Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

Al M. said:
Not exactly. There is no problem of an "artifact" here. The "pre- and post echo" ripples are a natural result of the signal being bandwidth-limited.

This is explained and very well demonstrated here, at 17:20 in the video. It is worthwhile watching the entire video, as it dispels with a lot of false myths around digital:

Click to expand...
I watched the video. You need to check impulse response IOT see pre and post echo not the frequency-amplitude based oscilloscope graph.

The presenter of the video is as ignorant as people who believe there is no difference between usb cables or digital cables at all. If he had used a dCS vivaldi instead of cheap plastic dac that he used in the video the results would be the same on the oscilloscope screen. Does that mean dCS vivaldi sounds the same with the cheap dac? Certainly not.

The first thing to learn in this hobby is; if there is no measurable difference between two signals it may be due to inability of measuring equipment. Use your ears.
 
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If its audible and not from placebo because i spent millions on a DAC phenom, then you’re measuring the wrong parameter ..!
 
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I hear Mike say he plays mostly classical. And all older analog classical. And a little all a analog jazz. And that is the magic in his system.

I hear Bonzo repeat over and over, what is the source material. Others too.

Back to Mike. I heard him say, digital classical is not that great.
I also hear him say, digital vinyl is a crap shoot of quality compared to Qobuz. Many times the Qobuz is better than the digital vinyl.

That to me say, if your into classical and old jazz, a well applied vinyl setup is going to be satisfying. The best media available with lots of good clean records still out there.

If you hate classical and jazz, then don't waste your money on vinyl. Its unlikely the digitally recorded and mastered vinyl will sound better than Qobuz. Focus on digital as the digital will probably blow away the low quality vinyl.

This discussion superfically circles the most important aspect of selecting audio equipment. What music do you like? Focus your equipment selection around what makes you feel good when you sit and listen. If its not classical and jazz, don't waste your time with vinyl.
 
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godofwealth said:
It makes no scientific sense. And I am nothing if not a diehard scientist with a PhD in computer science to boot, having spent a large part of my career teaching in one of the world’s greatest PhD programs in CS, and now working at one of the world”s leading software firms in the Bay Area. I’m no technological Luddite. I’ve invested heavily in digital with top solid state and tube DACs.

But each time I play my vinyl on one of my turntables, man oh man, why do I always feel that digital sucks? I’m listening to a garden variety pop album — Fleetwood Mac — on an SME 20/12 table with the V12 arm with a Koetsu Onyx Platinum feeding the ARC Ref 3SE phono stage. The sound is organic, so compelling to listen to that my left brain analytical mind that whispers this is all distortion sounding pleasant is quashed by my right brain saying who cares when it sounds so good?

Am I delusional?
Click to expand...
No...you are not delusional, you're just reacting to what I call your listening paradigm. This paradigm was built from infancy, sounds that soothe the mind and the psyche. Although digital might be more accurate - it doesn't have the effect over the mind and will of an individual. I know this sounds very metaphysical, but I believe the listening experience is like that. There's no scientific verification for it, as the last variable in listening is the listener themselves. Take it all in - what were they surrounded by when they grew up? What physical changes have happened to their hearing over the years? With some people - this paradigm is broken by the new. However in others, a desire for what is comfortable - not what is perfect is the ultimate goal. I've come to grips with this - my paradigm is somewhat broken and I'm open to listen to both formats (although lossless digital is my primary source through an R2R type dac). Yes distortion is pleasant to the ears (Hammond B-3, rock guitar, and even effects on voices), a myriad of purposeful distortions exist in music - I believe the dislike of auto-tune proves we do not actually care for what is perfect. It's in imperfections that humanize us - and those can sound pleasant at times.
 
Kingrex said:
I hear Mike say he plays mostly classical. And all older analog classical. And a little all a analog jazz. And that is the magic in his system.

I hear Bonzo repeat over and over, what is the source material. Others too.

Back to Mike. I heard him say, digital classical is not that great.
I also hear him say, digital vinyl is a crap shoot of quality compared to Qobuz. Many times the Qobuz is better than the digital vinyl.

That to me say, if your into classical and old jazz, a well applied vinyl setup is going to be satisfying. The best media available with lots of good clean records still out there.

