Low volume sound

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NZS

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Jan 27, 2023
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Would be much appreciated for advice in how to achieve low volume sound level playing whilst retaining full clarity, micro details, dynamics, etc. in a small room of 15 m2 (160 square feet).

To date, addressing my room acoustics, isolation, power and upstream feed to a Kinki Studios EX M1 Amplifier and Buchardt S400 Mk II speakers does produce a very good sound.
At a certain volume level, the sound, becomes even more alive, up front, with a more detail soundstage.
This volume level is by no means loud, and to most people with normal hearing including myself not so long ago, this decibel level of sound wouldn’t be a problem or classed excessive, but nowadays, as the years progress, the ears are becoming more sensitive.

  • Would changing speakers be a good place to start looking, or addressing the type of amplifier (class, power/head room, current etc) return better results?
  • Are there certain speakers better at playing at lower sound levels or certain amps to drive the sound through a speaker at lower sound volume levels and whilst still retaining all the finer details?
  • Or does the law of physics play the biggest part in a small room and changing components can only change the outcome marginally if any?

Much appreciate your thoughts.
 
I feel that this video is usefull to have viewed at this time. It talks about a speaker and mentions the Buchards…

And then you see this video…

 
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Something with an old fashioned “loudness” switch would be a good “known and proven” place to start.
The rest has almost nothing to do with it…
… but some argument that an amp with a lot of harmonic distortion products might have some merit.

I would try to find some preamp, or integrated, with a loudness switch. If you can demo one, that would be even better.
 
As @Holmz points out, a "loudness" switch enhances the frequencies where our ears are less sensitive - i.e. bass & highs.
You might also try to sit closer (i.e. listen nearfield) to the speakers...
There is nothing wrong with your equipment!
 
If you have a room treatment like rock wool, acoustic sponge etc most probably those are causing the fatigue.

IMHO get rid of commercial room treatments, install dedicated power line, consider upgrading to better cables, stand, tweaks etc. To change the components is the last thing to do.
 
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Yeah…
So when you play normal loud with a system.
And say you have speakers situated on stands and they Are on hard floors, maybe there is Even spikes to the floor. You also have smooth sounding speakers that need a lot of amplifier say it has 215w into 8 ohms and these speakers dont like nearfield listening. And when you lower the playback level you loose that floor rebound and as @mtemur says you have a treated room that eats microdetails dampens them out at lower playback..
Remove the treatments… Get some loudness curvature. Maybe add subwoofers - that really help with low volume playback. Brighter speaker, suitable for more nearfield listening. Ribbon tweeters will help.

Smooth sounding farfield loudspeakers that NEED lots of current … when you lower them below their desired threshold playback… you gotta start cheating… on them. Date other loudspeakers. With more radiating surface in the needed deep and High frequencies.
Alta Audio Alyssa
Kerr Acoustics k300 Mk 3
Transmission Line designs come to mind…
Subwoofers known for deep sound quality and Good midbass as well.
Pull main speakers close(r) to rear wall. Get more room gain going.
Don’t spike them. Suspend them. Get that clarity out of them.
Add supertweeters, also a Good trick
Speaker cables known to be brighter sounding.
Smooth organic and warm don’t scale down in volume and retain microdetails…certainly not in a treated room…
 
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Engaging sound at low/moderate SPL’s is a combination of a number of factors.

great first watt in your amplifier + reasonably flat impedance and reasonably high efficiency speakers + lively acoustics + great power grid + low signal path and ambient noise + good low frequency extension and smooth high frequencies + smooth mid bass response.

Each one of those factors effect music nuance and jump factor.

The best sources and media also are best at moderate volumes. And the recording itself and musical genre matter.

There are many fine sounding systems that are not top level at low volumes, that take a kick in the butt to get going. But the best systems are great at moderate volume as those attributes deliver at all volumes.
 
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mtemur said:
If you have a room treatment like rock wool, acoustic sponge etc most probably those are causing the fatigue.

IMHO get rid of commercial room treatments, install dedicated power line, consider upgrading to better cables, stand, tweaks etc. To change the components is the last thing to do.
Click to expand...

