Their top of the line products are very very long in the tooth.. The Ref 10 gear and the 750 are around a decade old. There are reasons that companies make flagships and ARC always had them.
This is purely subjective, but I actually like it when a high-end audio company does not update their products every year or two. Aesthetix and VTL both have very long product cycles. Both companies make quiet, in-production improvements along the way, without declaring a new model or a new version of an existing model, unless a dramatic innovation is discovered. I like this philosophy, and I think this procedure is better for us consumers.
Why isn't the REF750SE still a flagship amplifier?
This is purely subjective, but I actually like it when a high-end audio company does not update their products every year or two. Aesthetix and VTL both have very long product cycles. Both companies make quiet, in-production improvements along the way, without declaring a new model or a new version of an existing model, unless a dramatic innovation is discovered. I actually like this philosophy.
Why isn't the REF750SE still a flagship amplifier?
First its not subjective its a fact. They have been around for almost a decade. I have seen the replacement of the amplifier and had conversations with Trent and others , before the demise, about the line. You may remember we showed last Axpona with ARC. Second they have been working on new ones for quite a long time and have not released them. I know this because I was told many times. They have a replacement for the 750Se and it has not as of today been released , hopefully it will be shortly. I heard through the grapevine it will finally be shown at an upcoming show. They have been talking about the 320 for about two years.
Companies that have a long history, like Audio Research, a perennial state of the art competitor, always are working on and replacing thier gear in a timely manner to remain at or near the top of the heap. No offense to those you mentioned but they are not in the same place as ARC has been. They are not held in the same regard that is not a knock at thier quality but just the truth. ARC has been a pillar of the HE Industry since Bill Johnson began.
This is a very competitive Industry and it is evident by the continuing attempts at companies to improve thier products and remain at the top of the heap. IMO they have not done that and it is a primary reason for their issues. If they had released the 320's on time I believe that Trent would still own the company and they would have never had the issues they suffered.
I respect your opinion of what YOU like however that opinion has nothing to do with the business and history of companies. ARC does not fit your narative. Look at their history.
This is purely subjective, but I actually like it when a high-end audio company does not update their products every year or two. Aesthetix and VTL both have very long product cycles. Both companies make quiet, in-production improvements along the way, without declaring a new model or a new version of an existing model, unless a dramatic innovation is discovered. I like this philosophy, and I think this procedure is better for us consumers.
i do agree that change for the sake of change (serving dealer churn $$$) is not typically end user friendly. it lowers resale and results in a degree of change fatigue from customers. my darts look like the first versions from 2003 (108), 2005 (18NS), and 2010 (458/468)....yet still tic many boxes below).
flagship products need to be aspirational. in other words, there needs to some sort of buzz, demand, presence, respect and awareness. part of being a flagship is the damn flag being real and active. might be even some sort of mystery about it. but something alive and kicking.
aspirational products command attention. talk about them castes a halo.
been a decade since the biggest ARC products tics any of those boxes. the only thing i hear is how hot they get and how many tubes need to be freshened now and then. but it's not on anyone's radar to acquire. no mystery either. which has little to do with actual performance. i'm sure the REF750 still plays at a high level. but it's not providing excitement and attraction to the brand.
This is purely subjective, but I actually like it when a high-end audio company does not update their products every year or two. Aesthetix and VTL both have very long product cycles. Both companies make quiet, in-production improvements along the way, without declaring a new model or a new version of an existing model, unless a dramatic innovation is discovered. I like this philosophy, and I think this procedure is better for us consumers.
Why isn't the REF750SE still a flagship amplifier?
Personally I don’t care for the ‘in production’ improvements, not least because it makes the used market a mess. If someone offers a used model X, am I buying an original used model X, or model X with the in-production changes 1,2,3, or just change #1.
As a mfg, it also makes support a PITA for the same reason. I understand parts supply/availability might dictate some changes, but a product life cycle of 5 yrs seems like a reasonable amount of time. Frequent upgrades without genuine sonic improvements on the other hand isn’t much fun for the consumer.
Probably a different equation for the small bespoke mfg, who assembles units when ordered, and who might offer customizations. The small mfg doesn’t have the fiscal demands of many employees. The end user has more risk in this scenario if something happens to the mfg, but instead they get the bespoke item made for them.
i do agree that change for the sake of change (serving dealer churn $$$) is not typically end user friendly. it lowers resale and results in a degree of change fatigue from customers. my darts look like the first versions from 2003 (108), 2005 (18NS), and 2010 (458/468)....yet still tic many boxes below).
flagship products need to be aspirational. in other words, there needs to some sort of buzz, demand, presence, respect and awareness. part of being a flagship is the damn flag being real and active. might be even some sort of mystery about it. but something alive and kicking.
aspirational products command attention. talk about them castes a halo.
been a decade since the biggest ARC products tics any of those boxes. the only thing i hear is how hot they get and how many tubes need to be freshened now and then. but it's not on anyone's radar to acquire. no mystery either. which has little to do with actual performance. i'm sure the REF750 still plays at a high level. but it's not providing excitement and attraction to the brand.
Contrary to what reviewers and dealers might suggest, analog audio equipment that is older than the latest, greatest...does not mean poorer sound quality or less "accurate". The newest, latest audio equipment does not necessarily mean "better" sound quality (or more "accurate"). Everything in audio (and life) is a compromise...euphonic colorations...or purist perfection. Or somewhere in-between.
An example is Bill Johnson's first (arguably) "Reference" amplifier (that was offered for sale in 1994), the monoaural VT-150SE amplifiers with vacuum tubes (two 6550s) in the regulation stage. Those amplifiers (with Siemen or Telefunken input tubes and GE 6550 output and regulation tubes) produce a mid-range that must be heard to comprehend.
