All that is wrong with "HiFi"

[MarcelNL]

I have heard both a Strad, Guarneri del Gesu and Amati live in my own living room numerous times because my ex had all three at home at the same time for awhile. It is possible to capture much of what is heard live...it is harder to play it back correctly. My R2R tape recordings and my 16/48 DAT recordings sounded pretty similar.

I can tell you though emphatically that if you want to hear what a violin recording really sounds like then you need something other than Wilson speakers...sorry, I have too much experience with violin to state otherwise. Full range electrostats or ribbons probably do the best to capture the correct tone and detail and a few horns will capture much of that with the dynamics intact (where the planars will fall slightly short).

quite a few violins to listen to, one album

 

[DasguteOhr]

If only you guys knew how hard it is to find non-fatiguing and musically correct components at the budget level!

For less than 1k€ I would immediately think of Musical Fidelity or Cambridge Audio and for speakers Wharfdale or AE (Acoustic Energy)

 

[WillyT]

What the hell is wrong with me?

I'm buying a pair of MSRP US$200k loudspeakers.

Haven't heard them directly.

Only heard the smaller bookshelf version of them last year.

Although i have to say I have been using a couple of models of previous bookshelf and floorstand designs of the same designer person over the last 25 years.

Paid 50% deposit.

They just started placing orders for the internal components.

Expected construction finishing Jan 2025.

Need to fly to Annapolis, Maryland to listen to them.

The amps I just ordered to match them is 4 piece monsters I have yet heard as well, although I got good prices on them, and they belong to the same brand of amps being used by the designer as his reference amps.

I seem to be straying further and further away from my dream of building a system comprising time aligned, high efficiency loudspeakers coupled with low-watt, non-metallic chassis amplifiers.

I'm out of cash so I've got to drop plans to order the custom Galder/Odin with Delrin Platter and Polymer Plinth.

Wish me luck everything go smoothly no hiccups during delivery of the new loudspeakers.

YG XV?

 

[MarcelNL]

For less than 1K and having a history of modding gear I'd immediately think of DIY, may take a while though.

At ETF '24 I've heard some seriously good sound that for sure can compete with 'current high end' and it all sounded more natural as well.
a 1.2 Watt SET, linked to a 115dB/W/m horn setup that sounded great.

 

[ssfas]

So you’ve heard the MSB DAC?

What I mean is- a lot of people are critical of a $10k DAC. They would argue it’s not necessary for a DAC to cost that much. You and I both know differently. I’ve never heard the MSB DAC so I can’t/won’t say it is worth it. My DAC provides me supreme satisfaction and so I have no desire to spend more.

I’ve not heard the MSB DAC probably because it has almost no retail distribution in the UK, it being made by a very small bespoke company 5000 miles away, whereas virtually all of the demonstrations I’ve been to over the last 10 years have been with the Vivaldi or Rossini dCS DACs, which are widely distributed (virtually every dealer I know sells them) and made 40 miles up the road.

Iarted streaming with the Linn Akurate DS in 2010, which was a very good streamer/DAC (it still is), the problem was much more upstream with network infrastructure and hardware. So I’ve been at as a long time, from when streaming audio quality was really pretty grim, but knowing from 2013 when I first heard the Vivaldi system how good it could be.

The Holo May set a benchmark for affordable ladder DACs, with extremely low noise and jitter and a very analog sound, ideally when operating in native DSD mode. I also have the Gryphon Diablo 300 DAC, which I’ve used fairly extensively upsampling to 32/384 PCM. My digital is actually at the moment set up to play through Innuos Sense in non- oversampling mode. it’s quite difficult when you have three options with the same hardware which all sound good, with slightly different presentation.

The Holo May is a fairly expensive mainstream product at around $6000. Because they know so many people use it with HQ player in DSD mode, they’ve released a paired down product purely for that purpose that costs about $1200. This is a competitive market and there is a range of superb products from a range of manufacturers, none of which disappoint.

I sorted out the infrastructure starting with fibre-optic in 2016, a Ubiquiti network and a complete rewire of my house starting at the 3-phase power cable buried under the street. I have violin recordings by world class musicians who I’ve heard played dozens of times, often sitting no more than 10 feet away, mostly recorded by the same engineer in the same venue (Henry Wood Hall). There is absolutely nothing left behind, even from Wilson speakers, which are a little tamer than focal or B&W, two of the popular brands over here. Having got to where I’ve got, I’ve got absolutely no desire, to go to DCS or anyone else. I could have a Rossini Apex here tomorrow if I wanted, I just have no inclination, desire or fear of missing out.

I think this is good for hi-fi because, having heard reference converters, I’m convinced that normal people can have pretty much the same or indistinguishable sound quality as a price that they can afford.

 

[Lee]

I have heard both a Strad, Guarneri del Gesu and Amati live in my own living room numerous times because my ex had all three at home at the same time for awhile. It is possible to capture much of what is heard live...it is harder to play it back correctly. My R2R tape recordings and my 16/48 DAT recordings sounded pretty similar.

