Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

trapper said:

I have world class digital and analogue components in my 2 channel room. If I listen to a good quality album and then listen to the same one on my Esoteric Dac is cannot compare to analogue. It just loses the magic I’ll call it. Digital is getting better but just not there yet. It is a lot less trouble than playin a record but just cannot play digital an entire evening without getting a headache

Click to expand...

Can I make a suggestion to all here who get headaches from listening to their digital audio?

Don’t listen to it. Just listen to your vinyl if it feels better.

Or, look into why your particular digital setup sounds bad instead of complaining about it on the Internet.

Many people, with discerning ears and high standards, are very happy with the sound they get from the digital set ups. You might look into what they’ve done to get to that point.

Ive heard bad vinyl that’s made me want to run out of the room. That doesn’t make me assume that all vinyl playback is bad.

Ultimately, I think it all comes down to the recordings, whatever playback method you use. Don’t listen to crappy recordings!

Al M. said:

Yes, it *does*, Ron. Merriam Webster says so, it's official.

So yes, you are officially wrong on this one.

Click to expand...

I disagree.

Actually, in my opinion American Heritage trumps Merriam Webster. I do not consider Merriam Webster to be definitive. I consider American Heritage to be authoritative and definitive. I cannot readily find an American Heritage declaration on the usage matter in question.

If you look at the differences between these dictionaries Merriam Webster is considered "descriptive" (how language is used) and "permissive." American Heritage is considered "prescriptive" (how language should be used) and conservative. American Heritage does not countenance the dumbing down of language due to evolving lazy usage.

I go by American Heritage, the more prescriptive and conservative dictionary.

I did find this:

The two may be used interchangeably, but “I couldn’t care less” is the proper phrase to use if you want to avoid this grammar gaffe.

wil said:

Can I make a suggestion to all here who get headaches from listening to their digital audio?

Don’t listen to it. Just listen to your vinyl if that makes you feel better.

Or, you could look into why your particular digital setup sounds bad instead of complaining about it on the Internet.

Many people, with discerning ears and high standards, are very happy with the sound they get from the digital set ups. You might look into what they’ve done to get to that point.

Ive heard bad vinyl that’s made me want to run out of the room. That doesn’t make me assume that all vinyl playback is bad.

Ultimately, I think it all comes down to the recordings, whatever playback method you use. Don’t listen to crappy recordings!

Click to expand...

Indeed, different people have different sensitivities towards different DACs with respect to them causing headaches or migraines. Here is one example (post #863);


Here is another one (post #248):


Those who suffer from digital induced headaches might want to look for other DACs that suit them.

Interestingly, the poster in the second example finds dCS to be one of the headache inducing DACs, while the first poster found an early dCS to be the first DAC that he could listen to which was relaxing and not migraine inducing (in the meantime, as he reports elsewhere, he has found other DACs to have that quality as well, but the still likes his dCS Vivaldi the most).

So it varies from individual to individual.

Ron Resnick said:

I disagree.

Actually, in my opinion American Heritage trumps Merriam Webster. I do not consider Merriam Webster to be definitive. I consider American Heritage to be authoritative and definitive. I cannot readily find an American Heritage declaration on the usage matter in question.

If you look at the differences between these dictionaries Merriam Webster is considered "descriptive" (how language is used) and "permissive." American Heritage is considered "prescriptive" (how language should be used) and conservative. American Heritage does not countenance the dumbing down of language due to evolving lazy usage.

I go by American Heritage, the more prescriptive and conservative dictionary.

Click to expand...

Well, whatever, Ron.

I could care less.

Or should that be: I couldn't care less?

In any case, I think you are a bit too fast in pulling the grammar trigger, as also evident in the first example on this thread about the use of "so".

Google is your friend, too.

Al M. said:

Well, whatever, Ron.

I could care less.

Or should that be: I couldn't care less?

Click to expand...

Al M. said:

In any case, I think you are a bit too fast in pulling the grammar trigger, as also evident in the first example on this thread about the use of "so".

Click to expand...

I probably am too fast in pulling the grammar trigger.

