Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

[bonzo75]

Kedar, of what exactly would you have thought Mike would have been able to convince others? Do you even think he has tried? From what I can tell, Mike has always done his own thing for his own enjoyment and graciously shares his efforts with those who want to visit.

That was just a joke on my part. Mike enjoys the hanging out and debate part and is not looking to convince, just to join the discussion

 

[jbrrp1]

That was just a joke on my part. Mike enjoys the hanging out and debate part and is not looking to convince, just to join the discussion

Well, he converted one. A visit to Mike's last June was the final straw that convinced me. Three hours of digital selections that sounded amazing on his system, followed by three hours of vinyl using each of Mike's three turntables convinced me that I had to jump down the vinyl rabbit hole, too, based upon the SQ being just "more" to my ears. I truly wanted to simplify and consolidate on digital only, but to my ears I'd be leaving something on the table that I didn't want to. Digital is great and satisfying, to be sure; vinyl is even more so, to my ears. Mike's was the third well-cultivated system where I got to do this comparison, and each led to the same conclusion, his with the biggest exclamation point.

 

[PeterA]

Well, he converted one. A visit to Mike's last June was the final straw that convinced me. Three hours of digital selections that sounded amazing on his system, followed by three hours of vinyl using each of Mike's three turntables convinced me that I had to jump down the vinyl rabbit hole, too, based upon the SQ being just "more" to my ears. I truly wanted to simplify and consolidate on digital only, but to my ears I'd be leaving something on the table that I didn't want to. Digital is great and satisfying, to be sure; vinyl is even more so, to my ears. Mike's was the third well-cultivated system where I got to do this comparison, and each led to the same conclusion, his with the biggest exclamation point.

Thank you for sharing this interesting comment. What digital did you hear at Mike’s, the MSB or Wadax, and what turntable cartridge arm did you settle on?

Could you tell us a bit about the comparisons at the other two systems? I’m also curious about what you mean by “more” and what the digital still leaves on the table.

There’s a lot of discussion in these debates about preferences and which is better, etc. etc. I am more interested in the differences people here, regardless of preference or superiority.

 

[jbrrp1]

Thank you for sharing this interesting comment. What digital did you hear at Mike’s, the MSB or Wadax, and what turntable cartridge arm did you settle on?

Could you tell us a bit about the comparisons at the other two systems? I’m also curious about what you mean by “more” and what the digital still leaves on the table.

There’s a lot of discussion in these debates about preferences and which is better, etc. etc. I am more interested in the differences people here, regardless of preference or superiority.

It was the Wadax Server/DAC combo without PS or level 4 cables. Two other systems were very nice ones, too. In fact, one had the TAD R1's (bigger brothers to my CR-1's) and the exact same Taiko Extreme + Lampi Horizon that I was running, so, very close to home and meaningful for me. That system had the TOTL Sikorski table with DS Audio cartridge running into all TOTL DartZeel electronics. The other system sported the same Wadax set up as Mike's and a Dohmann table with Safir 9 arm and Ortofon MC2022 cartridge. Electronics were CH Precision P1/L10/M10 monos driving Magico M6's.

What I heard was a finer level of interstitial revelation of harmonic information that made the artists inflections subtly more apparent to me, and the proceedings just feel "fleshier". It simply sounded like I got more of the performance and felt the music more, as a result. I heard more dynamic "snap", both micro and macro, which is part of what shapes this fleshier quality. The leading edge of transients just had a truer, cleaner start somehow. That's what I mean by "more". It's not gigantic, but it is important and meaningful to my ears. All systems served this difference up to my ears, albeit to varying degrees.

These impressions were on recordings of exact same provenance. The most telling to me were some Neil Young recordings that he issued later in life: "Live at Massey Hall 1971" and "ROXY: Tonight's the Night Live". Neil took personal care in ensuring SQ in both vinyl and hi res digital, all from the same analog master tapes. On "ROXY", you are really in the bar! More so with the vinyl, IME.

