Best audiophile switch

NigelB · Jul 8, 2024

audiobomber said:
But that shield provides a connection between two ground points with different potentials, and will certainly result in current flowing from one to the other, something I have been advised to avoid. I believe you will hear an improvement if you add a LAN Isolator between the router and switch, to interrupt the continuity. A good one will also clean the signal from the router.

Thanks. The long run was installed ... well, when Cat 6 and 6a were the latest thing and I've learned a helluva lot about shielding and grounding since then.

For what it's worth though, the network cable connects 2 DC devices. I'll still have a poke around LAN isolators though; I never entirely trust either theory or practice so enjoy the interplay of the two.

The 2 DC powered devices are network switches. One is in what I usually call the Servant position, just after the router and this separates the audio playback chain from any potentially noisy (and non-audio-related) devices attached to the router. The other switch is at the business end of things: a Master switch which connects into my Innuos streamer.

NigelB · Jul 8, 2024

audiophilac1 said:
its complicated.. i'll try.

Internet:
optical network terminal (ONT) > ediscreation switch > FMC > router

Note: I prefer fibre optic over copper transceiver. hence the use of FMC

Internal network
Router > Mikrotik SFP switch > etherRegen > Streamer (Lumin u2 mini)

Note: Fibre optic is used from from Router to etherRegen

I'm probably getting a Zayin Stargate to eliminate the ediscreation and FMC.
I intend to upgrade the etherRegen too

Thanks for this, all clear.

You mentioned the possibility of getting a Tempus (you may have been joking!); I take it this would replace the EtherRegen. Is that correct?

To optimise your system further, I think if I were you I'd be looking at power supplies to your various components to ensure they are as low noise as is feasible and looking at using something like the Audioquest Noise-Stoppers to close off any unused ports on multi-port devices.

All the best,
Nigel

audiophilac1 · Jul 8, 2024

The loaner ediscreation switch, has a ground connect/floating latch.
I have a generic cat6 unshielded (with plastic connector, connected from the ONT to Switch) and the sablon ethernet 2020 (connected from switch to FMC)
The switch is upstream

I preferred the incoming and outgoing connection/port's ground floated.
The stereo image was affected when I switched the sablon port ground to connected. Like, veiled/denser vs airy/open (lol im stunned)

I found it weird that its grounding post, tightening its lugnut/screw affected the stereo image
Its not placebo.It was loose so I tightened.. The next day listened and wondered WTH went wrong with the stereo image.
I realized it was that, so I did an AB and confirmed my suspicion. I also tried it on my etherRegen but I don't want to dwell deeper lol.

@audiobomber any experience/thoughts on this?

audiophilac1 · Jul 8, 2024

NigelB said:
Thanks for this, all clear.

You mentioned the possibility of getting a Tempus (you may have been joking!); I take it this would replace the EtherRegen. Is that correct?

To optimise your system further, I think if I were you I'd be looking at power supplies to your various components to ensure they are as low noise as is feasible and looking at using something like the Audioquest Noise-Stoppers to close off any unused ports on multi-port devices.

All the best,
Nigel

Yes, no joke. Mainly because of the fibre-optic cable that I've run to that room.
I'm still using etherRegen with its stock psu, no clock etc. Sometimes from certain tracks, the etherRegen is my weak point.
I think might be better for me to change out than to tweak it.

Would you have suggestions?

I am considering the PS Audio Powerplant 12 for the networking side. Still deciding.

audiobomber · Jul 8, 2024

audiophilac1 said:
The loaner ediscreation switch, has a ground connect/floating latch.
I have a generic cat6 unshielded (with plastic connector, connected from the ONT to Switch) and the sablon ethernet 2020 (connected from switch to FMC)
The switch is upstream

I preferred the incoming and outgoing connection/port's ground floated.
The stereo image was affected when I switched the sablon port ground to connected. Like, veiled/denser vs airy/open (lol im stunned)

I found it weird that its grounding post, tightening its lugnut/screw affected the stereo image
Its not placebo.It was loose so I tightened.. The next day listened and wondered WTH went wrong with the stereo image.
I realized it was that, so I did an AB and confirmed my suspicion. I also tried it on my etherRegen but I don't want to dwell deeper lol.

@audiobomber any experience/thoughts on this?

I don't think this has anything to do with your ethernet cables. I tested a Sablon 2020 and it does not have shield-ground continuity. The EtherRegen ground post is only recommended if you use an ungrounded power supply. The ER stock SMPS, which I believe you use, has a three-prong AC cable and is therefore grounded, so you should not use the ER grounding post.

