A question of value in today's hi-end.

[Old Listener]

Now let's talk about Value in Today's High-End.

I have no experience with the items you listed but at one time I had the Adcom pre-amp on my list. I don't have any recent CD player, amp or (high-end) speaker purchases to recommend either.

In Computer Audio, I'd nominate the J. River Media Center software as a huge value at $ 50. A new world of functionality is possible with computer based playback and JRMC brings it all to you. And it has the output modes like ASIO, WASAPI exclusive mode and Kernel Streaming to get your audio to your stereo system unmolested by the OS. (No Amarra or Pure Music needed.)

Bill

 

[JackD201]

This is one of the things that gets me with the language of audio. What the hell is the "speed" of a woofer?! Is it, that there is a difference of phase angle with frequency, that the distortion components vary, that the dispersion of the bass notes in the room varies, or what?

If we disconnected every driver apart from the woofer in 2 speakers do you think we would hear a difference in "speed"?

Frank

Literally "speed" Frank. More specifically acceleration and deceleration affected by electrical and mechanical impedance (resistance), air pressure inside (if boxed) and out (OB or planar), and inertia (mass of driver vs power required to start and stop it).

 

[NorthStar]

In Computer Audio, I'd nominate the J. River Media Center software as a huge value at $ 50. A new world of functionality is possible with computer based playback and JRMC brings it all to you. And it has the output modes like ASIO, WASAPI exclusive mode and Kernel Streaming to get your audio to your stereo system unmolested by the OS. (No Amarra or Pure Music needed.)

Bill

Only$50!!! Now that is very inexpensive! ...High-End for the masses, even the babies!

 

[DaveyF]

Literally "speed" Frank. More specifically acceleration and deceleration affected by electrical and mechanical impedance (resistance), air pressure inside (if boxed) and out (OB or planar), and inertia (mass of driver vs power required to start and stop it).

Not sure if there is much outside air pressure from a planar driver.. Which is why many feel that planars aren't able to dig really deep or do dynamics well.

 

[NorthStar]

Not sure if there is much outside air pressure from a planar driver.. Which is why many feel that planars aren't able to dig really deep or do dynamics well.

Great point!

Electrical pressure?

 

[microstrip]

Not sure if there is much outside air pressure from a planar driver.. Which is why many feel that planars aren't able to dig really deep or do dynamics well.

Planars do not go really deep because they are dipoles and suffer from bass cancellation due to reflection of the backwave at low frequencies, and the limited dynamic range is due to the excursion limits of the mylar diaphragm .

But within their range of operation they have excellent bass dynamics!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Planars do not go really deep because they are dipoles and suffer from bass cancellation due to reflection of the backwave at low frequencies, and the limited dynamic range is due to the excursion limits of the mylar diaphragm .

But within their range of operation they have excellent bass dynamics!

There have been plenty of dynamic dipoles that didn't suffer this limitation. Linkwitz Orions are both dipole and bipolar. They go to 20hz.

Tim

 

[Mark Seaton]

Literally "speed" Frank. More specifically acceleration and deceleration affected by electrical and mechanical impedance (resistance), air pressure inside (if boxed) and out (OB or planar), and inertia (mass of driver vs power required to start and stop it).

Please check the follow up discussion to Frank's question a few pages back. Much of the discussion, particularly my own posts, were clarifying that the subjective "speed" creates incorrect connotations related to factors which have no direct impact on the matter.

 

[RUR]

Planars do not go really deep because they are dipoles and suffer from bass cancellation due to reflection of the backwave at low frequencies....

Dipole low frequency cancellation occurs to the sides, which actually helps in-room by exciting fewer room modes. Discussion at Linkwitz' site here.

Who on this forum owns Soundlabs? They'll tell you they go plenty deep.

 

[JackD201]

Not sure if there is much outside air pressure from a planar driver.. Which is why many feel that planars aren't able to dig really deep or do dynamics well.

I've heard from owners of planars living at high altitudes (Baguio City) that they've had problems but not specifically about dynamics just that tonal balance is different when they moved there using the same kit. Come to think of it I've heard the same complaints from non-planar users as well. Anybody know of any studies relating barometric pressure and sound quality? I'd like to read one just out of curiosity.

 

[microstrip]

Who on this forum owns Soundlabs? They'll tell you they go plenty deep.

SoundLab A1s PX to be clear. Surprisingly they seem to go deeper than they go - they cut sharp at 28Hz in my long room.
Although their dynamic range is large enough for me, for those wanting stadium rock levels or some electronic types of music they have dynamic limitations.

As you said dipoles have the classical figure of 8 polar radiation pattern, but I was addressing the backwave cancellation in bass, that strongly depends on the distance between speaker and rear wall. I think that Linkwitz uses some equalization to compensate it.

 

[RUR]

SoundLab A1s PX to be clear. Surprisingly they seem to go deeper than they go - they cut sharp at 28Hz in my long room.
Although their dynamic range is large enough for me, for those wanting stadium rock levels or some electronic types of music they have dynamic limitations.

As you said dipoles have the classical figure of 8 polar radiation pattern, but I was addressing the backwave cancellation in bass, that strongly depends on the distance between speaker and rear wall. I think that Linkwitz uses some equalization to compensate it.

