A modern Wadia X64.4

[davenrk]

I have been fascinated by an old '90 Wadia X64.4 dac.
It has body, weight of the sound that gives you an incredibile realism while being luminous, detailed, deep, too
It's a transparent dac too, NOTE in a transparent system, I have Graham LS5/5 speakers
every cd sounds different, with a different tonality
maybe not the most timbral accuracy such as my YBA CD1 dopuble power supply cd player....but it's really astonishing for it's age

I was wondering if I can find a more modern dac with these features

Any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[Neil.Antin]

FWIW - going back 8-years ago, I had a Wadia 27ixV3 and replaced it with a Burson Conductor SL (https://6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/5.html) with the ESS9018 dac-chip. Was it as good as the Wadia, no but it was very close and close enough and I was shifting from digital being my primary source to analog. I use the Burson today (someday I may get a new dac)

The morale of the story is that dac technology has advanced quite a bit and yes there are dacs available that will far surpass the Wadia X64.4. I have no recommendations, but hopefully others will offer various recommendations with consideration that you are in the EU.

The problem you will be faced with are the vast numbers available and trying to make a decision. You should specify your budget since dacs today can range in cost easily into five figures.

Good Luck,

 

[Al M.]

I found it initially hard to reply since I have not heard the Wadia X64.4 DAC and therefore cannot put your comment about body and weight of sound into context.

On the low four figure end of the price scale I can recommend to try the DAC that I have, a Schiit Yggdrasil LIM (Less is More) DAC. Like the Wadia it is an R2R ladder DAC, but it is built on modern industrial precision DAC chips, with a proprietary digital filter (designer is Mike Moffat, formerly Theta Digital). The tonal balance is neutral, but in the context of my system (see my signature below) the sound has body and weight. It has more body than my previous delta sigma DAC, Berkeley Alpha DAC 2. I have heard DACs multiple the price, either in direct comparison or separately, which did not beat it or even were less preferable to my taste (and that of others with whom I shared listening experiences). A friend of mine sold his more than 10 times more expensive DAC in favor of an Yggdrasil.

To my ears it is faithful in timbre. I would not be surprised if it beat the old Wadia, technology has progressed. The Yggdrasil has excellent resolution, also low-level resolution.

You can try it out for little money. The restocking fee is 5 % if returned, but at a retail price of 2,300 bucks that's not much. Return time is 15 days, best to keep it running 24/7 for break-in.

You could also try the MIB (More is Better) version, which is reported to be even better. I can't vouch for it, not having heard it myself.

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Made in USA

www.schiit.com

 

[davenrk]

@Al M. thank you for your contribution.
The Schiit MIB was indeed on top of the list...unfortunately living in Europe there is not returning policy such as in the States, and I don't have the possibility to listen to it in a shop as it's not distributed...
Anyway yes....I'm very interested in the Yggy....the MIB version.
May I ask you: why don't you use the Unison USB input that should be the best input in the Yggy?
Probably I would buy an Innuos Zenith with the Yggy.
Unfortunately there is no I2S input....I could use the new Volumio Rivo Plus as transport.

 

[Al M.]

@Al M. thank you for your contribution.
The Schiit MIB was indeed on top of the list...unfortunately living in Europe there is not returning policy such as in the States, and I don't have the possibility to listen to it in a shop as it's not distributed...

You're welcome. There is a 14-day return policy according to the Schiit Europe website:

Schiit Yggdrasil Multibit DAC with Closed-Form Filter - EU plug 230V

Schiit Yggdrasil Multibit DAC with Closed-Form Filter - EU plug 230V

www.schiit-europe.com

There is also more here:

FAQs Archive - Schiit Europe

www.schiit-europe.com

Anyway yes....I'm very interested in the Yggy....the MIB version.

Great.

May I ask you: why don't you use the Unison USB input that should be the best input in the Yggy?

My Mutec reclocker has a USB input/output, but I don't actually think it works as an output to a DAC. I tried to find clues in the Mutec manual, but it's described by it as an input for a computer/streamer, and in reviews it is described as such as well. The AES/EBU input of the DAC that I use was always Mike Moffat's preferred one until the Unison USB was developed.

 

[Tam Lin]

The CH Precision C1 is a modern Wadia.
From the User Manual Rev 2.2, 12/6/2019:

The 4.8GFLOPS DPS engine for each channel performs several tasks, including synchronous spline-based PEtER upsampling (to 705.6/768 kHz ...
The digital conversion for each channel is handled by four Burr-Brown PCM1704 R2R chips.

