ethernet cables are routed off the wall through suspension devices

 

[_Alchemist_]

 

[PYP]

For years, I used an UpTone Audio etherREGEN just before my DAC and found that it helped clean up the noise. Eventually, I had two eRs, one with a nice external clock and UpTone LPS. But, as this video states, the Grimm Audio MU1 does an impressive job of reducing any noise that enters it via copper ethernet.

Once the MU1 was in my setup, I could remove the eRs since they only seemed to move the perspective more toward the stage, so to speak. That wasn't my goal or listening preference, so they were placed in nice audiophile homes. Since removing the eRs I haven't tried other upstream optimizations.

If you want to explore streaming, the MU1 is worth a demo (assuming it fits your budget). Right now, it only uses Roon software (that will change with future software updates). It is a streamer/server/DDC/Volume control (if wanted): https://www.grimmaudio.com/hifi-products/music-players/mu1/

 

[Amir]

Because all things are important for sound quality and computer playback has many devices please let Look at streaming devices cost :

- buy best music server like taiko as server and wadax as endpoint or vise versa
- buy best switches (waiting for over $10k high end switches from Taiko or other manufactures)
- buy best modems
- buy best streaming services
- buy best ethernet cables
- buy best power cords for all servers/switches/modems
- buy best AC conditioner for computer/playback
- buy best ground like entreq for all devices
- buy best software
- buy os optimization codes to ask cpu to focus on streaming
- buy best vibration control under all devices
- buy best rack to put place all of them

what my experience say:
Finally after spending $300k on computer playback I bet you a $30k Transport (CEC TL0 3.0) will outperform those $300k Computer playback if you have transparent system.


Is File/Streaming better than CD Transport? In my idea NO.

Ask this question in 2060 (40 years later) and the answer is the same as we prefer Vinyl to CD after 40 years.

I am not against Computer playback and I think we should have all media (file/stream, CD,SACD, Vinyl,Tape)

 

[matthias]

Finally after spending $300k on computer playback I bet you a $30k Transport (CEC TL0 3.0) will outperform those $300k Computer playback if you have transparent system.

I don't know how you calculate but Taiko router, switch and Extreme is around 40k. The Taiko software is included.
And for your CEC you need a separate DAC, for the Taiko solution you can get the upcoming PCIe DAC if you want.
So you might end up spending the same amount on both streaming and CD

Matt

 

[Amir]

I don't know how you calculate but Taiko router, switch and Extreme is around 40k. The Taiko software is included.
And for your CEC you need a separate DAC, for the Taiko solution you can get the upcoming PCIe DAC if you want.
So you might end up spending the same amount on both streaming and CD

Matt

Wadax Server ($150k) is better than Taiko and finally Wadax Server is not better than CEC TL0 3.0.

you know Roy Gregory and his website http://gy8.eu/
Roy Gregory has listened to most both high end Computer Playback and Transport Systems.
Roy will tell you the trust about Computer Playback if you send him an email.
I never trusted any magazine/reviewer like Stereophile/TAS/6moon/... but I think Roy Gregory is different and he can help us.

Again I am not against Computer Playback and I thanks both Wadax and Taiko for Great products.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I love streaming via you tube .
Plus i can follow the stockmarket and check the news at the same time.
Which analogue rig can do that.

You can have both excellent recordings on CD and via streaming .
Its not the medium what determines it .
But of course digital sound is no tape sound both have their strengths

 

[matthias]

Wadax Server ($150k) is better than Taiko and finally Wadax Server is not better than CEC TL0 3.0.

you know Roy Gregory and his website http://gy8.eu/
Roy Gregory has listened to most both high end Computer Playback and Transport Systems.
Roy will tell you the trust about Computer Playback if you send him an email.
I never trusted any magazine/reviewer like Stereophile/TAS/6moon/... but I think Roy Gregory is different and he can help us.

Again I am not against Computer Playback and I thanks both Wadax and Taiko for Great products.

You mentioned Taiko Audio in your post #404, so I made the calculation.
I know RG's website very well, he didn't review so far Taiko Audio.
BTW, I would never accept RG telling me the truth about Computer Playback.
Thank you

Matt

 

[Blackmorec]

Because all things are important for sound quality and computer playback has many devices please let Look at streaming devices cost :

- buy best music server like taiko as server and wadax as endpoint or vise versa
- buy best switches (waiting for over $10k high end switches from Taiko or other manufactures)
- buy best modems
- buy best streaming services
- buy best ethernet cables
- buy best power cords for all servers/switches/modems
- buy best AC conditioner for computer/playback
- buy best ground like entreq for all devices
- buy best software
- buy os optimization codes to ask cpu to focus on streaming
- buy best vibration control under all devices
- buy best rack to put place all of them

what my experience say:
Finally after spending $300k on computer playback I bet you a $30k Transport (CEC TL0 3.0) will outperform those $300k Computer playback if you have transparent system.