As my moniker displays, I split the difference between some the elements in systems I heard for my vinyl upgrade.

 

[Rexp]

Well, he converted one. A visit to Mike's last June was the final straw that convinced me. Three hours of digital selections that sounded amazing on his system, followed by three hours of vinyl using each of Mike's three turntables convinced me that I had to jump down the vinyl rabbit hole, too, based upon the SQ being just "more" to my ears. I truly wanted to simplify and consolidate on digital only, but to my ears I'd be leaving something on the table that I didn't want to. Digital is great and satisfying, to be sure; vinyl is even more so, to my ears. Mike's was the third well-cultivated system where I got to do this comparison, and each led to the same conclusion, his with the biggest exclamation point.

You don't even have to visit Mike to know his vinyl sounds better, at least with the analogue recordings in the thread below.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/visit-to-mike-lavignes-house.38362/

No amount of upgrades to a system can turn a poor digital recording into a good one.

 

[PeterA]

It was the Wadax Server/DAC combo without PS or level 4 cables. Two other systems were very nice ones, too. In fact, one had the TAD R1's (bigger brothers to my CR-1's) and the exact same Taiko Extreme + Lampi Horizon that I was running, so, very close to home and meaningful for me. That system had the TOTL Sikorski table with DS Audio cartridge running into all TOTL DartZeel electronics. The other system sported the same Wadax set up as Mike's and a Dohmann table with Safir 9 arm and Ortofon MC2022 cartridge. Electronics were CH Precision P1/L10/M10 monos driving Magico M6's.

What I heard was a finer level of interstitial revelation of harmonic information that made the artists inflections subtly more apparent to me, and the proceedings just feel "fleshier". It simply sounded like I got more of the performance and felt the music more, as a result. I heard more dynamic "snap", both micro and macro, which is part of what shapes this fleshier quality. The leading edge of transients just had a truer, cleaner start somehow. That's what I mean by "more". It's not gigantic, but it is important and meaningful to my ears. All systems served this difference up to my ears, albeit to varying degrees.

These impressions were on recordings of exact same provenance. The most telling to me were some Neil Young recordings that he issued later in life: "Live at Massey Hall 1971" and "ROXY: Tonight's the Night Live". Neil took personal care in ensuring SQ in both vinyl and hi res digital, all from the same analog master tapes. On "ROXY", you are really in the bar! More so with the vinyl, IME.

As my moniker displays, I split the difference between some the elements in systems I heard for my vinyl upgrade.

Thank you for that description. It’s very clear and I can definitely relate to what you are describing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Level 4 did arrive, and will most likely "by degrees" change the equation addressed in this thread. if you get a chance to hear Level 4 Wadax in a mature system it's worth doing. that linked thread has my viewpoints about it.

 

[treitz3]

Blah, blah, blah......same bat channel. Same argument. Why? It will never be settled.

Tom

 

[Kingrex]

@Mike Lavigne
Hey Mike. Roughly what % of records that you listen to regularly have any digital processing?

Do you find vinyl with any sort of digital footprint to be as satisfying as AAA vinyl?

If you have a digitally mastered vinyl album, do you find the Qobuz version to sound exactly the same, or is the vinyl version still more satisfying in your system.

Thanks

 

[Rexp]

Blah, blah, blah......same bat channel. Same argument. Why? It will never be settled.

Tom

I believe it will be settled. Technology will be developed that clearly identifies what's wrong with most if not all digital playback.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

@Mike Lavigne
Hey Mike. Roughly what % of records that you listen to regularly have any digital processing?

over the last 5-10 years, very few records i play 'often' have a digital source. maybe one in 20 or one in 30. most of those with a digital source i play now are recent Jazz recordings by Charles Lloyd, or Christian McBride and a few others like that. prior to that i did have a few favorites which were digitally recorded; such as 'Famous Blue Raincoat' or 'Brothers In Arms' . over the last 5-10 years, i'm mostly playing string quartets, other chamber music, violin, piano, and cello solos and concertos, and large orchestral for Lp's and some jazz and blues favorites which are analog based. the new all analog DG Original Source series has had heavy rotation.

