20.7 Pairing with Rogue Audio
- Thread starter WLP3
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I've never heard the Rogues: rest assured that they will sound just fine. But, I'd bet a million dollars that a double-blind listening with 20.7s (or any good speaker) will reveal that ANY good amplifier will sound just fine and I dare say that (although PERHAPS different sounding), most people couldn't tell which amp was which driving them. If you have money to burn (I am reasonably affluent but would NEVER have "money to burn"), then nobody is stopping you. (Hell: if someone wanted to buy $50,000 speaker cables, I'm sure there's a vendor out there that will charge that.) But the Parasound A21+ is 1/5th the price (and every bit as good)... Food for thought. By the way, in my recent audition of 20.7s, they were driven by D'Agostino M400s (the dealer can hook up whatever they want...) and these $80,000 (each!) monoblocks do not outperform what I ended up buying: the Parasound.
Curious how do you say I never heard them, but you think another amp will sound just as good?
@WLP3 I‘ve heard the Apollo Dark monoblocks and they will work extremely well with the 20.7’s. How big is your listening room?
I say this because I HAVE heard about a zillion amplifiers - just not THAT particular one. Hell (heck?): I've owned several over my lifetime: Mark Levinson, Krell, MacIntosh, NAD, Phase Linear (way before your time) and I have listened to many, many more - and NONE of them sounded "significantly" better that any of the others - or my late-father's Williamson amp that he built himself.
Sometime when you're bored, read the Bob Carver story where he "copied" a Conrad-Johnson Premier Five amplifier and challenged Stereophile magazine to tell his cheap amplifier apart from the zillion-dollar one (they couldn't...)
Sometime when you're bored, read the Bob Carver story where he "copied" a Conrad-Johnson Premier Five amplifier and challenged Stereophile magazine to tell his cheap amplifier apart from the zillion-dollar one (they couldn't...)
I would argue that not all amplifiers are the same and that I 100% disagree with that notion. LAMM, Nagra, VTL, VAC, Ayre, Constellations D’AGOSTINO all make great sounding amps that cannot and should not be lumped in with average amps. We can debate price all day long but sound and build quality absolutely no debate. I know what sounds good is subjective but to say they sound the same or very little difference is just not true. I’ve also had my number of amplifiers and just can’t accept your statement to be remotely true. But this is what this hobby is all about. I wish you lived close to me so that we could do a real A/B test. I’m certain it would change your opinion.
A couple of things about opinions: 1) You are every bit as entitled to yours as I am to mine; 2) Opinions should not be confused with facts.
The FACT is that electrons don't care what the label on the amplifier says when they are coursing their ways through the ICs, transistors and/or tubes. If you re-read my thread, you'll see that I mentioned that when I auditioned the 20.7s, they were driven by a $160,000 (pair) of D'Agonstino's (one of the "holy grail" amps you mentioned). Guess what? They failed to blow me away... (or anyone else in the room listening with me.)
If you can afford a $10,000 or $25,000 or even a $200,000 amplifier, it is certainly YOUR prerogative to buy it. That's why free markets work. But please realize this: if someone made a $2 Million amplifier, there are people that would buy it BECAUSE it's $2M and, therefore, must be "really good". (These same people would spend $50,000 on a kryptonite - plated set of RCA cables...)
Bottom line: buy whatever you want - believe me when I tell you that I will not be offended no matter what you buy. But, unless you (or anyone else reading this thread) are uber-rich, it might behoove you to do so double-blind listening tests. Sonically, there is a BIG difference between a $300 amp and a $3,000 amp. But, between a $3,000 amp and a $30,000 amp (or a $3Million amp) - I dare ANYONE to tell the difference with the blindfold on...
This is why I mentioned the Bob Carver story - he got fed up with these audiophile "guru's" at Stereophile magazine stating that these hugely-expensive amps were worth it and he PROVED them wrong (with THEIR OWN EARS and with electronic measurements)
No matter what you decide, I hope you enjoy your system.
The FACT is that electrons don't care what the label on the amplifier says when they are coursing their ways through the ICs, transistors and/or tubes. If you re-read my thread, you'll see that I mentioned that when I auditioned the 20.7s, they were driven by a $160,000 (pair) of D'Agonstino's (one of the "holy grail" amps you mentioned). Guess what? They failed to blow me away... (or anyone else in the room listening with me.)
If you can afford a $10,000 or $25,000 or even a $200,000 amplifier, it is certainly YOUR prerogative to buy it. That's why free markets work. But please realize this: if someone made a $2 Million amplifier, there are people that would buy it BECAUSE it's $2M and, therefore, must be "really good". (These same people would spend $50,000 on a kryptonite - plated set of RCA cables...)