Is File/Streaming better than CD Transport? In my idea NO.

Ask this question in 2060 (40 years later) and the answer is the same as we prefer Vinyl to CD after 40 years.

I am not against Computer playback and I think we should have all media (file/stream, CD,SACD, Vinyl,Tape)

Hi Amir,
Have you actually ’experienced‘ the above ie. actually done it (in order to have experienced it) or are we talking educated guesswork based on previous related experience? I’m guessing the latter given that the list of streaming ‘best buys’ misses the single most important components of all, namely DC power supplies and DC cables, neither of which represent trivial costs. My other reason I‘m guessing you haven’t tried a ’full blown’ streaming optimisation is that I don’t think you’d have written what you did, if you had.

My ‘experienced guesswork’ would reach an opposite conclusion and here’s why. The transport, good as it is, still has several very noisy motors, servo controllers etc to do with spinning a disc at a variable speed, tracking the spiral coil of lands and pits, generating the lazer beam, focusing the laser beam, error correction, etc. All of those processes generate large amounts of noise and vibration, all of which need to be filtered, isolated, grounded or converted. In something as complex and ‘highly mechanical’ as a CD transport, that’s not trivial. It’s inherently a very noisy environment, so while improvement is possible, it’s also very expensive (law of diminishing returns) and complex from an engineering standpoint. With streaming the user has direct access to the data stream, with the ability to retime, filter, re-synthesise the voltage stream, galvanically isolate, exclude EMI and RFI, vibrationally isolate and purify, control network load and flow etc.
With streaming, it’s not just a matter of buying the most expensive components; more its about buying the right components and arranging them to maximise synergy to get the very best network physical layer into your server or DAC. That optimization starts with DC supplies.

I have spent the past 4 years optimizing a streaming system and despite spending a fair amount I have not yet found where the law of diminishing returns starts. My experience with CDPs and transports is that the law starts fairly early, because once the real fundamentals are addressed, the balance of the ‘problems’ as listed above aren’t accessible to the user and remain to limit improvement of the SQ.

Having said all that, I think that the reality is that transports and streaming can both sound exceptionally good, to the point they are extremely satisfying as music mediums. What I don’t believe is that a $30K transport, with all its inherent limitations will sound better than a streaming system with most of its limitations removed. That is not what I have actually experienced, but then I haven’t experienced bleeding edge transports, beyond dealer demos and shows. At those events the top transports sounded very good, but not spectacularly so. In the end it was still CD and still sounded like I expect a really good CD to sound. Streaming, with its huge clean-up potential has the ability to transcend that ‘medium related‘ sound.

 

[PYP]

Because all things are important for sound quality and computer playback has many devices please let Look at streaming devices cost :

- buy best music server like taiko as server and wadax as endpoint or vise versa
- buy best switches (waiting for over $10k high end switches from Taiko or other manufactures)
- buy best modems
- buy best streaming services
- buy best ethernet cables
- buy best power cords for all servers/switches/modems
- buy best AC conditioner for computer/playback
- buy best ground like entreq for all devices
- buy best software
- buy os optimization codes to ask cpu to focus on streaming
- buy best vibration control under all devices
- buy best rack to put place all of them

what my experience say:
Finally after spending $300k on computer playback I bet you a $30k Transport (CEC TL0 3.0) will outperform those $300k Computer playback if you have transparent system.


Is File/Streaming better than CD Transport? In my idea NO.

Ask this question in 2060 (40 years later) and the answer is the same as we prefer Vinyl to CD after 40 years.

I am not against Computer playback and I think we should have all media (file/stream, CD,SACD, Vinyl,Tape)

I don't have access to the CEC to compare to the Grimm MU1, but that would be an interesting comparison. The MU1 doesn't require all the items you listed for best sound quality. So, basically a $12k vs. $30k comparison. And then you could try the CEC feeding the MU1 feeding your DAC (since it is a DDC too). Please report back!

 

[Amir]

Hi Amir,
Have you actually ’experienced‘ the above ie. actually done it (in order to have experienced it) or are we talking educated guesswork based on previous related experience? I’m guessing the latter given that the list of streaming ‘best buys’ misses the single most important components of all, namely DC power supplies and DC cables, neither of which represent trivial costs. My other reason I‘m guessing you haven’t tried a ’full blown’ streaming optimisation is that I don’t think you’d have written what you did, if you had.