Really? I don’t see how the science behind the Fletcher-Munson curves can be addressed by anything other than a loudness switch.

Throwing money away on cables, stands, tweaks, and line conditioners, will take away from getting the front end that has a loudness switch, while simultaneously doing little to overcome the simple proven facts of human biology.

It’s not even like putting a bandaid on the problem. It seems more like calling a witch doctor to come up with a cure.
 
Holmz said:
Really? I don’t see how the science behind the Fletcher-Munson curves can be addressed by anything other than a loudness switch.
Click to expand...
Loudness switch can seem to help but not solve the problem. My point is getting rid of synthetic treatments if there is any. I don’t want the sound in my room to bounce from sponge or rock wool. I know many will oppose but nobody can change my mind cause I heard how those acoustic treatments sound like. They sure do correct some irregularities in frequency response but also impose their character on sound. Everyone is familiar with sound signature of copper and silver cables. When you measure both cables result is the same frequency response but different sound. Cable material’s character is added to the signal but we cannot easily measure. The same goes here; acoustic treatment material’s character is added to the sound depending on where the sound is reflected from. If it’s reflected from a sponge it sounds like a sponge. They wipe the lifelike tone of instruments and cause fatigue or un involving sound.

IMHO acoustic treatment should be done by easy to come by natural stuff like wood, cotton, glass etc.

Holmz said:
Throwing money away on cables, stands, tweaks, and line conditioners, will take away from getting the front end that has a loudness switch, while simultaneously doing little to overcome the simple proven facts of human biology.
Click to expand...
It’s not throwing away money it’s improving your setup. When your setup improves to a certain point you will no longer ask for a loudness switch. Do you ask for a loudness switch for live music when they are playing very soft?

Holmz said:
It’s not even like putting a bandaid on the problem. It seems more like calling a witch doctor to come up with a cure.
Click to expand...
My listening room’s RT60 response is extremely flat at 0.38sec on 63Hz to 0.28sec on 8KHz and I have no acoustic sponge. Sometimes witch doctoring may work. ;)
 
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NZS said:
Would be much appreciated for advice in how to achieve low volume sound level playing whilst retaining full clarity, micro details, dynamics, etc. in a small room of 15 m2 (160 square feet).

To date, addressing my room acoustics, isolation, power and upstream feed to a Kinki Studios EX M1 Amplifier and Buchardt S400 Mk II speakers does produce a very good sound.
At a certain volume level, the sound, becomes even more alive, up front, with a more detail soundstage.
This volume level is by no means loud, and to most people with normal hearing including myself not so long ago, this decibel level of sound wouldn’t be a problem or classed excessive, but nowadays, as the years progress, the ears are becoming more sensitive.

  • Would changing speakers be a good place to start looking, or addressing the type of amplifier (class, power/head room, current etc) return better results?
  • Are there certain speakers better at playing at lower sound levels or certain amps to drive the sound through a speaker at lower sound volume levels and whilst still retaining all the finer details?
  • Or does the law of physics play the biggest part in a small room and changing components can only change the outcome marginally if any?

Much appreciate your thoughts.
Click to expand...
I have owned a number of pretty good speakers over the last 50 years or so, but for low volume clarity without losing any of the music's sparkle, nothing compares with the 3 pairs of Avantgarde horn speakers I've owned since 2002. Originally Unos, now Duo XDs. A well-match amp is essential too, but the most important choice is the speaker. Well-chosen, you shouldn't need to be looking for an amp that features non-essential processors such as Loudness filters or tone controls. AGs may be a bit big for your room, but there are other speakers that should offer exceptional sound at low volume. I have no experience with your current speakers, but as others have said, go easy with absorbent room treatment. Enough is enough, don't over do it!
 
In terms of room acoustics, the most important aspect for low level listening is to reduce the ambient noise level, especially if you live in an urban area.

For very low listening, you need a high resolution system - so everything matters in that respect. Speakers are critical, but the rest as well.
 