There is no disputing my other major grammar pet peeve. Some members incorrectly and gratuitously add apostrophes where they should not. See https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-proper-use-of-the-apostrophe.22444/. This error typically happens on the model names of components.

Al M. said:

Google is your friend, too.

Click to expand...

I disagree.

Ron Resnick said:

I probably am too fast in pulling the grammar trigger.

There is no disputing my other major grammar pet peeve. Some members incorrectly and gratuitously add apostrophes where they should not. See https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-proper-use-of-the-apostrophe.22444/. This error typically happens on the model names of components.

Click to expand...

I do agree, Ron, that mistakes in grammar can be annoying, even though I am not immune to making them myself.

Your complaint about apostrophes is a valid one.

One of the mistakes that completely drive me up the wall is when some Americans write:

dependant

when really what they mean is:

dependent

Folks, where is the education?

I’m a 65 year old physician. I clearly have a certain emotional response to music from my youth, played on vinyl (with tubes in there somewhere). I think it’s related to the music, ceremonial act of vinyl usage, and to some degree of difference of the electronic system.

The way things have gone through my life, so far:
Vinyl Records -> CD+/-SACD -> computer files
AM Radio -> FM Stereo Radio -> HD Radio transmission -> Internet Streaming
B&W TV -> Color TV -> Digital TV -> HD Digital TV -> Internet Video Streaming

While I really enjoy my vinyl collection, it IS a lot of work. And I agree that most contemporary vinyl is produced from a digital recording.

The modern day master recording includes analog music converted to digital, and perhaps digital music itself, massaged, and mixed into the final master digital file. This master file is resampled into the various commercial files for sale, and converted back to analog to press into a record. That’s a lot of A to D, and D to A, not even counting the mixing, compression algorithm, etc. one can imagine how this is different from analog music recorded to analog tape, mixing being done via analog mixing boards, then pressed into vinyl.

All music is subject to the production/mixing process (except live music!)

There is also a lot of emotion tied to music system expenses. I have trended to the ease of digital music playback over the years, and put most my $ there. I hope to keep my vinyl system, as it is somewhat therapeutic to handle the records etc. If the upcoming move precludes the vinyl rig, I’ll be fine with my Digital.

While I enjoy the scientific angles, discussions, and advances, most people, including me, are looking for an emotional response from music. The math, and science are needed, but science still does not accurately describe the human emotional response, which is quite multifactorial, and unique to each individual. And even that changes over time.

Al M. said:

One of the mistakes that completely drive me up the wall is when some Americans write:

dependant

when really what they mean is:

dependent

Click to expand...

Of course, I agree. There are a bunch of ones like this.

Al M. said:

Indeed, different people have different sensitivities towards different DACs with respect to

Those who suffer from digital induced headaches might want to look for other DACs that suit

So it varies from individual to individual.

Click to expand...

This is basically what i'm saying. I have had my system playing vinyl that was fatiguing. I had to turn it down. Does that mean digital is better. For me, it meant figure it out. That is no longer an issue now.

And I still say to the digital naysayers, if someone were to go into your system and add a reasonable digital setup, then play records and vinyl without you knowing which was which, I bet in short order you would be hating on hmmmm, not sure. And loving on, hmmm not sure. They are so similar I can't tell them apart. But I love my vinyl. See, I was right 3 out of 10 times so my vinyl is better.

wil said:

Exactly. There seems to be the need here to periodically confirm a subjective sense of superiority.
No doubt this constantly occurs on other male dominated Internet forums as well, not just in audio. I’ve often thought this would be a more interesting place if there were just a few women here.

Click to expand...

Take up knitting ! I am sure there are plenty of women in the knitting forums.

Lagonda said:

Take up knitting ! I am sure there are plenty of women in the knitting forums.

Click to expand...

And they stream while knitting, so a good fit

Al M. said:

I do agree, Ron, that mistakes in grammar can be annoying, even though I am not immune to making them myself.

Your complaint about apostrophes is a valid one.

One of the mistakes that completely drive me up the wall is when some Americans write:

dependant

when really what they mean is:

dependent

Folks, where is the education?

Click to expand...

