I am going to build a highly modded NUC - I need recommendations and have some questions

Xymox

Xymox

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I have been asked by a bunch of people to try modding a NUC like crazy to adapt it to audio use. Apply everything I know from building the AppleTV X and Switch X.

I have handy a number of music servers and a lot of experience doing super high end setups. Taiko is my current reference. I have some very high end systems I can use in development of this modded NUC.

SO... I don't know NUCs for audio use. There are so many and I need to pick a unit to base my work on. I also have some general ideas and design topology I want to go towards.

Size matters. In this case, smaller is better. The reason is technical. The longer each trace is on a PCB the more it acts like a antenna both transmitting and receiving noise. Nice short well managed traces with a good backplane. This will lead to less noise on the traces and on the buss signals between chips. All the chips close together also makes for better power supply delivery and management. Long power supply traces induce issues. Of course too small and things can bleed into each other. But one thing for sure, I do not want a big PC style Mother Board.

That said.. I do need some room inside. I would like to land some biggerish caps. So I need some open space.

I would like to be able to run off 12V, better yet 14v. The 19V thing is kinda annoyingly high. I will use a 4 pin noise canceling r-core based linear.

I don't want hardware I dont need. I dont need any kind of serious graphic chip. Well. Unless I also want to make it more of a universal box that could also do video streaming like a AppleTV.

I need a good USB for use with a external DAC.

I DO NOT need a lot of CPU power. More power = more noise. Its physics. So a lower power CPU that will run roon or various other UPnP applications would be good. Again, I don't need much in GPU power, just CPU power.

I will need a LOT of SSD. RAID 1.

I dont think I will need a lot of RAM ?

I would like a SFP+ port. It needs to be 10Gbps ready.

For a OS I think I prefer Linux, my fav is FreeBSD but that is not practical. I suppose the NUC should also be capable of Windows. But Windows just has too much going on and so I would rather use a *nix based solution. My goals are very low processing jitter, buss jitter and ram/SSD jitter. *Nix is a better way to go then windows because windows has so much chatter thru the CPU.

So my thoughts are that you guys could help suggest some hardware. You have a LOT more experience then I I will then go thru a R&D process and some of you could be beta testers. We could develop a product that should be pretty killer and also not break the bank. My direct A/B during R&D will be a Taiko.

There are just so many NUCs its hard to know which and you guys might have some great suggestions.
 
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Your question is beyond my technical competence, but have you watched Gabster's Roon ROCK NUC build on YouTube? It's not really what you're asking about, but I built one exactly as he detailed, and it's certainly better than the Windows-based mini pc I was using for Roon before.
Good luck...I'll be eagerly watching for updates from you!
 
Xymox said:
I have been asked by a bunch of people to try modding a NUC like crazy to adapt it to audio use. Apply everything I know from building the AppleTV X and Switch X.

I have handy a number of music servers and a lot of experience doing super high end setups. Taiko is my current reference. I have some very high end systems I can use in development of this modded NUC.

SO... I don't know NUCs for audio use. There are so many and I need to pick a unit to base my work on. I also have some general ideas and design topology I want to go towards.

Size matters. In this case, smaller is better. The reason is technical. The longer each trace is on a PCB the more it acts like a antenna both transmitting and receiving noise. Nice short well managed traces with a good backplane. This will lead to less noise on the traces and on the buss signals between chips. All the chips close together also makes for better power supply delivery and management. Long power supply traces induce issues. Of course too small and things can bleed into each other. But one thing for sure, I do not want a big PC style Mother Board.

That said.. I do need some room inside. I would like to land some biggerish caps. So I need some open space.

I would like to be able to run off 12V, better yet 14v. The 19V thing is kinda annoyingly high. I will use a 4 pin noise canceling r-core based linear.

I don't want hardware I dont need. I dont need any kind of serious graphic chip. Well. Unless I also want to make it more of a universal box that could also do video streaming like a AppleTV.

I need a good USB for use with a external DAC.

I DO NOT need a lot of CPU power. More power = more noise. Its physics. So a lower power CPU that will run roon or various other UPnP applications would be good. Again, I don't need much in GPU power, just CPU power.