as my digital has improved i lean toward the native source file for most digitally sourced recordings. so most digitally sourced Lp's are not played unless it's requested. some are very good for sure, but that is just how i do it. i find that it's a toss up whether a digitally sourced recording sounds better as an Lp. some older dsd sourced Lp's are mostly better with the native file.

i do purchase current music Lp's which are almost all digitally sourced, but those are rarely played very many times. not that i don't enjoy them, but few really grab my attention for repeated plays; although there are exceptions. and mostly i can grab the digital easily which many times is equal. i do purchase some mono reissues too, but those are obviously all analog.

i am waiting for some Lp cabinet's to arrive which will allow me to really attack my 3000 piece classical collection i have sitting upstairs. i want to whittle it down to under 1000 keepers once i have the logistical space to proceed. then sell off the culls and get back my pool table space.. this will be almost 100% an all analog process but might keep some digitally sourced pressings if they sound great. i figure it will take a few years. no hurry.

Do you find vinyl with any sort of digital footprint to be as satisfying as AAA vinyl?

not really. digitally sourced vinyl has variable sins of omission in a comparative sense. but these days the issue is more performance quality, recording quality or transfer quality, than any obvious digital signature. in the bigger picture golden age vinyl is more natural and full bodied as a whole, but much of that is the performance, recording process and transfer process, as much as all analog related.

there is a wide variance in quality of digitally sourced current music vinyl. some is excellent. thanks to @jazdoc for his great recommendations for new music to keep me from becoming completely irrelevant. i have a separate shelf space for one's he has pointed me towards.

If you have a digitally mastered vinyl album, do you find the Qobuz version to sound exactly the same, or is the vinyl version still more satisfying in your system.

results all over the board. 50% of the time the streaming file is equal or better to the Lp of current music. but now that i have Level 4 Wadax that could get skewed more toward the streaming file.

Thanks

in general, digitally sourced Lp's are not a huge part of my vinyl listening. but that music is still important.

 

[rDin]

I believe it will be settled. Technology will be developed that clearly identifies what's wrong with most if not all digital playback.

Yes, I'm also optimistic that digital will be "solved" once and for all at some point.

The recurring question, "Why oh why do people continue to debate the same old thing?" just tells me that the issue remains unsolved, and continues to capture the attention of those who notice and comment out of curiosity. Certainly, bad faith conversations on this, or any contentious topic, are common, but those offer the opportunity to spot who debates honestly and who does not, so even they can be useful.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes, I'm also optimistic that digital will be "solved" once and for all at some point.

Wadax especially and also metronome have done that for a large part already .
Without using tubes .

DCS rossini sounds nice too ( in combination with tubes)

 

[morricab]

Wadax especially and also metronome have done that for a large part already .
Without using tubes .

DCS rossini sounds nice too ( in combination with tubes)

Not to mine and a lot of other ears...

 

[Gregm]

Drat. I hope the apostrophe police do not notice.

Of course I meant "you are NOT affected by the apostrophe epidemic".
Thank you for our patience!

 

[Al M.]

Of course I meant "you are NOT affected by the apostrophe epidemic".
Thank you for our patience!

Yes, Peter's apostrophes were perfect.

 

[bonzo75]

Luna plotting to combine Cat with apostrophe

 

[Al M.]

Yes, I'm also optimistic that digital will be "solved" once and for all at some point.

The recurring question, "Why oh why do people continue to debate the same old thing?" just tells me that the issue remains unsolved, and continues to capture the attention of those who notice and comment out of curiosity. Certainly, bad faith conversations on this, or any contentious topic, are common, but those offer the opportunity to spot who debates honestly and who does not, so even they can be useful.