I can tell you though emphatically that if you want to hear what a violin recording really sounds like then you need something other than Wilson speakers...sorry, I have too much experience with violin to state otherwise. Full range electrostats or ribbons probably do the best to capture the correct tone and detail and a few horns will capture much of that with the dynamics intact (where the planars will fall slightly short).

That's not correct. I bought my Wilson Alexia 2s in part because of how well our classical sessions sounded on them. They reproduce violin tone very well as they do guitar as well. The Alexia Vs have even more refined capture of instruments.

 

[Lee]

Both ARC and Wilson are upgrade cycle masters.

True but there is usually a five year upgrade cycle which is fine. And more importantly, a significant upgrade in sonic performance.

 

[Lee]

I was looking at the MSB website last night - a brand I've never looked at. I have no idea what they sound like and I don't care as I don't have $100,00 for a DAC. The verbal diarrhoea that counts as product description was nauseating. They sort of suggest they've reinvented something, or everything, but it turns out it's just a 3-box ladder DAC. It's basically a company making bespoke products with a degree of inefficiency and high cost that is commendable in its absurdity. The fact that they have all this CNC gear and two staff running it, and one product requires 3 machined boxes, multiple side panels and containers and then hand-finishing - even at the prices they charge it probably doesn't leave much for the cost of the electronics themselves.

The cost-no-object approach to high performance takes the product into a miscrospically small elite market. At the other end, you have companies who look to ways of providing the same technology as cheaply as possible - for example the EverSolo A10 is a streamer-DAC with two high class OXCO clocks (an MSB selling point) and sells for about $4,000.

In a way my digital system is a comparable 4-box set up along the lines of MSB:
- The heavy lifting processing (Roon Server and and HQ Player) done by a computer on the network, feeding DSD256 to the audio system over a fibre-optic VLAN.
- An ultra low-noise digital transport (Innuos Pulsar)
- A 2-box ladder DAC with vanishingly low noise and jitter, the lowest Stereophile had ever measured (Holo May)
The whole lot cost me about $10,000, it retails now for about $15,000. So 15% of the MSB cost and probably sounds much the same.

I suspect it's good for HiFi that I can have a great sounding digital system for $10-$15,000, that is just as enjoyable as a far more expensive analogue system, and people who want to pay $150,000 (adding a suitable streamer) if it makes them feel better can happily do so. As long as the two appreciate that they have nothing in common and, if they do meet, respect each other's choices. I'm not even sure sound quality comes in to it.

Magazine reviews are almost pure advertising and most video reviews are for people with poor time management made by people who can't get a proper job.

Most of the time I listen through a ceiling audio system, for many hours at a time. They cost about £450 each. The same designer has just launched a £400,000 loudspeaker. Both are hifi products. All that really matters is that people buy the product and enjoy using them to listen to music.

Despite what you may have read into my reply, I am in no way discouraging the leaps and bounds happening in more affordable audio. In fact I am often astonished how good entry level gear has become recently.

I just think it's odd to complain about high end prices without knowing the underlying economics such as Bill of Materials and overhead costs.

My friends Jim and Jacob have $200k Dartzeel monoblocks. It's a boat load of money that I don't have yet. . But I am happy for them and they sound AMAZING.

When I go to car events, I don't hear Porsche fans say things like, "I can't believe Ted spent $400k+ on the GT2RS! He could have gotten 95% of the performance by buying a Cayman for $70k!"

They also don't say things like, "I can't believe Bob spent $500 a tire for Michelin PS4Ss! He could have bough Continentals for $350!"

I do agree that some of the marketing speak can be fact-free at times. But marketers gonna market.

I have heard the Holos and they are excellent. But they are no where near a Select 2 or Cascade. MSB is a great company.

 

[andromedaaudio]

hen I go to car events, I don't hear Porsche fans say things like, "I can't believe Ted spent $400k+ on the GT2RS! He could have gotten 95% of the performance by buying a Cayman for $70k!"

Cant compare .
With cars you have measurable power output / lap times .
You dont have that in audio , unless you measure SQ in the amount of boxes / machined aluminium / carbon .

Audio is about perception.

More like preferring a 1990 s V12 to a modern hybrid

 

[Rt66indierock]

It would be fine to write that someone was “blown away by the sound of a system”.

It is a very different thing to write that someone was “literally blown away by the sound of a system”.

Do you not see the radically different meanings between those two sentences?

“Literally “should not be used to add emphasis. If you want to add emphasis, simply right that the listener was “really” or “extremely” blown away.

We should bring the language of how we describe the sound of audio systems back down to earth, and in my opinion, focus on what the listener actually hears rather than speak in metaphors that have vague meanings.

Well, I thought for a moment you had a point. So, I Googled literally meaning and blown away meaning. The Oxford Dictionary definition, Informal uses literally the way I did. Blown away is defined as very impressed. Sorry I’m on solid ground here.