If you hate classical and jazz, then don't waste your money on vinyl. Its unlikely the digitally recorded and mastered vinyl will sound better than Qobuz. Focus on digital as the digital will probably blow away the low quality vinyl.

This discussion superfically circles the most important aspect of selecting audio equipment. What music do you like? Focus your equipment selection around what makes you feel good when you sit and listen. If its not classical and jazz, don't waste your time with vinyl.
Click to expand...

Old rock vinyl is brilliant
 
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Sometimes you hear something that drills so deep it's mark is permanent. In the broader sense of the analogue vs digital debate The following conversation biased me terribly. I was working for a Mastering & Editing co in the early 90's. The guy who ran the place asked me if I thought music was art. I said of course. He asked if I'd prefer a lazer copy or an oil painting? I realized my perception of digital was that of a cheap facsimile. I appreciate here the discussion is focused on sound, no matter how I try to set aside the above mind worm I have been utterly unsuccessful it taints my enjoyment of digital sound before the first note. I am not proud of this.
 
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My last comment #223 probably applies to amps and speakers too. Dynamic drivers and solid state do wonders for modern digitally mastered music. My wife loves the meat and flesh. Horns and tubes do wonders for classical and jazz on vnyl. Again, my wife is meeee on my stereo and classical. If I'm not home, she has Black Pumas or something of the sort on. She would much rather have my Sonus Faber and CJ system than the one I currently have.
 
bonzo75 said:
Old rock vinyl is brilliant
Click to expand...
Yes, and you like old rock on horns too. I'm talking embracement of current music. All digital. Its a sound. A sound that does not benefit from vinyl, and maybe not a horn. Maybe a horn is good. But The Birds. Do I really want a horn for that. Or a Wilson and Boulder. I would pick the Wilson and Boulder to be that "Oil Painting" of the song.
 
Kingrex said:
My last comment #223 probably applies to amps and speakers too. Dynamic drivers and solid state do wonders for modern digitally mastered music. My wife loves the meat and flesh. Horns and tubes do wonders for classical and jazz on vnyl. Again, my wife is meeee on my stereo and classical. If I'm not home, she has Black Pumas or something of the sort on. She would much rather have my Sonus Faber and CJ system than the one I currently have.
Click to expand...

I can believe this especially the look, it’s even more important to the women :)
 
Kingrex said:
Yes, and you like old rock on horns too. I'm talking embracement of current music. All digital. Its a sound. A sound that does not benefit from vinyl, and maybe not a horn. Maybe a horn is good. But The Birds. Do I really want a horn for that. Or a Wilson and Boulder. I would pick the Wilson and Boulder to be that "Oil Painting" of the song.
Click to expand...

Current music or rock is fine with certain types of horns, not all horns.

regarding recordings, unless current or old music is well recorded on vinyl, I won’t bother spending. I have heard 100k analog set ups sound poor with poor recordings. As it should.

But then current music might be poorly digital recorded as well, so why bother with any expensive or elaborate hifi to play it? If you have good hifi, play good recordings and performances
 
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Audiohertz2 said:
I can believe this especially the look, it’s even more important to the women :)
Click to expand...
If I had the money, I might ditch my system for the Daniel Hertz set. I know one guy who has it on order. Took his wife to hear it. She loved if. In a sense, I'm tired of building the stereo for me. She plays it a lot too. She would rather have one button to push. And, the idea of watching Youtube video of bands and having good sound to go with it is intriguing.
 
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Kingrex said:
I hear Mike say he plays mostly classical. And all older analog classical. And a little all a analog jazz. And that is the magic in his system.

I hear Bonzo repeat over and over, what is the source material. Others too.

Back to Mike. I heard him say, digital classical is not that great.
I also hear him say, digital vinyl is a crap shoot of quality compared to Qobuz. Many times the Qobuz is better than the digital vinyl.

That to me say, if your into classical and old jazz, a well applied vinyl setup is going to be satisfying. The best media available with lots of good clean records still out there.

If you hate classical and jazz, then don't waste your money on vinyl. Its unlikely the digitally recorded and mastered vinyl will sound better than Qobuz. Focus on digital as the digital will probably blow away the low quality vinyl.