On the other hand, the REF 160S and the REF 160M MKII are extraordinary in their own ways. It will be interesting to find out what the REF320M amplifiers will offer (https://audioresearch.com/ref320m/). The REF320M had, at one point in it's development, vacuum tubes in the regulation stage (re: VT-150SE).
It is nice to see ARC is updating their web site..."And life flows on within you and without you".
who is excited about this? who is talking about this? do we see anyone asking questions about it? or listing it as a targeted product?
i've seen and heard zippo about it. nada. ziltch.
what you as an industry insider "thinks" means absolutely nothing (nothing personal, and don't intend any slight....just we are talking about 'action'.....maybe there is some of it going on i'm not aware of). maybe it will be featured at Axpona and it will get some buzz? or not. they will need to break thru the stale feeling about the brand.
who is excited about this? who is talking about this? do we see anyone asking questions about it? or listing it as a targeted product?
i've seen and heard zippo about it. nada. ziltch.
what you as an industry insider "thinks" means absolutely nothing. maybe it will be featured at Axpona and it will get some buzz? or not. they will need to break thru the stale feeling about the brand.
ARC is more than a brand. It's a cult with a cult following. Think "McIntosh". Newbies and experienced users alike aspire to it for more than the sound it provides. As an original SP-3/D76 owner, I left the brand after a pair of 610's blew up and never looked back. Their poor reliability was not an asset for future sales among the cognescenti. Seems like everyone has or has heard a ARC "story" about their field reliability and service and it's not a good one. (A different situation for McIntosh however but still similar as a cult brand).
Maybe those who consider audio reproduction systems a sport, with the need for constant youtube videos and forum banter.
This is the "best" according to the blue Jay outside my window in the tree.etc. Are the sports fans actually potential buyers?
I'm excited about the new Ferrari I read about in Road and Track. So are the 48,327 other people who read about it, but realistically, only 23 people will be actually buying this Ferrari this year and they probably heard about it in the Wall Street Journal or The Robb Report or a friend.
Same is true for "high-end" and expensive audio equipment. I would guess most buzzers can't justify buying a piece of equipment that is twice their annual pretax salary. But you'll get opinion, advice and whatever else and it is based on..what? Buzz?
the subject of the thread is ARC's price increase and market presence. what is working, what is not working, and where ARC is headed. and why.
that a thread like this is going on tells us much. i'm not an ARC guy.....one way or another (although i did own a used ARC D400 MK2 solid state amp from 1994-1996 for what it's worth).....but i like long term iconic hifi companies to be healthy. just cuz.
and ARC owners will benefit from that success going forward.
Hey Mike L. Just to be clear: The line "who is excited about this?" was not from me. It was a quote from you.
That was a cut and paste quote from You at 9:14 AM to which I responded, "Who actually cares who is excited?"
Also, you said: "i'm not an ARC guy"... although i did own a used ARC D400 MK2 solid state amp from 1994-1996"
My opinion based on your experience is I'd probably not be an "ARC guy" either if my experience was based upon the purchase of a Solid State amp made thirty years ago, from a historical tube equipment manufacturer...An amplifier developed by ARC during a period when quality tubes were near impossible to source.
ARC is more than a brand. It's a cult with a cult following. Think "McIntosh". Newbies an experienced users alike aspire to it for more than the sound it provides. As an original SP-3/D76 ownerI left the brand after a pair of 610's blew up and never looked back. Their poor reliability was not an asset for future sales among the cognescenti. Seems like everyone has or has heard a ARC "story" about their field reliability and service and it's not a good one. (A different situation for McIntosh however but still similar as a cult brand).
Hi Marty,
Do you have any evidence behind your "cult" claim? If so, why did the Italians dump it? Why did it go belly up? Other than nostalgia from the old guys, is anyone really buying their boxes these days?
who is excited about this? who is talking about this? do we see anyone asking questions about it? or listing it as a targeted product?
i've seen and heard zippo about it. nada. ziltch.
what you as an industry insider "thinks" means absolutely nothing (nothing personal, and don't intend any slight....just we are talking about 'action'.....maybe there is some of it going on i'm not aware of). maybe it will be featured at Axpona and it will get some buzz? or not. they will need to break thru the stale feeling about the brand.
That’s a bit of a harsh reply given no formal announcements have been made. I also object to ARC being characterized as stale. Many of my friends who are not in the industry are very interested in the 320 for the power. Similar buzz with the new 50th Watt Puppy. But it’s early days. More excitement will build with photo releases, specs, and mention in the audio press.
Hi Marty,
Do you have any evidence behind your "cult" claim? If so, why did the Italians dump it? Why did it go belly up? Other than nostalgia from the old guys, is anyone really buying their boxes these days?
the subject of the thread is ARC's price increase and market presence. what is working, what is not working, and where ARC is headed. and why.
that a thread like this is going on tells us much. i'm not an ARC guy.....one way or another (although i did own a used ARC D400 MK2 solid state amp from 1994-1996 for what it's worth).....but i like long term iconic hifi companies to be healthy. just cuz.
and ARC owners will benefit from that success going forward.
i've said nothing negative about ARC performance......only commented on the general relevance. from the outside looking in. is ARC in the audiophile consciousness in the way it might want to be?
my expectation is that the right current ARC electronics could be central to an outstanding system. like yours. but who realizes that?
Hi Marty,
Do you have any evidence behind your "cult" claim? If so, why did the Italians dump it? Why did it go belly up? Other than nostalgia from the old guys, is anyone really buying their boxes these days?