I will need a LOT of SSD. RAID 1.

I dont think I will need a lot of RAM ?

I would like a SFP+ port. It needs to be 10Gbps ready.

For a OS I think I prefer Linux, my fav is FreeBSD but that is not practical. I suppose the NUC should also be capable of Windows. But Windows just has too much going on and so I would rather use a *nix based solution. My goals are very low processing jitter, buss jitter and ram/SSD jitter. *Nix is a better way to go then windows because windows has so much chatter thru the CPU.

So my thoughts are that you guys could help suggest some hardware. You have a LOT more experience then I I will then go thru a R&D process and some of you could be beta testers. We could develop a product that should be pretty killer and also not break the bank. My direct A/B during R&D will be a Taiko.

There are just so many NUCs its hard to know which and you guys might have some great suggestions.
Click to expand...

Three comments...

Somebody who should know told me that Intel is getting out of the NUC business. That might affect your thinking.

I am using Daphile here in an actual Intel NUC as the entire operating system and audio application. It's the best I've used, with regard to performance. I put 32 Gb of memory into the NUC so that I could load all the songs I want to play at one sitting into memory and play from there. That obviously gets around the SSD jitter problem and some of the bus jitter.

I think most of the NUCs will operate with supply voltages below 19VDC. Obviously, the current draw scales accordingly. I'd bet the internal switching supplies are more efficient at the higher voltage, I2R and all that.
 
Xymox said:
I have been asked by a bunch of people to try modding a NUC like crazy to adapt it to audio use. Apply everything I know from building the AppleTV X and Switch X.

I have handy a number of music servers and a lot of experience doing super high end setups. Taiko is my current reference. I have some very high end systems I can use in development of this modded NUC.

SO... I don't know NUCs for audio use. There are so many and I need to pick a unit to base my work on. I also have some general ideas and design topology I want to go towards.

Size matters. In this case, smaller is better. The reason is technical. The longer each trace is on a PCB the more it acts like a antenna both transmitting and receiving noise. Nice short well managed traces with a good backplane. This will lead to less noise on the traces and on the buss signals between chips. All the chips close together also makes for better power supply delivery and management. Long power supply traces induce issues. Of course too small and things can bleed into each other. But one thing for sure, I do not want a big PC style Mother Board.

That said.. I do need some room inside. I would like to land some biggerish caps. So I need some open space.

I would like to be able to run off 12V, better yet 14v. The 19V thing is kinda annoyingly high. I will use a 4 pin noise canceling r-core based linear.

I don't want hardware I dont need. I dont need any kind of serious graphic chip. Well. Unless I also want to make it more of a universal box that could also do video streaming like a AppleTV.

I need a good USB for use with a external DAC.

I DO NOT need a lot of CPU power. More power = more noise. Its physics. So a lower power CPU that will run roon or various other UPnP applications would be good. Again, I don't need much in GPU power, just CPU power.

I will need a LOT of SSD. RAID 1.

I dont think I will need a lot of RAM ?

I would like a SFP+ port. It needs to be 10Gbps ready.

For a OS I think I prefer Linux, my fav is FreeBSD but that is not practical. I suppose the NUC should also be capable of Windows. But Windows just has too much going on and so I would rather use a *nix based solution. My goals are very low processing jitter, buss jitter and ram/SSD jitter. *Nix is a better way to go then windows because windows has so much chatter thru the CPU.

So my thoughts are that you guys could help suggest some hardware. You have a LOT more experience then I I will then go thru a R&D process and some of you could be beta testers. We could develop a product that should be pretty killer and also not break the bank. My direct A/B during R&D will be a Taiko.

There are just so many NUCs its hard to know which and you guys might have some great suggestions.
Click to expand...

You should go over to audiophilestyle.com and read the threads there. Many threads on bullding NUCs.

On a side note, people have found that higher powered CPUs sound better than low powered CPUs. It may sound counterintuitive to your thinking but that’s been pretty well estabilished.
 