Al and Ron, I am a pretty bad speller, and when you factor in typing on a small screen on a social media platform like this, the result is often bad. It’s partially me and it’s partially the educational system or my lack of attention and disinterest in details. That’s a whole different discussion.

I’m sorry if these small transgressions or mistakes or evidence of poor education drive you up the wall. I guess we could all spend a lot of time complaining about things, but I’m here to share ideas and to learn about our hobby not to read lectures about others’ poor grammar.

PeterA said:

I’m sorry if these small transgressions or mistakes or evidence of poor education drive you up the wall. I guess we could all spend a lot of time complaining about things, but I’m here to share ideas and to learn about our hobby not to read lectures about others’ poor grammar.

Click to expand...

Well, when it comes to grammar I usually hold things in and do not give lectures (have I ever given one before?). But while we were already discussing grammar, I just wanted to vent some frustration that I usually keep for myself. Sorry if that was offensive.

PeterA said:

Al and Ron, I am a pretty bad speller, and when you factor in typing on a small screen on a social media platform like this, the result is often bad. It’s partially me and it’s partially the educational system or my lack of attention and disinterest in details. That’s a whole different discussion.

I’m sorry if these small transgressions or mistakes or evidence of poor education drive you up the wall. I guess we could all spend a lot of time complaining about things, but I’m here to share ideas and to learn about our hobby not to read lectures about others’ poor grammar.

Click to expand...

i'm a 72 year old hunt and peck typist, doing my best. and likely the worst speller on this forum. too late for those things to change. i do make an effort to compose sentences and paragraphs in a coherent way and commonly edit my posts multiple times after posting to make them readable.....as my raw output can border on the pathetic. while i respect that some of us have very high expectations in the minutia of writing and punctuation and spelling, to me i care about intent and context, not so much form or detail.

yet i'm understanding that we all have some hot buttons and have a need to herd the cats a little. no big deal.

PeterA said:

I’m here to share ideas and to learn about our hobby not to read lectures about others’ poor grammar.

Click to expand...

+1

PeterA said:

Al and Ron, I am a pretty bad speller, and when you factor in typing on a small screen on a social media platform like this, the result is often bad. It’s partially me and it’s partially the educational system or my lack of attention and disinterest in details. That’s a whole different discussion.

I’m sorry if these small transgressions or mistakes or evidence of poor education drive you up the wall. I guess we could all spend a lot of time complaining about things, but I’m here to share ideas and to learn about our hobby not to read lectures about others’ poor grammar.

Click to expand...

On the bright side, GrammerGate may have derailed the thread subject.

Ron Resnick said:

Seriously, I apologize for offending you.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

rDin said:

Dude!! Very un-dude! To clarify, I'm "one of those" who is interested in *good faith* conversation (which your comment isn't, btw). By all means challenge *my arguments*, but keep the comments relevant. This is one of the better forums for good faith discussion. Let's try to keep it that way: personal attacks and bad faith tactics only serve to sidetrack meaningful conversations.

Click to expand...

Sorry for the tone of my post. Too agressive. So I will limit myself to one of my previous questions. If your opinion is indeed true, why do folks, some on this forum with very resolving systems, happily enjoy listening to digital?

Good faith arguments are always best case but require two people to occur. I haven't seen anyone trying to engage you on your desired technical "reconstruction" side of the discussion.

thedudeabides said:

Sorry for the tone of my post. Too agressive.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

thedudeabides said:

If your opinion is indeed true, why do folks, some on this forum with very resolving systems, happily enjoy listening to digital?

Click to expand...

To me, that just suggests that reconstruction doesn't need to be 100% accurate to enjoy digital music. I mean plenty of people are happy listening to mp3. We wouldn't call that an accurate reconstruction, but it still satisfies.

So, taking digital on it's own, 100% reconstruction accuracy may not be necessary. But in the context of the original question (why do some still prefer vinyl), it's the one thing, all others considered, that I'm most convinced by as the most likely answer as to why we are hearing differences and why some, myself included, still feel that analog sources have an edge over current state of the art digital. I am happy to be proven wrong on reconstruction.