Bottom line: buy whatever you want - believe me when I tell you that I will not be offended no matter what you buy. But, unless you (or anyone else reading this thread) are uber-rich, it might behoove you to do so double-blind listening tests. Sonically, there is a BIG difference between a $300 amp and a $3,000 amp. But, between a $3,000 amp and a $30,000 amp (or a $3Million amp) - I dare ANYONE to tell the difference with the blindfold on...
This is why I mentioned the Bob Carver story - he got fed up with these audiophile "guru's" at Stereophile magazine stating that these hugely-expensive amps were worth it and he PROVED them wrong (with THEIR OWN EARS and with electronic measurements)
No matter what you decide, I hope you enjoy your system.
Again not arguing I just disagree. I find a lot of the lower tier amps fail to get me closer to that real life sound. Example a cello don’t sound like a real life cello on lesser components compared to some others. They play loud, but don’t provide the musical nuance of the very best amplifiers. Also we can both agree that room and setup matters. Our ears have to get acquainted to the accuracy of really high end gear. It’s like all cars will get you to where you need to go and all makes and models will do just that. But theres a huge difference between a Mustang and a Lamborghini.
Agreed.
Want to hear a funny story?
When I first got Maggies, about a year ago, they were 1.7i's. Not having a dedicated audio system in the living room (the "dedicated" audio system is in the basement - and I wanted the Maggies in the living room), I placed them on the floor and drove them with my Denon 100wpc surround-sound receiver, operating on 2 channel, with a CD (plain old 16-bit CD) as the source. Sacrilege!!! Sounded like crap, right? NOPE - it sounded pretty damn good, actually - and EVERY visitor agreed! (But, after 15 minutes of listening you could fry an egg of the receiver...)
When I upgraded to 3.7i's a few months later, I knew I had to get a "real" amp and some better source material (and "stealing" equipment from my basement system was only a temporary solution - besides, my main amplifiers down there ((2: 1980's vintage NAD 2140's, bridged) are only 125wpc (which will drive my Klipsch LaScalas to head-splitting volume) but Maggies are power-hungry.)) The NAD's DID sound sweet with the 1.7's, however...
That was when I auditioned some amplifiers at my HiFi dealer. Since they had 20.7s (and no 3.7's), I used them to evaluate the amps. The D'Agostino's were already connected to them, so what the hell: I'll give them a listen. But, to be honest, I would NOT have bought them even if they DID blow me away - not for Lamborghini money. The Pass Labs 600W monoblocks they had on-hand sounded better than the D'Ag's (but so close I would not have bet money on a blindfolded listening challenge) AND they were $130,000 LESS! Still, $30K amps to drive $7K speakers just didn't seem right...
Fortunately, the salesman stopped seeing dollar signs when I didn't jump at the chance to buy either of those and he recommended the Parasound (it turns out that Magnepan itself often uses Parasound JC-1's when doing their road tours demoing new models). He (the salesman) hooked up a JC5 ($6000). After about 2 songs, I told him "sold".
But, there was a 8-10 week waiting list on the JC5. So, they loaned me an A21+. That was a mistake, because I called them from home after several hours of listening and told them I was buying it ($3000), instead.
Want to hear a funny story?
When I first got Maggies, about a year ago, they were 1.7i's. Not having a dedicated audio system in the living room (the "dedicated" audio system is in the basement - and I wanted the Maggies in the living room), I placed them on the floor and drove them with my Denon 100wpc surround-sound receiver, operating on 2 channel, with a CD (plain old 16-bit CD) as the source. Sacrilege!!! Sounded like crap, right? NOPE - it sounded pretty damn good, actually - and EVERY visitor agreed! (But, after 15 minutes of listening you could fry an egg of the receiver...)
When I upgraded to 3.7i's a few months later, I knew I had to get a "real" amp and some better source material (and "stealing" equipment from my basement system was only a temporary solution - besides, my main amplifiers down there ((2: 1980's vintage NAD 2140's, bridged) are only 125wpc (which will drive my Klipsch LaScalas to head-splitting volume) but Maggies are power-hungry.)) The NAD's DID sound sweet with the 1.7's, however...
That was when I auditioned some amplifiers at my HiFi dealer. Since they had 20.7s (and no 3.7's), I used them to evaluate the amps. The D'Agostino's were already connected to them, so what the hell: I'll give them a listen. But, to be honest, I would NOT have bought them even if they DID blow me away - not for Lamborghini money. The Pass Labs 600W monoblocks they had on-hand sounded better than the D'Ag's (but so close I would not have bet money on a blindfolded listening challenge) AND they were $130,000 LESS! Still, $30K amps to drive $7K speakers just didn't seem right...