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I have a Roon Rock NUC in a silent Akasa case. It is good. I will say I've tried Windows based for Roon, and the Roon Rock linux setup and the Rock/linux was clearly better sonically. A incredibly simplified OS compare to the bloat of Windows, even the stripped down Windows some are using has dozens more processes running than a stripped down Linux build.
 
This just dropped! New Roon Titan Server. All the aesthetics, none of the sound! The thing to beat :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

roon-nucleus-titan-678x509.jpg
 
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Xymox said:
I have been asked by a bunch of people to try modding a NUC like crazy to adapt it to audio use. Apply everything I know from building the AppleTV X and Switch X.

I have handy a number of music servers and a lot of experience doing super high end setups. Taiko is my current reference. I have some very high end systems I can use in development of this modded NUC.

SO... I don't know NUCs for audio use. There are so many and I need to pick a unit to base my work on. I also have some general ideas and design topology I want to go towards.

Size matters. In this case, smaller is better. The reason is technical. The longer each trace is on a PCB the more it acts like a antenna both transmitting and receiving noise. Nice short well managed traces with a good backplane. This will lead to less noise on the traces and on the buss signals between chips. All the chips close together also makes for better power supply delivery and management. Long power supply traces induce issues. Of course too small and things can bleed into each other. But one thing for sure, I do not want a big PC style Mother Board.

That said.. I do need some room inside. I would like to land some biggerish caps. So I need some open space.

I would like to be able to run off 12V, better yet 14v. The 19V thing is kinda annoyingly high. I will use a 4 pin noise canceling r-core based linear.

I don't want hardware I dont need. I dont need any kind of serious graphic chip. Well. Unless I also want to make it more of a universal box that could also do video streaming like a AppleTV.

I need a good USB for use with a external DAC.

I DO NOT need a lot of CPU power. More power = more noise. Its physics. So a lower power CPU that will run roon or various other UPnP applications would be good. Again, I don't need much in GPU power, just CPU power.

I will need a LOT of SSD. RAID 1.

I dont think I will need a lot of RAM ?

I would like a SFP+ port. It needs to be 10Gbps ready.

For a OS I think I prefer Linux, my fav is FreeBSD but that is not practical. I suppose the NUC should also be capable of Windows. But Windows just has too much going on and so I would rather use a *nix based solution. My goals are very low processing jitter, buss jitter and ram/SSD jitter. *Nix is a better way to go then windows because windows has so much chatter thru the CPU.

So my thoughts are that you guys could help suggest some hardware. You have a LOT more experience then I I will then go thru a R&D process and some of you could be beta testers. We could develop a product that should be pretty killer and also not break the bank. My direct A/B during R&D will be a Taiko.

There are just so many NUCs its hard to know which and you guys might have some great suggestions.
Click to expand...
Hi, Xymox. Any progress? Thanks!
 
Zuman said:
Hi, Xymox. Any progress? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm............

This is a really hard subject.. There are so many boards and complete devices. Plus its confuzing if I want to just do roon Rock or a full hand crafted install. I personally am partial to FreeBSD rather then Linux. But that is for other things.

Just deciding on what i need for power is hard. What CPU will sound best for example. There are big classes of this subject.

The more power used by a CPU the more noise you end up with on the supply. Its more difficult to tamp down and seriously regulate.

There are so many questions.

Without doubt I need to look at the boards. How do they handle voltage regulation. Where are the PWM regulators VS the traces for data signals. The board layout SERIOUSLY matters because noise gets induced by proximity.

While generally a faster CPU makes sense as you would end up with less jitter. Yes thats complex. But I know this is true from dealing with other things.

I dont want all the extra BS on these NUC boards. I dont need 2 Ethernet ports. I dont need 4K dual DP. I dont need 6 USBs. I dont need all that **** sitting on power rails and taking up board space. It needs to be super clean with JUST what i need for a UPnP / Roon core box.

I have a lot of people wanting me to make one of these. They could be right. The way i dejitter the ENTIRE platform is beyond what anyone else is doing and it might end up being crazy good. So I need to take this seriously.

I will go look thru audiophilestyle.com
 
Tuckers said:
This just dropped! New Roon Titan Server. All the aesthetics, none of the sound! The thing to beat :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

roon-nucleus-titan-678x509.jpg
Click to expand...