If the power supply for the EE switch is two-prong, that would explain your results. This is an interesting post from John Swenson the designer for Uptone and some Sonore products:

SMPS and grounding

Over the last month I have been performing extensive tests on leakage currents coming from SMPS power supplies. One of the most important results from this investigations is the makeup of this leakage current. Previously my understanding was that leakage current was mainly a low frequency phenoni...

audiophilestyle.com

audiophilac1 · Jul 8, 2024

I mean I think that unscrewing the screw/lugnut of the ground post, while not having anything connected to it made some kind of difference to image/sound.

yeah I read some stuff similar about the sablon - tho flipping the ground connection lever of the sablon port (still) made a difference.

audiobomber · Jul 8, 2024

audiophilac1 said:
I mean I think that unscrewing the screw/lugnut of the ground post, while not having anything connected to it made some kind of difference to image/sound.

IME, switches are subject to external vibrations. Maybe there is a mechanical resonance relating to the ground post. I use IsoAcoustics mini-pods under my ER.

audiophilac1 said:
yeah I read some stuff similar about the sablon - tho flipping the ground connection lever of the sablon port (still) made a difference.

The Sablon may be shield-tied at one end. I was not able to test that. The other question which you did not reply to was regarding the AC cable grounding of your switch.

audiophilac1 · Jul 8, 2024

I have earth connection here (3 pronged)
the ediscreation switch has a earth connection (3 pronged)
the fmc shares psu with the ONT, also 3 pronged

NigelB · Jul 8, 2024

audiophilac1 said:
Yes, no joke. Mainly because of the fibre-optic cable that I've run to that room.
I'm still using etherRegen with its stock psu, no clock etc. Sometimes from certain tracks, the etherRegen is my weak point.
I think might be better for me to change out than to tweak it.

Would you have suggestions?

I am considering the PS Audio Powerplant 12 for the networking side. Still deciding.

My main suggestion is perhaps an obvious one; that you audition in your own system anything you're considering paying good money for, rather than (or, let's be realistic, in addition to!) the reports of others whether these are fellow forum members or published reviewers.

I am not an ER owner so can't give any specific PSU recommendations but in my own experience the choice of PSU can make a substantial difference to the sonic performance to which a switch contributes; linear gets my vote by default though, as others may point out, there are good and bad implementations of PSU in both linear PSUs and SMPS.

The Powerplant is reportedly an excellent device but you wouldn't want to buy one of these and stick a load of SMPS into it... so I'd focus on the power supplies to individual units first (see previous paragraph for disclaimer).

Personally and professonally I'm a separator; separate optical-copper (FMC) units from copper-copper (switch) units, separate power supplies from sensitive header unit circuitry, separate the PSU of one device from another unless you're confident the internal design of the PSU does this.

Not sure this helps!

audiophilac1 · Jul 8, 2024

My dilemma is that running one equipment to do both fmc and reclocking vs two equipments. The latter is more expensive.

If i do get the edis switch, then i need to get an FMC and cables

NigelB · Jul 9, 2024

audiophilac1 said:
My dilemma is that running one equipment to do both fmc and reclocking vs two equipments. The latter is more expensive.

If i do get the edis switch, then i need to get an FMC and cables

There is of course no hard and fast rule relating price to performance but the market is the market so an over- (or under!) priced unit at any given performance level will become obvious once there are enough people who've actually heard the product in question. Multiple units don't have to add up to more expensive then, but higher performance may well do.

On the FMC front, I'd always pay more attention to the unit downstream of the optical link than upstream of it; the electrical-optical conversion process can be noisy but with the upstream unit you can be confident that any noise won't get transmitted over the optical cable (ground plane noise is a possibility of course); the downstream FMC unit is where any such noise can travel over the ethernet cable so you need the downstream FMC to be as quiet (and shielded) as possible. While you might get away with a stock/cheap FMC upstream, you'll want to carefully consider your options downstream if the good work of the optical connection isn't to be undone by the FMC. I default to single mode OS2 cable and the single mode Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL as this performs very well (quietly) at modest cost.

Optical cables (I mean the SFP-SFP ones here, not Toslink) are great value for money - low price, high performance and even the most ambitious hifi cable company would struggle to make the case for "high performance optical cable" as they all are high performance... it would be a very badly designed and badly engineered optical cable which corrupted data.

On ethernet cables, well yes you can spend a little or a lot!

audiophilac1 · Jul 9, 2024

Oh I missed out the part that you are a "separates person" gotcha on that.
I'm using ftlx1475d3btl and ftlx1475d3bnv transceivers
for information:
the ediscreation switch+ sonore opticalmodule deluxe would cost me about $3500 usd - not including the cost of two power cables and one ethernet cord
the zayin stargate alone would cost me $2499 usd - not including the cost of one power cord

NigelB · Jul 9, 2024

audiophilac1 said:
Oh I missed out the part that you are a "separates person" gotcha on that.
I'm using ftlx1475d3btl and ftlx1475d3bnv transceivers
for information:
the ediscreation switch+ sonore opticalmodule deluxe would cost me about $3500 usd - not including the cost of two power cables and one ethernet cord
the zayin stargate alone would cost me $2499 usd - not including the cost of one power cord

I am indeed! Partly for performance reasons (separation of power circuitry from signal circuitry) and partly because of the flexibility it gives to upgrade selectively rather than everything at once (in a multi-functional box). $6000+ is quite a budget.