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Apologies for the late reply and Thank you all for taking time out to reply.
@Imperial,@Holmz, @mtemur, @Mike Lavigne, @PeterA, @Hear Here, @hopkins.@Imperial

To answer some of the unknown's raised and to give a brief description of the set up which may help.

I live in the countryside with the nearest house a couple hundred metres away.
It’s a 10 hour drive or a plane trip to any audio shops, so home demoing is not an option.

I haven’t seen a loudness switch on an amplifier in years. I did have one on an old Marantz in the 80’s.
I have never heard super tweeters but would be interested in listening to there effect next time I’m in a HiFi shop.

I don’t have a proper decibel meter but I did download an app which reads between 55 to 70 from the listening position, music piece dependent.
Front of speakers are 1 metre out from the wall, 1.8m apart and 2.8m to the seating position with the seat approx. half a metre behind to the wall.
Floors are timber on battens fixed to concrete with no rug on the floor.

The wall room treatments (R.T.F.S) have made a huge difference to the sound coherence and clarity. These are placed on the front and back walls with a small panel at the first speaker reflection point on the two sides.
Prior to this, the sound was muddled.
By adding/removing one isolation/diffuser piece at a time and readjusting positions down to very small increments, which took months in finding the right positions and balance.
It wasn’t straight forward and frustrating at times gaining a certain sound aspect and losing another.
I did find the volume level didn’t need to be as high after the room treatment.
I will have another tinker about and see what changes.
One thing that hasn’t changed prior to or after the room treatment, is my slight tinnitus being a little louder in this room compared to the bigger room with the TV.

I have been working on the fundamental basics of the system- Power, Isolation and cables feeds and they all have made a better difference, some more than others.
Mains power is dedicated 6mm (9 AWG) feeds with one to a Gigawatt PC3 SE power conditioner.
Cables are a mixture of Gigawatt, Final Touch Audio, Tellurium, Vermouth and Studio Connections.
Isolation racks are AG Lifter, with components on RevOpods and Stack Audio isolation feet.
The Buchardt Speakers have Stack Audio footers beneath them on SolidSteel SS filled stands with bamboo board capitals.

Is my thinking off track, with the Buchardt's not being a high efficiency speaker that require a bit more oomph to reveal the same details at lower sound levels, or the Kinki Studios amp not giving the Buchardt speakers enough push at lower levels especially in my small room?
 
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Yes.
Thank you for answering.

There Are now quite a few posters on WBF saying just what you describe.
That you need lower volume and the reason is hearing is hampered by tinnitus.
All these who say that have a single set of speakers
The room can be different but there is s common factor:
There seems to be that the speaker when playing lower than before now sound less involving.
You also describe one more thing that is interesting
That your treated room gave better sound and in addition you heard more of your tinnitus as a result. That gives insight into how loud it is just on a general level.
And treating the room actually help for playing at lower volume.

What is the distance to speakers or tv in the tv room?

So… another common factor that seems to be common is that the loudspeakers Are smallish.
Either bookshelf or narrow floor standers.
To say it differently:
Front baffel is only as large as it needs to be . Not a centimeter larger.

So thank you @NZS for being so informative in you answer.

Baffle size…
Have you ever listened to a loudspeaker sporting a rather large baffle size ?
Something like a Big Spendor or Harbeth or something?

The next time you visit a Hi-fi shop. Listen to that,
A barndoor size baffle Model.
Something with big woofer big midrange and big volume cabinet.
And the cabinet is not hyperdamped but sing along, musically…

Lower the volume in the demo (Try to sit at the same distance as you do at home..never mind the room for now - we are trying to see if yoiu can find something that sums good, as your home pair does, at a available distance in your setup), bit by bit Ask them IF They have a db meter. Note the volume IF so and when it got too low.
Do the same at Home …
Of the top of My head really…
This could be a factor for you to consider..,

Also. Lets assume you place a bigger loudspeaker close to the wall it raises the bass bounce and IF it has somewhat neutral to raised HF response now we have a loudness indused situation without using a Amp with a loudness function…
So, now there is the question of soundfield summing at listening distance.
You have about 4m 80 cm total room deep to play with IF I understand correctly..,
Read this reviewer of a Volti loudspeaker…

Look at how the writer ponders and thinks…


Volti Razz LE
 
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NZS said:
Apologies for the late reply and Thank you all for taking time out to reply.
@Imperial,@Holmz, @mtemur, @Mike Lavigne, @PeterA, @Hear Here, @hopkins.@Imperial

To answer some of the unknown's raised and to give a brief description of the set up which may help.