 

[No Regrets]

I'd invite you to take a look at the Mojo Audio Mystique X-24AM R2R Ladder dac. Oh btw, the 24 simply stands for the year 2024. The "AM" stands for Amorphous Cores by the Swiss Company Lundahl who makes audiophile transformers and chokes.

The sound is full; it’s rich; it’s organic; it’s dynamic; it’s got great tone; it’s got detail; it’s got bass; it’s got weight and density...I’m loving that when it plays the "note" that you hear the attack of the note, but it’s not hard or over emphasized. You hear the full harmonic structure of the note (the fullness of sound/ the meat on the bones); and you can hear the decay of the note (ie: ringing of the cymbals/ bells/ or the trailing off of a sustained piano note).

With the Mojo, it sounds dynamic without sounding hard. With the Mojo, it plays in a relaxed and natural way without becoming fatiguing, but yet at the same time it still plays with speed, with dynamic expression and with emotion!

They offer a 45 day trial period so that you can make sure that this dac is synergistic with your system and your room. List price is $7500 USD, but I believe he is having a holiday sale of $1,000 USD off right now. In my humble opinion, it is worth every penny and more. At first glance, it looks diminutive in size as it is a 1/2 width product, but it is very deep and weighty as it is jam packed with transformers and chokes and other goodies.

I have no connection to Mojo Audio, other than being a very satisfied customer. This dac, along with my Jay's Audio Dedicated CD Transport is the first digital front end that I've had that doesn't make me miss playing my vinyl records. That's saying quite a lot coming from a guy that's been dedicated to vinyl for the last 50 years. Don't get me wrong... I still love playing my vinyl, but there is music out there that I enjoy that I can't get on vinyl and when I play those cd's thru the Mojo... it doesn't disappoint one single bit

The Mojo Mystique is on the second shelf just below the Jay's Audio CD Transport



Best wishes,
Don

 

[davenrk]

@Al M. did you compare the Yggy to the Mola Mola Tambaqui,too?

 

[Al M.]

@Al M. did you compare the Yggy to the Mola Mola Tambaqui,too?

Yes, but to me it was not completely conclusive because I am not sure if it was an apples-to-apples comparison because of cables used; those make a difference. The Tambaqui may have been slightly better than the Yggy LIM, but I didn't hear a day-and-night difference that would (to me) justify the much higher price. The Yggy MIB of course is supposed to be yet better than the Yggy LIM.

 

[Champ04]

I have been fascinated by an old '90 Wadia X64.4 dac.
It has body, weight of the sound that gives you an incredibile realism while being luminous, detailed, deep, too
It's a transparent dac too, NOTE in a transparent system, I have Graham LS5/5 speakers
every cd sounds different, with a different tonality
maybe not the most timbral accuracy such as my YBA CD1 dopuble power supply cd player....but it's really astonishing for it's age

I was wondering if I can find a more modern dac with these features

Any suggestions?

Thanks

I still have my 64.4. I did finally replace it. But not before upgrading it to the hilt. First, let me respond to the all to common claim that "modern dacs are way more advanced". Simply stated, that is completely false. The 64.4 runs at 2.8MHz. Yes, it actually runs at the same frequency as DSD does. But it does it not at a one bit depth, like DSD, but 18. That is still impressive no matter how you slice it. Quadruple your DSD and you still don't have the same depth of information as the 64.4.
Anyway, it would not be feasible to upgrade yours like I did mine. I literally replaced everything except the DSP and DAC chips. As in, I replaced the digital input, the Current to Voltage stage, the output buffer, and the entire power supply. How good was it? Well, at one point I invested in a full stack of dCS only to go back to the 64.4. And I later invested in the previous generation of Playback Designs, only to go back to the 64.4. I also had the top stuff from Esoteric, but went back to the 64.4. I even flirted with MSB only to remain with my trusty 64.4. I also tried several of the more modern Wadia pieces over the years. Namely, the 2000i, three different versions of the 27, the 780i, the S7, and the venerable 922. Of those, only the 27 is still viable. But only because it's the only one that won't spontaneously die on you. All of the others have fatal flaws in their power supplies that run the risk of dying and without recourse. So, despite them STILL being some of the most advanced D to A converters on the planet, stay away from any other Wadias.