I’ve been to three Molly Tuttle and Golden Highway concerts. The first was unamplified. It was fun. Similar to the YouTube video of the song Eldorado. The second was at the NW String Summit in 2022. There is a YouTube video of this performance, and you can judge for yourself how the crowd was reacting. The sound was pretty good for an outdoor venue, I’m maybe a little biased since it is the home turf of my youth. I walked out of the concert at the MIM thinking they could never record what I just heard. It was that good.

 

[Lee]

I disagree, somewhat. The Wilsons can come very close. I used to play the violin. Hearing a violin from the player’s perspective is different from the listener’s perspective. Many recordings sound like they are from the player’s perspective. In that case they sound good through my Wilsons. When the recordings sounds more from the listener’s perspective then it is not quite there- 90% maybe. I think tone and timber are right but it has less detail and being a player in the past, I’m used to the up close level of detail.

On the other hand, the Cello sounds very good to me through the Wilsons. I have a live, unamplified reference for the Cello. It took some work with cables, isolation and room adjustments but the Cello sounds right.

Todd Garfinkle's ma recording of the Bach cello suites at 24/176 is a reference for me. As is the Starker box set of LPs from AP.

 

[Lee]

Cant compare .
With cars you have measurable power output / lap times .
You dont have that in audio , unless you measure SQ in the amount of boxes / machined aluminium / carbon .

Audio is about perception.

More like preferring a 1990 s V12 to a modern hybrid

I think it's a good example for illustration as in both cases the visceral aspects are subjective in nature.

 

[PeterA]

I just sneezed and literally blew away some of my posts. .

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have a graduate degree in English and I am blown away by the silliness of this thread. Precision of language is required at times. Life-saving at times.

Other times, things are just a "manner of speaking" ...in the vernacular of the peasantry. Carry on bravely...

ps: apologies for the above incorrect usage of the "points ellipsis."

 

[Audiohertz2]

I’m blown away by the responses ....!

 

[Lagonda]

Come on guys we are so much better than this !

 

[Lee]

Come on guys we are so much better than this !

We are?

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...not me. That's all I got.

 

[ssfas]

Though I am not sure if the digital platform you recommend really is just as enjoyable to listen to as any far more expensive analogue system, it may be to you and that is fine.

What I very much appreciate is that you are sharing the results of your experience and expense to help others (and make a point). You give an affordable streamer-DAC (EverSolo A10 for about $4,000) as a device that shuns the foo-foo polished chassis (that makes up perhaps 50% of the cost of making high end audio candy) for a simpler box containing what you believe to be the proper performance bits (two OSCO clocks).

My hat is off to you. Well done, and I hope others will follow your example for the benefit of those less well off (in both experience and funds).

As explained above, my reference was dCS Vivaldi and I don't feel short-changed with my digital system at a fraction of the cost, so I don't have any interest in pursuing alternatives. I only wish Innuos would include a fibre optic input. I don't suffer from FOMO. I can afford MSB and dCS, it just doesn't interest me.

I still own a Luxman L509X. That has a very shiny CNC chassis machined to an extremely high quality, probably just as good as MSB. The difference is they do it in volume and likely at a dramatically cheaper cost.

As we have near identical turntables, even if yours has slightly more upmarket appendages, we probably have similar analogue quality sources. I don't really make direct comparisons. If it's classical I usually stream. Jazz, I usually spin a disc. Some other things may be one or the other. Not that it bothers me at all, but the analogue was quite a it more expensive.

It's difficult to make comparisons. For example, our CTC Garrards seem to cost a third of Artisan Fidelity Garrards. I have no idea why. Maybe Ray undercharges. Maybe Artisan overcharge. SME certainly do for their version.

I've heard top-of-the-line units from Brinkmann and Vertere, but that's about it. I'm more than happy with the Garrard 301, and it looks good.

Eventually most premium technology gets done at a fraction of the cost. That's reality.

 

[Rensselaer]

As explained above, my reference was dCS Vivaldi and I don't feel short-changed with my digital system at a fraction of the cost, so I don't have any interest in pursuing alternatives. I only wish Innuos would include a fibre optic input. I don't suffer from FOMO. I can afford MSB and dCS, it just doesn't interest me.

I still own a Luxman L509X. That has a very shiny CNC chassis machined to an extremely high quality, probably just as good as MSB. The difference is they do it in volume and likely at a dramatically cheaper cost.

As we have near identical turntables, even if yours has slightly more upmarket appendages, we probably have similar analogue quality sources. I don't really make direct comparisons. If it's classical I usually stream. Jazz, I usually spin a disc. Some other things may be one or the other. Not that it bothers me at all, but the analogue was quite a it more expensive.

It's difficult to make comparisons. For example, our CTC Garrards seem to cost a third of Artisan Fidelity Garrards. I have no idea why. Maybe Ray undercharges. Maybe Artisan overcharge. SME certainly do for their version.

I've heard top-of-the-line units from Brinkmann and Vertere, but that's about it. I'm more than happy with the Garrard 301, and it looks good.

Eventually most premium technology gets done at a fraction of the cost. That's reality.

How does the CTC 301 compare with the Brinkmann (I considered those high mass turntables when I went for the high mass brass platter and panzerholz plinth, though I’ve not heard one).