I have no experience of those 2 SFPs: they're single mode which gets my vote technically but 10Gbps which my devices don't handle - and of course don't need to.

dbastin · Jul 10, 2024

NigelB said:
Hi @dbastin , for avoidance of doubt and all that. When you quoted me earlier, you used only the (now italicised) piece after the semi-colon so may have missed the context of the very specific use case (now in bold) to which I referred which is between a switch and a streamer. This is for the reasons stated, that a network cable with the shield grounded at both ends can effectively undo the good work of the switch in reducing RFI noise. Does this same use case apply to your response? Did you try the above between a switch and streamer or elsewhere in your network?

Sorry folks, this is getting off topic but felt I should reply.

I understood the context and my response relates to that context as much as other situations. Your observation might be correct when using regular cables (it probably depends on the devices at each end of the cable), however there are cables with sorts of noise absorption built in which might well deal with noise on the shield too (aside from issues related to different ground potential, noise could transmit from the devices on both ends - apparently noise is not directional). I have both Shunyata Sigma and JCAT Signature that connect shields at both ends and Synergistic Research which connects at only the upstream end and performs very well when that is connected to ground and moreso with better ground cables and ground block. All have different approaches to repel/absorb/re-route noise and how the shield behaves depends on those approaches.

NigelB said:
For what it's worth, for the 10m run from router to switch I use Cat6a (shielded grounded at both ends) and then from switch to streamer I use a cable with the shield(s) grounded at only the switch end.

Over that distance I'd say fibre will probably be superior.

dbastin · Jul 10, 2024

NigelB said:
The 2 DC powered devices are network switches. One is in what I usually call the Servant position, just after the router and this separates the audio playback chain from any potentially noisy (and non-audio-related) devices attached to the router. The other switch is at the business end of things: a Master switch which connects into my Innuos streamer

I'd say if you have anything wired inserted into the router it could (and IME does) affect SQ. For this reason I use a router with a few SFP ports and only the ONT is a wired connection to the router; there are 2 fibre connections, one to the HiFi 'leg' and the other to the switch for the rest of the household.

audiophilac1 said:
I'm still using etherRegen with its stock psu, no clock etc. Sometimes from certain tracks, the etherRegen is my weak point.

Set up well ER is very good. Mine has good LPS and power cable, sits on Synergistic Research Tranquility Pod Carbon, is grounded, filled with noise stopper caps and is connected by fibre on Side A and the shield of the cable from Side B is not connected to another other device ground.

NigelB said:
in my own experience the choice of PSU can make a substantial difference to the sonic performance to which a switch contributes

Agreed.

NigelB said:
On the FMC front, I'd always pay more attention to the unit downstream of the optical link than upstream of it; the electrical-optical conversion process can be noisy but with the upstream unit you can be confident that any noise won't get transmitted over the optical cable (ground plane noise is a possibility of course); the downstream FMC unit is where any such noise can travel over the ethernet cable so you need the downstream FMC to be as quiet (and shielded) as possible. While you might get away with a stock/cheap FMC upstream,

I have found improvements upstream of fibre can make a substantial difference. It seems noise affects each device and 'somehow' that affected the transmission.

Overall I'd suggest there are gains from:
- every device being delivered low noise power and being 'treated' for vibration and noise (eg. ground, noise absorption)
- where possible using 10G devices - they have lower noise/jitter
- where possible ideally using a device intended to good audio results

audiophilac1 · Jul 11, 2024

NigelB said:
I am indeed! Partly for performance reasons (separation of power circuitry from signal circuitry) and partly because of the flexibility it gives to upgrade selectively rather than everything at once (in a multi-functional box). $6000+ is quite a budget.

I don't intend to spend much, i think the lesser boxes, cables etc would be better.

I still intend have a long way to go with the front-end.

Big rabbit hole.

NigelB said:
I have no experience of those 2 SFPs: they're single mode which gets my vote technically but 10Gbps which my devices don't handle - and of course don't need to.

the 1475D3BNV is dual rate, other than that same spec as BTL (from the spec's sheet).

at my 1G FMC, I use 1475BTL and at the destination its 1475BNV. (there was the option to select 1G rate, else.. the options would be 10G only)

I did not notice an impact to my SQ.

kennyb123 · Jul 11, 2024

dbastin said:
I have found improvements upstream of fibre can make a substantial difference. It seems noise affects each device and 'somehow' that affected the transmission.

+1

OrigTweaker · Jul 11, 2024

audiophilac1 said:
I'm using ftlx1475d3btl

Me, too. These are connected by CommScope fiber in two cascaded Cisco Meraki switches which have been modified by AudioPhool NL.

I am so happy with the results that my much-loved EtherREGEN has moved upstream, between a Ubiquiti router and the Merakis.

Best audiophile switch

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