If you really want to get more of that beautiful sound I can make two recommendations. First would be the Playback Designs MPD-8. It is, by far, the closest in sound quality and goodness that you love about your 64.4. I have one and use it on a weekly basis. If that one breaks the budget, the MPD-6 will suffice. Or, you can take a risk and track down a DAC that most people around here will look down their noses on. If you dare, find a used Exogal Comet and pair it with as good a 12V linear power supply as you can manage. Why the Comet? Because it's the biggest piece of sleeper gear in the history of high end audio. And because it was designed by the same guy who was on the team that invented the original Wadia DSP. I won't go into great detail but mention just two things. First is that he describes the Comet versus Wadia in this way, "The Wadia is a bicycle, the Comet is a Tesla". Secondly, how impressed am I with the Comet? I own three. One I use every day. The other two are back-ups. I honestly can't imagine life without one. Like I inferred above, people will piss on it because it was "affordable". But these people are convinced that dollar signs equals performance. People who truly understand high level math, and specifically it's application in DSP, know that the Comet contains what is currently THE most advanced DSP in the world. It just so happened to be built to be affordable. (Hence my strong encouragement to also get an exceptional power supply to go with it.)

Congrats on your appreciation of the old 64.4. It really is a magical historic piece.

 

[Rocoa]

find a used Exogal Comet and pair it with as good a 12V linear power supply as you can manage.

I agree. An incredible and fantastic DAC for the money.

 

[davenrk]

@Champ04 thank you for your posting!
I honestly did not know the Exogal Comet dac....unfortunately Exogal is gone 2 years ago...for thias reason you suggested me a used one...
Are you using the Comet Plus power supply, too? Do you think it was good or is better to find another one? (I like LinearTubeAudio LTA power supplies)

 

[Champ04]

Yes, the only way to get an Exogal is by finding one used. Unfortunately the company did shut down a couple years ago. Though it should be noted that it was 100% as a result of the worldwide Covid shutdown. There was massive demand and yet no supply for a critical chip used in the Comet. And Exogal found themselves last in line for it. They shut down for no better reason than they were unable to make product and their investors got shaky and pulled the plug.

Anyway, the Comet Plus power supply is nice enough. But a lot of people mistake it for a linear PS. It's not, its an SMPS with a ton of regulation built in. I've found that there is a lot more performance to be had by looking for something better. You don't need something with a ton of current, as the Comet draws less than 1amp. Look for the lowest noise you can find that has an output between 12 and 20 volts. It looks like the standard LPS+ from LTA will work just fine. It's a 12V/3A supply. Just make sure it's supplied with a standard 2.1mm barrel connector.

Before you dive into the Exogal I should mention that the remote that comes with it is not at all impressive. The Comet was designed to be used with an app on your phone. And with the company gone, it's no longer in any app store. It can still be found some places online but it's hit or miss on whether it will work with newer phone operating systems. So know going into this that you'll most likely be stuck with using the little plastic remote that was meant as a backup. Yes, it can be a pain. But the performance of the Comet makes it worthwhile. You are accustomed to using the 64.4, which has no volume control, so this is a moot point. But If you happen to find a Comet for sale that comes with a "Pulsar" grab it! That was a stop gap remote solution that Exogal put out in their last few months of operation.

P.S. Comets can be had for less than $1k these days. So don't be afraid to negotiate.

 

[davenrk]

If you happen to find a Comet for sale that comes with a "Pulsar" grab it! That was a stop gap remote solution that Exogal put out in their last few months of operation.

Sorry, I didn't understand this: was the "Pulsar" a remote control, correct?

 

[davenrk]

What is in your opinion the best input for the Comet?
Are you using a cd transport or a files transport?
Obviously it did not come with the AT&T st glass input.

 

[Champ04]

Yes, the Pulsar is a little box that enhances the remote control function only. It's not critical to make the Comet work, only an added convenience.

I'm using file servers and streamer. So I use both the USB and the AES inputs on the Comet.

 

[Champ04]

I have a friend who, surprisingly, uses the Toslink input on his Comet with great success. You can get a custom glass fiber cable from Lifatec that has AT&T at the source end and Toslink at the DAC end. It works just fine.

 

[davenrk]

You are accustomed to using the 64.4, which has no volume control, so this is a moot point. But If you happen to find a Comet for sale that comes with a "Pulsar" grab it! That was a stop gap remote solution that Exogal put out in their last few months of operation.

I would not need the volume control, I am using an integrated amp, I would use the remote control only to select the inputs