I live in the countryside with the nearest house a couple hundred metres away.
It’s a 10 hour drive or a plane trip to any audio shops, so home demoing is not an option.

I haven’t seen a loudness switch on an amplifier in years. I did have one on an old Marantz in the 80’s.
I have never heard super tweeters but would be interested in listening to there effect next time I’m in a HiFi shop.

I don’t have a proper decibel meter but I did download an app which reads between 55 to 70 from the listening position, music piece dependent.
Click to expand...

Those iPhone apps are good enough.
That 55-70dB sound about right.

NZS said:
Front of speakers are 1 metre out from the wall, 1.8m apart and 2.8m to the seating position with the seat approx. half a metre behind to the wall.
Floors are timber on battens fixed to concrete with no rug on the floor.
Click to expand...
Why no rug?

NZS said:
The wall room treatments (R.T.F.S) have made a huge difference to the sound coherence and clarity. These are placed on the front and back walls with a small panel at the first speaker reflection point on the two sides.
Prior to this, the sound was muddled.
By adding/removing one isolation/diffuser piece at a time and readjusting positions down to very small increments, which took months in finding the right positions and balance.
It wasn’t straight forward and frustrating at times gaining a certain sound aspect and losing another.
I did find the volume level didn’t need to be as high after the room treatment.
I will have another tinker about and see what changes.
One thing that hasn’t changed prior to or after the room treatment, is my slight tinnitus being a little louder in this room compared to the bigger room with the TV.

I have been working on the fundamental basics of the system- Power, Isolation and cables feeds and they all have made a better difference, some more than others.
Mains power is dedicated 6mm (9 AWG) feeds with one to a Gigawatt PC3 SE power conditioner.
Cables are a mixture of Gigawatt, Final Touch Audio, Tellurium, Vermouth and Studio Connections.
Isolation racks are AG Lifter, with components on RevOpods and Stack Audio isolation feet.
The Buchardt Speakers have Stack Audio footers beneath them on SolidSteel SS filled stands with bamboo board capitals.
Click to expand...
Burcharts should be fine.

NZS said:
Is my thinking off track, with the Buchardt's not being a high efficiency speaker that require a bit more oomph to reveal the same details at lower sound levels, or the Kinki Studios amp not giving the Buchardt speakers enough push at lower levels especially in my small room?
Click to expand...

^Yes^, you thinking on the physics is “off track”. For low level a 1W amplifier would be just fine.

Let’s talk about your music sources.
WHat are they? Streaming, analogue, CD, ???
Some might have an EQ ability in them… I see occasional talk on other fora about PEQ settings for a Fletcher-Munson Loudness.contour. Easy enough to try if you have EQ.
 
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Imperial said:
You also describe one more thing that is interesting
That your treated room gave better sound and in addition you heard more of your tinnitus as a result. That gives insight into how loud it is just on a general level.
And treating the room actually help for playing at lower volume.

What is the distance to speakers or tv in the tv room?
Click to expand...
Thanks Imperial for your advice.

At present my tinnitus is mild, but it didn’t increase or decrease in the small room before or after the treatments.
The lounge room is a much bigger room, at 40m2 plus with a large open hallway to the side.
The tinnitus is not noticeable in this room watching the TV, at approx. 4.5- 5m away from the seating position.

Is there such a thing as sound pressure or sound waves build up to the volume size of a room and if so, do these effects have a diminishing cycle?
 
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Holmz said:
Those iPhone apps are good enough.
That 55-70dB sound about right.


Why no rug?


Burcharts should be fine.



^Yes^, you thinking on the physics is “off track”. For low level a 1W amplifier would be just fine.