Hmmmm...

I dont see what they do electronically ? I see its a 19V input, so, that kinda implies its someones NUC board. It has a fancy case.

They dont discuss any electronic aspects at all. So, it would seem this would be easy to best, as I would go at the CPU regulators and all the subsystems with a spectrum analyzer and rework things so the whole platform is vastly lower noise for power rails at the chip which leads to far cleaner digital bus lines and lower jitter on everything..

I dont think I want to make a roon server that feeds a zillion outputs with DSP processed feeds. I want to feed a single rendering DAC and i dont want to alter the bitsream with DSP..

Hmmmmmm..... Yes more stuff to ponder..

You know... I am not a big fan of Roon RAAT.. Some of the very best playback I have heard came from a UPnP based system. So I also want to make a NUC that can be setup for either.
 
Intel NUCs normally operate until 11.8V. You can supply power with a normal 12V power supply, which will in the US be closer to 14V than to 12V. Under 11.8V, power good will drop, causing a reboot.
 
Solartiger said:
Intel NUCs normally operate until 11.8V. You can supply power with a normal 12V power supply, which will in the US be closer to 14V than to 12V. Under 11.8V, power good will drop, causing a reboot.
Click to expand...

Makes sense at the Switch mode regulators would have a wide range input. In fact running towards the lower end would produce a higher % on time in the PWM regulators which would produce a better coupling from input to output on the regulator, but, a lower freq set of harmonics for noise...

Hmm... Good point tho..

14V is a good target. BUT I think I might need more then 2A of juice, so, I might need to make a new sensing r-core linear anyway. If so I will need to decide on a good voltage point. A NUC with its PWM regulators will also operate higher the 19V too. So I would need to pick a voltage that is really specific to the exact NUC to get the lowest impedance and lowest noise at the chip input pins.

This brings up good thoughts tho for sure.
 
Every NUC can operate on 12-19V DC. Both Intel and Roon supplies them with 19V PSU (which is cheaper than 12V on BTW) which makes people assume 19VDC PSU is needed.

This is NOT the case. If you download the NUC spec from the Intel's website, the spec sheet clearly states: input voltage 12-19VDC.

I have been running my Nuclus clone on 12VDC for many years without any problems.

If you don't need all the power of the i7, 11-gen i3 is just about perfect. 11-gen is the latest board certified by Roon.

Every NUC has same dimensions - it is 10x10cm

I don't belive you can run RAID on a NUC - it only has a single M.2 SSD port and a single SATA port. Not sure about 13th gen ... but those are a mess with 6-12 cores, much higer curret draw and heat dissapation.
 
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I think the I2R losses in the power supply probably lean toward using a higher voltage. That gives higher efficiency for the system. That matters a lot for businesses with lots of computers and for laptops.

That isn't necessarily the best solution for minimum generated and conducted noise, which is what we normally care about. For us, a lower voltage also gives us a the chance to use better linear regulators (like multiple LT3045s or LT3041s) instead of the what's usually found in "linear" supplies.
 
Have build many musicservers. What always works realy well is undervolt and underclock your cpu and memory in the mb bios. This reduce noise. You have to finetune that. To much makes it sound lean or makes your system unstable. So buy the fastest cpu with a low tpd, underclock your system and your good.
 
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Billgates307 said:
Have build many musicservers. What always works realy well is undervolt and underclock your cpu and memory in the mb bios. This reduce noise. You have to finetune that. To much makes it sound lean or makes your system unstable. So buy the fastest cpu with a low tpd, underclock your system and your good.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your suggestions. Really.

It would seem to be better to eliminate the noise through better electronics, but that may not be practical or even possible.
 
BKDad said:
I appreciate your suggestions. Really.

It would seem to be better to eliminate the noise through better electronics, but that may not be practical or even possible.
Click to expand...
I would recommend the Intel® Core i5-13600K, 3,5 GHz proc. And maybe you could contact someone at cirrus7 to put in industrial wide temp. memory. Industrial memory sounds a lot better. And ask if bios ajustments can be enabled.
Apacer memory
 
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