Fortunately, the salesman stopped seeing dollar signs when I didn't jump at the chance to buy either of those and he recommended the Parasound (it turns out that Magnepan itself often uses Parasound JC-1's when doing their road tours demoing new models). He (the salesman) hooked up a JC5 ($6000). After about 2 songs, I told him "sold".
But, there was a 8-10 week waiting list on the JC5. So, they loaned me an A21+. That was a mistake, because I called them from home after several hours of listening and told them I was buying it ($3000), instead.
Hey that’s how it happens sometime. I’m glad you’re happy with the sound. I always say life is better with music. Yeah similar story I went to a Music Matters event a few years ago and they had the big Wilson and Naim’s Statement components on demo. It sound great but to my ears the Magnepan 30.7 D’AGOSTINO combo sounded better to me. More musical compared to the more detailed in your face presentation the Wilson combo had. IMO! It’s about preference. I’m not a solid state guy, my ears prefer the sounds of tubes but the D’Agostino Momentum combo were musically satisfying.
Isn't it great that WE get to choose what we like?
I'm curious as to whether or not you'll read the Bob Carver challenge I referenced - just for curiousity's sake. I've actually owned a couple of his products over the years: the M1.5T amp, the Sonic Hologram Pre-amp, the Astonishing True Sub. Most "audiophiles" wouldn't consider ANY of those "high-end" - but with ADS L1230's driven by an M1.5 T, the Sonic Hologram would blow your mind! (Too bad that if you moved 1/4", the effect was diminished...)
A trip down memory lane shows that my sound systems were - uh - diverse, to be sure. I've had B&W 801s driven my Mark Levinsons with a Krell CD transport (and a Nakamishi 1000ZXL CASSETTE player). I've had Electro-Voice Interface
's (which replaced Altec Model 19s) and SAE A 201 amplifier. I've had DQ10's (amazing sound from crappy drivers). I've had IRS 4.5's.
My current system is the best sounding (at least that I can remember) - but I still go down to the basement when "System of A Down" is on my plate, rather than jazz, light rock or a symphony (on the latter: the SVS sub does GREAT with organ music.) Very few speakers thump your chest like the LaScalas... And, yes, my 40-year old NAD 2140's still work perfectly: I bought them in 1981 or 82 -- before they went mainstream and became garbage.
Enjoy your life, your music and your system...
I'm curious as to whether or not you'll read the Bob Carver challenge I referenced - just for curiousity's sake. I've actually owned a couple of his products over the years: the M1.5T amp, the Sonic Hologram Pre-amp, the Astonishing True Sub. Most "audiophiles" wouldn't consider ANY of those "high-end" - but with ADS L1230's driven by an M1.5 T, the Sonic Hologram would blow your mind! (Too bad that if you moved 1/4", the effect was diminished...)
A trip down memory lane shows that my sound systems were - uh - diverse, to be sure. I've had B&W 801s driven my Mark Levinsons with a Krell CD transport (and a Nakamishi 1000ZXL CASSETTE player). I've had Electro-Voice Interface
's (which replaced Altec Model 19s) and SAE A 201 amplifier. I've had DQ10's (amazing sound from crappy drivers). I've had IRS 4.5's.My current system is the best sounding (at least that I can remember) - but I still go down to the basement when "System of A Down" is on my plate, rather than jazz, light rock or a symphony (on the latter: the SVS sub does GREAT with organ music.) Very few speakers thump your chest like the LaScalas... And, yes, my 40-year old NAD 2140's still work perfectly: I bought them in 1981 or 82 -- before they went mainstream and became garbage.
Enjoy your life, your music and your system...
I actually read it and have been a fan of his for sometime. It was his products that got me into 2 channel audio.Isn't it great that WE get to choose what we like?
I'm curious as to whether or not you'll read the Bob Carver challenge I referenced - just for curiousity's sake. I've actually owned a couple of his products over the years: the M1.5T amp, the Sonic Hologram Pre-amp, the Astonishing True Sub. Most "audiophiles" wouldn't consider ANY of those "high-end" - but with ADS L1230's driven by an M1.5 T, the Sonic Hologram would blow your mind! (Too bad that if you moved 1/4", the effect was diminished...)
A trip down memory lane shows that my sound systems were - uh - diverse, to be sure. I've had B&W 801s driven my Mark Levinsons with a Krell CD transport (and a Nakamishi 1000ZXL CASSETTE player). I've had Electro-Voice Interface
My current system is the best sounding (at least that I can remember) - but I still go down to the basement when "System of A Down" is on my plate, rather than jazz, light rock or a symphony (on the latter: the SVS sub does GREAT with organ music.) Very few speakers thump your chest like the LaScalas... And, yes, my 40-year old NAD 2140's still work perfectly: I bought them in 1981 or 82 -- before they went mainstream and became garbage.