Let’s talk about your music sources.
WHat are they? Streaming, analogue, CD, ???
Some might have an EQ ability in them… I see occasional talk on other fora about PEQ settings for a Fletcher-Munson Loudness.contour. Easy enough to try if you have EQ.
Click to expand...
Thanks Holmz for your help.

No real reason about the rug other than I don’t have one. Will give it ago.

The Buchardt sound is very good.
Being a small room, a low watt amp should work well, but does the speaker equally need to be capable of delivering the lower watt output?

Streaming Qobuz through a Muon Pro to an Antipodes K50 and also SSD hard drive via squeeze to a Denafrips Terminator II.
Analogue is a Rega turntable.
 
NZS said:
Thanks Holmz for your help.

No real reason about the rug other than I don’t have one. Will give it ago.

The Buchardt sound is very good.
Being a small room, a low watt amp should work well, but does the speaker equally need to be capable of delivering the lower watt output?

Streaming Qobuz through a Muon Pro to an Antipodes K50 and also SSD hard drive via squeeze to a Denafrips Terminator II.
Analogue is a Rega turntable.
Click to expand...
You do have access to Equalizer settings it seems.
Do you use Roon by any chance?
The Muse pack has an equalizer.
In Squeezebox there is the SqueezeDSP plugin.
AntipodesK50. Don’t know much about it but some usually do, Antipodes forum and that.
 
NZS said:
Thanks Imperial for your advice.

At present my tinnitus is mild, but it didn’t increase or decrease in the small room before or after the treatments.
The lounge room is a much bigger room, at 40m2 plus with a large open hallway to the side.
The tinnitus is not noticeable in this room watching the TV, at approx. 4.5- 5m away from the seating position.

Is there such a thing as sound pressure or sound waves build up to the volume size of a room and if so, do these effects have a diminishing cycle?
Click to expand...
Yes... there is such a thing. (its called "nodes" - resonant ) Lets take the larger room...
Direct radiation versus room reverberation cues in a bigger room will hover at deeper frequencies (the bounce back)
So when you lower the volume there, you have a component of "echo" that has more energy in that region , reaching you, eventually...

In the smaller room you sit 2m 80 cm from the front plane of your Buchhards. They are a closed design, with a large rear radiator.
There you listen to more direct radiation, sort of the "beamed sound" if you will. 1 m away from the wall is ok. But sometimes one can try to sit up against the rear wall in the listening chair, usually this results in a deeper percieved bass power. or reach. (What this does, technically is alter reverberation timing of said «echo» and thusly percieved Energy in a frequency band, however narrow or wide)
I believe the 400 MK II goes down to 49hz, and then starts to taper off.
So if you try to put the speakers closer to the back wall, and sit against the wall behind you. Test, see what effect that may present.

Also see if this allows for even lower volume playback.
All this may change soundstage and all that.
But as I see it, it may be that that equalizing will get you a great distance in compensating, you do have a powerfull amp that can
drive the loudspeaker to use a curve that may be requirering sums of whatts to achieve.
Trying equalizing certainly is the cheapest method to try out. Some settings and software may be needed.
But that is more of a quick thing to do, at this point.

10 hour drive to hi-fi store… or plane trip.
Outback Australia or New zealand, thats what I read out of that. Am I close?
 
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NZS said:
…

The Buchardt sound is very good.
Being a small room, a low watt amp should work well, but does the speaker equally need to be capable of delivering the lower watt output?
Click to expand...

The speakers are not taking lower watts or higher watts in some steady state fashion.
There are no watts when the cables are disconnected, and no watts when the amp is off.
And no watts when the volume is turned all the way down.

The watts increase more and more proportional to the sound/volume.
And those speakers can deliver sound at low levels just fine.

NZS said:
Streaming Qobuz through a Muon Pro to an Antipodes K50 and also SSD hard drive via squeeze to a Denafrips Terminator II.
Analogue is a Rega turntable.
Click to expand...

Ignoring the Rega, do any of the pieces in the digital chain have EQ capability?
 
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