My ‘experienced guesswork’ would reach an opposite conclusion and here’s why. The transport, good as it is, still has several very noisy motors, servo controllers etc to do with spinning a disc at a variable speed, tracking the spiral coil of lands and pits, generating the lazer beam, focusing the laser beam, error correction, etc. All of those processes generate large amounts of noise and vibration, all of which need to be filtered, isolated, grounded or converted. In something as complex and ‘highly mechanical’ as a CD transport, that’s not trivial. It’s inherently a very noisy environment, so while improvement is possible, it’s also very expensive (law of diminishing returns) and complex from an engineering standpoint. With streaming the user has direct access to the data stream, with the ability to retime, filter, re-synthesise the voltage stream, galvanically isolate, exclude EMI and RFI, vibrationally isolate and purify, control network load and flow etc.
With streaming, it’s not just a matter of buying the most expensive components; more its about buying the right components and arranging them to maximise synergy to get the very best network physical layer into your server or DAC. That optimization starts with DC supplies.

I have spent the past 4 years optimizing a streaming system and despite spending a fair amount I have not yet found where the law of diminishing returns starts. My experience with CDPs and transports is that the law starts fairly early, because once the real fundamentals are addressed, the balance of the ‘problems’ as listed above aren’t accessible to the user and remain to limit improvement of the SQ.

Having said all that, I think that the reality is that transports and streaming can both sound exceptionally good, to the point they are extremely satisfying as music mediums. What I don’t believe is that a $30K transport, with all its inherent limitations will sound better than a streaming system with most of its limitations removed. That is not what I have actually experienced, but then I haven’t experienced bleeding edge transports, beyond dealer demos and shows. At those events the top transports sounded very good, but not spectacularly so. In the end it was still CD and still sounded like I expect a really good CD to sound. Streaming, with its huge clean-up potential has the ability to transcend that ‘medium related‘ sound.

Hi Blackmorec

I have spend more than two years for computer playback over 1000 hours of ...
I also had Mojo Audio DC power supply. Nothing is guess and what I write here come from my listening experience. All expert Audiophiles like Roy Gregory do not like File/Streaming playback.

my approach is different to you, I am Electronics engineer and my project was calculating waveguide cut-off frequency by numeric method . I know what 4 maxwell's equation says and It means I am not against physics but what you say about vibration/noise of CD transport is not related to what we hear from Audio Systems. I can publish much more negative comments about the Noise inside a Computer that no digital designer can fully filter/isolate it without degrading dynamics.

electronics/physics theory are good if you like to know but good sound is not result of electronics theories.
Check wadax digital output and all outputs are bitperfect but you hear different sound .
Electronics says to you "bits are bits" but the truth is "bits are not bits".

we should forget theories and Listen to audio components in a transparent system.
many audio systems are not transparent enough and those judgments are not valid.

I am sure if you listen to CEC TL0 3.0 in a transparent system then you will convince Computer Audio is not better media than CD.

CEC CD transport has better dynamic more relax and more open dimensional sound.

Thanks for reading

 

[bryans]

expert Audiophiles

I must admit I got a laugh when I read "expert Audiophiles". Honestly I have no idea what an expert audiophile is especially given we are talking what one person likes vs. what someone else likes.

 

[_Alchemist_]

Because all things are important for sound quality and computer playback has many devices please let Look at streaming devices cost :

- buy best music server like taiko as server and wadax as endpoint or vise versa
- buy best switches (waiting for over $10k high end switches from Taiko or other manufactures)
- buy best modems
- buy best streaming services
- buy best ethernet cables
- buy best power cords for all servers/switches/modems
- buy best AC conditioner for computer/playback
- buy best ground like entreq for all devices
- buy best software
- buy os optimization codes to ask cpu to focus on streaming
- buy best vibration control under all devices
- buy best rack to put place all of them

what my experience say:
Finally after spending $300k on computer playback I bet you a $30k Transport (CEC TL0 3.0) will outperform those $300k Computer playback if you have transparent system.


Is File/Streaming better than CD Transport? In my idea NO.

Ask this question in 2060 (40 years later) and the answer is the same as we prefer Vinyl to CD after 40 years.

I am not against Computer playback and I think we should have all media (file/stream, CD,SACD, Vinyl,Tape)

You are overly exaggerating to prove your point.
You do not need to spend 300k$ to have a good digital system.