This discussion superfically circles the most important aspect of selecting audio equipment. What music do you like? Focus your equipment selection around what makes you feel good when you sit and listen. If its not classical and jazz, don't waste your time with vinyl.
Click to expand...
My experience doesn’t conform with this. I listen to a lot of classical and jazz and have found many great recordings on.Qobuz. With classical, more than jazz, it could be more of a hunting process. But fortunately there is lot to choose from!
 
mtemur said:
I watched the video. You need to check impulse response IOT see pre and post echo not the frequency-amplitude based oscilloscope graph.

The presenter of the video is as ignorant as people who believe there is no difference between usb cables or digital cables at all.
Click to expand...

The presenter is not ignorant, he is correct. And even though his particular argument may not be related to impulse response, he is also correct in centering everything around the bandwidth-limited nature of the signal.

As Archimago writes in below link, quote:
"Remember that an impulse is an "illegal", non-bandwidth limited test signal that would not exist in nature nor in decent PCM recordings (alas, there are non-decent recordings out in the wild)."

archimago.blogspot.com

HOWTO / MUSINGS: Playing with Digital Filtering - Impulse Responses and Frequency Effects resembling Chord, Old-Skool Meridian, MQA, NOS...

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.
archimago.blogspot.com archimago.blogspot.com



As for the audibility of ringing across different filters, see this article in Stereophile:

Ringing False: Digital Audio's Ubiquitous Filter

Much as I like the prospect of being able to grunt a heartfelt Je ne regrette rien immediately before expiring, I know there will be too many what-ifs and wish-I-hadn'ts to make that even remotely possible. But here is one missed opportunity that won't flash before me, because John Atkinson has...
www.stereophile.com www.stereophile.com

As the article explains, they had a hard time reliably hearing differences in blind tests.

mtemur said:
If he had used a dCS vivaldi instead of cheap plastic dac that he used in the video the results would be the same on the oscilloscope screen. Does that mean dCS vivaldi sounds the same with the cheap dac? Certainly not.
Click to expand...

Of course they don't sound the same, I agree.

mtemur said:
The first thing to learn in this hobby is; if there is no measurable difference between two signals it may be due to inability of measuring equipment. Use your ears.
Click to expand...

This we most definitely agree on!
 
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prerich said:
No...you are not delusional, you're just reacting to what I call your listening paradigm. This paradigm was built from infancy, sounds that soothe the mind and the psyche. Although digital might be more accurate - it doesn't have the effect over the mind and will of an individual. I know this sounds very metaphysical, but I believe the listening experience is like that. There's no scientific verification for it, as the last variable in listening is the listener themselves. Take it all in - what were they surrounded by when they grew up? What physical changes have happened to their hearing over the years? With some people - this paradigm is broken by the new. However in others, a desire for what is comfortable - not what is perfect is the ultimate goal. I've come to grips with this - my paradigm is somewhat broken and I'm open to listen to both formats (although lossless digital is my primary source through an R2R type dac). Yes distortion is pleasant to the ears (Hammond B-3, rock guitar, and even effects on voices), a myriad of purposeful distortions exist in music - I believe the dislike of auto-tune proves we do not actually care for what is perfect. It's in imperfections that humanize us - and those can sound pleasant at times.
Click to expand...
Auto tune is a world away from “perfect.” It’s the ultimate bastardization of the human voice. I don’t really see how it has anything to do with digital audio per se. Rather it’s about the abysmal state of processed music in our popular culture.
 
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wil said:
My experience doesn’t conform with this. I listen to a lot of classical and jazz and have found many great recordings on.Qobuz. With classical, more than jazz, it could be more of a hunting process. But fortunately there is lot to choose from!
Click to expand...
Not saying you can't. My favorite Nutcracker was a Russian Bolshevik version on Qobuz. Been removed.

What I hear many others saying is if you really like classical, and you focus hard on your vinyl, you will most likely gravitate away from digital playback of classical music as your library of classical all analog records grows.

You will most likely continue to use digital.to play other more modern progressive music that is digitally mastered and offered on both media. Like Taylor Swift. Is she really going to sound better on vinyl compared to a stream.
 