Gotcha. You're referring to the 6dB/octave baffle loss.

When I listened to a friend's A1's (non-PX), I was very happy with the low bass, wherever it measured out.

 

[Lee]

In the past I've defended high end products. I make points about how the flagship products trickle down to the lower priced stuff; about how flagship sales help create profits to stay in business; about how there is a market and they are simply meeting demand. I still think all of these are true but as I go to audio shows I see more and more high prices that are a bit astonishing even for this gear-loving jaded audiophile. The hobby seems to be becoming a sport of kings or at least CEOs and doctors.

And then I visit lots of rooms at the show that sound bad. Even the Magico Q5s were a disappointment at RMAF once you got above the bass.

 

[NorthStar]

I've heard from owners of planars living at high altitudes (Baguio City) that they've had problems but not specifically about dynamics just that tonal balance is different when they moved there using the same kit. Come to think of it I've heard the same complaints from non-planar users as well. Anybody know of any studies relating barometric pressure and sound quality? I'd like to read one just out of curiosity.

Jack, it is true that high altitude effects low bass frequencies by subduing their overall ouput depending on how high you are.
Subwoofers are greatly affected, so are Plasma TVs.

* Plasma displays don't work in altitude above 7,000 feet because their internal gases can't tolerate that height.
-> But I think that some companies are making plasma TV sets now that can handle higher elevations.



I'll try to find some info on this to share with you. I read somewhere before that someone living in the Colorado mountains have some major issues with his Plasma TV set.
And Tom Norton from UltimateAV mag, said at several reprises that a subwoofer with an additional 3 dB or so more output was required from where he used to live in the mountains of the South USA States (cannot remember exactly out of my head right now, perhaps Santa Fe in New Mexico?), and it is simply caused by the atmospheric pressure of higher altitude.

Me too I used to live higher up (I now live at ocean level), and I can attest to this!

* I'll get back to you soon as I found more about it, with link(s).

 

[NorthStar]

I did not found exactly what I was looking for, but here's some' that might be interesting to few among us:

1. Nature Of Bass

2. Ribbon's Ouput Varies Considerably With Altitude

3. Under Pressure: Loudspeakers At Altitude

 

[JackD201]

Great Sleuthing Bob! Thanks!

Whatever happened to Blackburn? He was always a lively read.

 

[NorthStar]

Doug was and I believe still is a writer for Widescreen Review.
He also post occasionally at AVS Forum.

 

[JackD201]

Please check the follow up discussion to Frank's question a few pages back. Much of the discussion, particularly my own posts, were clarifying that the subjective "speed" creates incorrect connotations related to factors which have no direct impact on the matter.

Thank you Mark, and sorry I missed this post. I was clarifying to Frank that I wasn't talking about "subjective speed" but rather the way a driver responds to the voltage swings and just some of the factors that affect this. In hindsight, I shouldn't have used "speed" at all because of its double meaning in the audiophile lexicon. Please forgive my lapses in terminology.

 

[Mark Seaton]

Thank you Mark, and sorry I missed this post. I was clarifying to Frank that I wasn't talking about "subjective speed" but rather the way a driver responds to the voltage swings and just some of the factors that affect this. In hindsight, I shouldn't have used "speed" at all because of its double meaning in the audiophile lexicon. Please forgive my lapses in terminology.

No worries, but even the physical aspect is a bit misunderstood...

Literally "speed" Frank. More specifically acceleration and deceleration affected by electrical and mechanical impedance (resistance), air pressure inside (if boxed) and out (OB or planar), and inertia (mass of driver vs power required to start and stop it).

While a bit counter-intuitive at first glance, mass and motor strength (force) does not affect the speed or precision of motion. The mass or motor force does affect the amount of amplifier power required to produce a given level (= efficiency or sensitivity), but in a direct radiator has no effect on high frequency extension. The Q or shape of the low frequency resonance is changed by both parameters, but this is not a case of more is better, but rather a matter of balance.

Getting right to the point, you can't have any "fast" motion of a woofer or signal without high frequency content. This is true for both the start and stop of a signal waveform. If you put an electronic low pass on the signal, both the start and stop of the resulting signal that a woofer reproduces IS slower, and only needs to respond fast enough. The "fast" response and sharp edges in any waveform only exist due to high frequency content and the higher frequency drive units.

 

[JackD201]

Interesting! While we're at it (seriously OT now, sorry Davey!) how does one "time" (or balance factors for) say a series of bass plucks and kicks whose wave forms is split up between for illustration purposes, two drivers, one with low excursion and one with a long one as is typically the case with piston drivers? In my bare explanation to frank I did mention that there are mechanical and acoustic resistance factors to. I'm glad you're here at WBF to paint the clearer picture Mark. My attempt really does look clumsier and clumsier the more I read it.

As a feeble attempt to stay on topic, the saying is that good bass is the most expensive thing to do well. Tight bass is a rarity in mass market gear where bloat, overhang and port noise is common even for powered subs so I guess there is some validity to the saying even as rare examples to the contrary might be out there.