Here's what I spent for my digital + optimisations:
-1 decent LPSU for my internet box + qsa fuse 500 + a decent DC cable 100 + decent power cable 800 + 6 iso acoustics gaia graphite 250 - approx 1850 euros
-1 Roon nucleus plus + ssd 2500 + farad super 3 lpsu + level 2 dc cable 800 + furutech dps 4.1 power cable 1400 + 7 iso acoustics gaia graphite 300 - approx 5000 euros
-1 ediscreation switch + 1 qsa fuse 1500 + ediscreation fiberbox 1600 + 2 analysis plus AC cables 1200 + 8 iso acoustics gaia graphite 350 - approx 4650 euros
-2 Pink faun ethernet cables + 1 sablon + supra = approx 2000 euros
-1 silent angel switch + ifi power = approx 500 euros
+ A liftetime Roon subscription.
I don't count the rack but it's a solidsteel rack that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
For weights I use door stoppers for like 10 euros each.

Total = approx 14000 euros - you can do the same or better for less if you build your own Roon nuc.

I am actually comparing right now this setup vs one of the top 3 / top 2 server in the mid / high 20k euros.
When I run roon core on both, there's no difference at all or a slight advantage to my setup.
When I use the digital out of the server, I prefer my setup.

That being said, I haven't compared my setup to a CD player or Vinyl, but I wouldn't be scared to.
My digital rig is working very well at the moment and I think with a couple more tweaks like better dc cables and maybe a couple more decent ethernet cables, a better lpsu for my internet box and I'd really have something top class.

The only problem with digital is that the sauce gets more expensive than the meat.
You have to spend quite a bit on good cables, very good dc supplies, tweaks etc.
Spend almost 2k on power for the internet box DC power supply? Spend close to 1000 for a good ethernet cable?
Doesn't really make any sense financially but that's how it is.
Vibration control is not very expensive. I'm quite happy with the isoacoustics, they're good if you deploy a lot of them and put them everywhere.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I must admit I got a laugh when I read "expert Audiophiles". Honestly I have no idea what an expert audiophile is especially given we are talking what one person likes vs. what someone else likes.

An expert audiophile is one who owns Horns.

 

[bryans]

An expert audiophile is one who owns Horns.

WOW given I owned Klisch back in the 90s I've been an expert and didn't even know it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

WOW given I owned Klisch back in the 90s I've been an expert and didn't even know it.

That counts also .
Just dont tell in public you switched , this crowd can be kind of protective

 

[MarkusBarkus]

An expert audiophile is one who owns Horns.

Like these?

 

[Blackmorec]

CEC CD transport has better dynamic more relax and more open dimensional sound.

Hi Amir.
For it to have meaning, better has to have another dimension. Better than ’something’
Then to make it interesting we could discuss why its better. Im not judging the CEC in the least and am perfectly happy to discuss the merits of streaming vs a CD transport like the CEC, which of course I do know by reputation if not in detail.

I would have concern if you were to say ‘better than streaming’ because I personally dont know how far streaming quality goes because I’ve only taken it to a certain point, within my facilities and budget And Ive so far found no ‘law of diminishing returns‘. Taiko is about to take it several steps further and I’ll bet good money the market will find their ‘new‘ system excellent value for money, so still no sight of diminishing returns I believe.

I was looking at the Wadax website and think I read about a €19,000 DC cable. Is that correct or did I misread? . Anyway, it’s made of an exotic mix like a silver gold alloy, has a woven silk body and very very exotic looking connectors. Pure class. But worth mentioning is that the DC supply of my streaming network is wired start to finish in a silver gold based cable by Mundorf, mostly hand built by an extremely skilled and generous fellow audiophile, DIY guru, IT expert and beautiful cable builder Nenon. His cables have quite amazing properties, transforming the sound into something truly pure, 4 dimensional and spatial. The cable imparts hugely increased clarity and transparency. It can be gorgeously delicate or massively robust the transparency and purity and dimensionality remain.

The point is, this is just one area of many areas that can be enhanced on a network. It’s quite boggling how many opportunities there are. Where to start?
Trying to assign a maximum quality to streaming is like trying to assign a length to the proverbial piece of string. ie. any length you want, within upper boundaries we’ve yet to discover

 

[bryans]

LOL I also used to own a CEC TL1 transport back in the day. Used it with a Classe DAC. Oh the memories.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I was looking at the Wadax website and think I read about a €19,000 DC cable. Is that correct or did I misread? .

I think its somewhere in that range yes , but Wadax has the advantage that it does sound very good .
If all goes well regarding work planning i ll be in Munchen this year as well , hope to hear some more WADAX