I don’t think the issue remains unsolved. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't hear the problems on timing and transients that Rob Watts describes, neither compared to vinyl nor to unamplified live music. As I can see from your signature, you have the Chord Dave that is designed by him. Ironically, it has the reputation that, while clear and detailed sounding, it also sounds a bit "analytical".

Another question is how good your computer audio/streaming is. Last weekend I heard at a friend's house some new little, not very expensive, speakers that he tried for fun. They sounded pleasant and remarkably good on his excellent electronics, but on a solo violin recording that I know intimately and which we played early on, I thought there were some annoying extra harmonics that were out of place. I was wondering if those were speaker colorations, but then I also heard some trace of a telltale synthetic sound signature typical of suboptimal computer audio. I asked him if this was streaming, but it was local file. Still, this could also give a problem.

So I asked him to play the physical CD of the same solo violin recording (Rachel Barton Pine "Testament", with her playing Bach). After a few seconds we looked at each other and agreed, "this sounds so much better!". And all the extra harmonics on the violin that I had heard were gone. Turns out, those extra "harmonics" had not been speaker colorations but digital noise! They also appeared to affect transients, by the way.

We decided to ditch the computer audio and for the rest of the afternoon we listened to physical CD only, and also to some vinyl.

I know that computer audio/streaming *can* be done right, but most that I have heard has problems. Because I know how hard and/or expensive it can be to get it right I have never bothered with high-end streaming (on laptop/headphones I stream all the time) but continue to spin physical CDs. My playback system is well sorted out, including reclocker between CD transport and DAC (my friend also has a reclocker).

If I had suboptimal streaming like I have heard so often I would also prefer vinyl, strongly so. Sounds more natural. No wonder many prefer vinyl as well; it may well be that their digital is just not well sorted out and suffers from noise problems.

 

[bonzo75]

Well, he converted one. A visit to Mike's last June was the final straw that convinced me. Three hours of digital selections that sounded amazing on his system, followed by three hours of vinyl using each of Mike's three turntables convinced me that I had to jump down the vinyl rabbit hole, too, based upon the SQ being just "more" to my ears. I truly wanted to simplify and consolidate on digital only, but to my ears I'd be leaving something on the table that I didn't want to. Digital is great and satisfying, to be sure; vinyl is even more so, to my ears. Mike's was the third well-cultivated system where I got to do this comparison, and each led to the same conclusion, his with the biggest exclamation point.

Well done on shifting to the bright side. Apart from giving more realism and access to better recordings, you will also open up a new door of the hobby that is extremely exciting in the exploration and will keep you occupied, and if part of this hobby is “figuring out”, this is a great rabbit hole to do so.

You heard the vinyl sound more real than the digital at Mike’s, in another place you might find the digital sounding better than the analog. This is not because the digital is better, but because the analog either hasn’t been set up correctly, or more likely is using poor recordings. I did those mistakes of comparing the two, often with the same performance on CD and LP. This is NLF. There is nothing to match the right recordings going through the right signal path. Digital falls flat due to recording limitations.

And the entire system path is important. You can take the same recording and it can sound meh in some systems and awesome in another, which is because some systems are not letting the recording through.

You have set up your system and knowledge around digital. You will now use speakers and amps learned and gathered on your digital journey, to set up your analog. To me this is incorrect but there is no way around this intermediate step. You should, while evaluating, look at people who have set up completely around analog. Their systems may or may not be good, but will teach more about what to do and what not to. Just meet analog veterans. They have been around longer and learned more tricks of the trade.

 

[Gregm]

I know that computer audio/streaming *can* be done right, but most that I have heard has problems. My playback system is well sorted out, including reclocker between CD transport and DAC (my friend also has a reclocker).

If you ever wish to try streaming, maybe add a USB isolator device alongside your reclocker; it helped me a lot.

If I had suboptimal streaming like I have heard so often I would also prefer vinyl, strongly so. Sounds more natural. No wonder many prefer vinyl as well; it may well be that their digital is just not well sorted out and suffers from noise problems.

Agreed. I'd add, possible phase problems as well