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Rex,

what i wrote in my response to you had lots of details which to me are important. i hope you are ok with my clarifying what you wrote as representative of what i said. to me it was not clear and was not properly qualified.

best regards,

Mike

Kingrex said:
I hear Mike say he plays mostly classical. And all older analog classical. And a little all a analog jazz. And that is the magic in his system.
Click to expand...
your question was:

Hey Mike. Roughly what % of records that you listen to regularly have any digital processing?

what i said.

over the last 5-10 years, very few records i play 'often' have a digital source. maybe one in 20 or one in 30. most of those with a digital source i play now are recent Jazz recordings by Charles Lloyd, or Christian McBride and a few others like that. prior to that i did have a few favorites which were digitally recorded; such as 'Famous Blue Raincoat' or 'Brothers In Arms' . over the last 5-10 years, i'm mostly playing string quartets, other chamber music, violin, piano, and cello solos and concertos, and large orchestral for Lp's and some jazz and blues favorites which are analog based. the new all analog DG Original Source series has had heavy rotation.

Kingrex said:
Back to Mike. I heard him say, digital classical is not that great.
Click to expand...
this is misleading and needs to be qualified specifically. i realize what you likely intended to say digital vinyl classical.
Kingrex said:
I also hear him say, digital vinyl is a crap shoot of quality compared to Qobuz. Many times the Qobuz is better than the digital vinyl.
Click to expand...
what i said.

as my digital has improved i lean toward the native source file for most digitally sourced recordings. so most digitally sourced Lp's are not played unless it's requested. some are very good for sure, but that is just how i do it. i find that it's a toss up whether a digitally sourced recording sounds better as an Lp. some older dsd sourced Lp's are mostly better with the native file.
results all over the board. 50% of the time the streaming file is equal or better to the Lp of current music. but now that i have Level 4 Wadax that could get skewed more toward the streaming file.

i do purchase current music Lp's which are almost all digitally sourced, but those are rarely played very many times. not that i don't enjoy them, but few really grab my attention for repeated plays; although there are exceptions. and mostly i can grab the digital easily which many times is equal. i do purchase some mono reissues too, but those are obviously all analog.
Kingrex said:
That to me say, if your into classical and old jazz, a well applied vinyl setup is going to be satisfying. The best media available with lots of good clean records still out there.
Click to expand...
the point you missed that was central to what i wrote is that having digital such as the Wadax skews how i view my vinyl choices. as it gets close enough or is better than lots of digitally sourced vinyl that i'm then doing the files or streaming. and Level 4 pushes that further.

ever since changing from the MSB Select II/Extreme to the Wadax it is a different equation in my system as to how i approach this whole question.

i'm not anti-digitally sourced vinyl. but what i listen to is effected by my alternate choices.
 
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SoundMann said:
A different storage medium such as my full spectrum frequency-modulated optical analog disc format perhaps?
Click to expand...
Was it laserdisc that had analog audio? Did anybody every hear that in action??? Any good?
 
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prerich said:
No...you are not delusional, you're just reacting to what I call your listening paradigm. This paradigm was built from infancy, sounds that soothe the mind and the psyche. Although digital might be more accurate - it doesn't have the effect over the mind and will of an individual. I know this sounds very metaphysical, but I believe the listening experience is like that.
Click to expand...

In this statement you conflate your own personal, subjective perceptions and preferences with those that humankind as a whole is supposed to have: "it doesn't have the effect over the mind and will of an individual" (emphasis mine). Don't you think this is a bit arrogant and generalizing? My own mind, will and psyche do not agree with you. If you would have said instead, "over my individual mind and will" there would have been nothing to object.

Where does this leave us? As I said in my first post on the thread, there is no point in bashing each other for different subjective sensibilities and preferences.

Funny that it is mostly certain vinyl enthusiasts who want to impose their subjective perceptions and preferences onto others and show the superiority of their tastes that should be shared by everyone, not lovers of digital. But we have discussed this curious phenomenon already.
 
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Al M. said:
As for the audibility of ringing across different filters, see this article in Stereophile:

Ringing False: Digital Audio's Ubiquitous Filter

Much as I like the prospect of being able to grunt a heartfelt Je ne regrette rien immediately before expiring, I know there will be too many what-ifs and wish-I-hadn'ts to make that even remotely possible. But here is one missed opportunity that won't flash before me, because John Atkinson has...
www.stereophile.com www.stereophile.com
As the article explains, they had a hard time reliably hearing differences in blind tests
Click to expand...
I can hear differences between digital filters and I believe I'm not the only one here. I wonder does it ever occur to people at stereophile who did this test maybe the equipment they're using is the reason for not hearing differences between filters (except maximum phase).
 
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