Enjoy your life, your music and your system...
I recently (as in: today) sent you a "Merry Christmas" to which you responded in-same (thank you!), but I've since been re-reading some old threads because I'm bored (it's about 12 degrees out so riding the motorcycle is not in the cards..) and thought I'd continue our thread...
A follow-up story to the previous posts is that I recently found a Carver C-9 (Sonic Hologram Generator, henceforth: SHG) and bought it. VERY interesting how well (and not-so-well) it works with my 3.7i's.
MANY moons ago (when I had the ADS L1230s and the SHG), I was blown away at the imaging with the SHG: not only were the violins on one side and cellos on the other (like any decent stereo effect), but you could differentiate 1st chair from 2nd chair, and so on. Also, applause (or a cough) from the recorded audience at the performance appeared to come from BEHIND me (this, with only 2 channels)
I had already concluded (and this experiment confirmed) that the Maggies present a compelling and realistic sound-stage, but not very precise pin-point imaging, like the Wilson's (or the Vandersteens or 801's or, or, or...)
With the Maggie / SHG working together, some recordings absolutely blew me away (Michael Jackson's PYT or Queen's Another One Bites the Dust or just about ANY Supertramp), but a symphony (or any larger group of instruments) tended to become LESS detailed in terms of instrument placement, rather than MORE with the SHG on! I'm guessing that this is because the Maggies are NOT true "line source" but are, in fact, a couple of feet wide. Guess what? There's NO SUCH THING as a "perfect" speaker.
I had to console myself with about an hour of Metallica on the LaScalas...
A follow-up story to the previous posts is that I recently found a Carver C-9 (Sonic Hologram Generator, henceforth: SHG) and bought it. VERY interesting how well (and not-so-well) it works with my 3.7i's.
MANY moons ago (when I had the ADS L1230s and the SHG), I was blown away at the imaging with the SHG: not only were the violins on one side and cellos on the other (like any decent stereo effect), but you could differentiate 1st chair from 2nd chair, and so on. Also, applause (or a cough) from the recorded audience at the performance appeared to come from BEHIND me (this, with only 2 channels)
I had already concluded (and this experiment confirmed) that the Maggies present a compelling and realistic sound-stage, but not very precise pin-point imaging, like the Wilson's (or the Vandersteens or 801's or, or, or...)
With the Maggie / SHG working together, some recordings absolutely blew me away (Michael Jackson's PYT or Queen's Another One Bites the Dust or just about ANY Supertramp), but a symphony (or any larger group of instruments) tended to become LESS detailed in terms of instrument placement, rather than MORE with the SHG on! I'm guessing that this is because the Maggies are NOT true "line source" but are, in fact, a couple of feet wide. Guess what? There's NO SUCH THING as a "perfect" speaker.
I had to console myself with about an hour of Metallica on the LaScalas...
To get pin-point imaging from Maggies, or any dipole, you have to damp the back wave IME. Much better imaging, and no comb-filter effects, but you lose some of the "spaciousness" in their sound.
I have often wondered what they would sound like with NO back wave, i.e.: infinite baffle. It wouldn't be too hard if you have another room BEHIND your listening room - just mount them in the wall (this would create another listening room behind them, albeit 180 out-of phase). This would, obviously, be easier still if done when doing new constuction.
Oh I wish I had unlimited time and an unlimited budget: the experiments would be entertainment until themselves. In the end, we must talk the proverbial "bottom line": I love the way my system(s) sound - the "good" one and the "loud" one. I just couldn't pass up the chance to play with a long forgotten toy* (the Carver C9). *Rush 2112's theme!
Not to monopolise this space - but I had a flashback. Remember the Radio Shack Minimus 7's? They were (like DQ10s) made with cheap, crappy drivers (when "made in Japan" was NOT a compliment!) and they had NO RIGHT to sound as good as they did. Well, I remember that I went to a party at a friend-of-a-friend's house (we were in high school) and he had - I don't know exactly - somewhere around 16 or 18 or 20 pairs of these speakers stacked atop each other, on their sides with the tweeters inboard and held in-place with a piece of angle-iron that they were bolted to. I don't remember (may not have known) what drove them (the source was a reel-to-reel) but I wish I could experience that again! They sounded incredible (or at least in my drunked, pot-smoking stupor they did...)
Poor man's IRS...
Poor man's IRS...
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