AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

[Xymox]

Just a quick update..

I have just taken my 40th order. I have a backlog now. Any new orders may not ship until august.

This is awesome - lots of people are now enjoying the ATVX.

I take direct orders, and my exclusive distributor, Bill Parish - GTT audio, is soon to have available inventory once he has caught up with demand as well. https://gttaudio.com/

Reviews are in progress.

I updated the site a bit https://www.appletvx.com/

 

[odz]

So, when Xymox told me there was going to be another upgrade, that might even be bigger than the first iteration , in terms of PQ and SQ, I didn't call him a bald-faced liar to his face, but the thought crossed my mind. Indeed, the original appletvx had so far surpassed my expectations, that I thought it possible he had a little credence, and I owed him the chance to put the proof to the pudding. My thinking was that other pieces in the audio puzzle that made up my audio amalgamation were probably getting maxed out, and there had to be an acme that I was probably closing in on. I have what I consider to be a pretty high-end system, but have already gone into that, suffice it to say that I was extremely happy with the initial upgrade and how it had transformed my system. It was stunning. With the 2nd iteration, the first thing noticeable was the SQ, indeed, bass was much tighter, and more detail immediately apparent. there is a break-in period, about two hours for me, where the SQ got significantly smoother, and yet oddly, PQ out of the box made me think something was wrong, a lot of pixelation and grain the most obvious. So much so that I started tinkering with parameters on my Sony 77" master TV. 2h later I returned all parameters back to where they had been and it was sublime, literally blowing away my conceptions of what was possible. I had upgraded my PC from Shunyata ZtronAnaconda to shunyata Sigma Digital prior to 2nd iteration so know it did not have anything to do with the enhanced PQ or SQ I was witnessing, but its presence was very noticeable on the first appletvx. To say this 2nd iteration equals the upgrade of the first. -Maybe. To say it is another enormous, and unbelievable upgrade, is without doubt. Old movies, I just rewatched "the quick and the dead" looked as if it had a 4k transfer. Stunning. 4k content is better than I've ever seen -anywhere. The description I have given Xymox is that, in my view, the SQ is more analogy sounding when compared to the cd portion of my Esoteric cd/dac which is fed via glass toslink from tv, and HDMI(nothing special) from the appletvx. the CD portion is more pristine, precise; with the appletvx excelling in smoothness, bass power, depth. they both have commanding presences, but having struggled for a long time to get the Bass right, -powerful and still tight, this has been transcendental. "Precise" and "pristine" sound like great adjectives to use when describing SQ, but the smooth analogy sound coming from the Appletvx is, in other ways equally impressive, and depending on the music being played , preferred. Kudos, Xymox, Incredible!!

 

[Xymox]

So, when Xymox told me there was going to be another upgrade, that might even be bigger than the first iteration , in terms of PQ and SQ, I didn't call him a bald-faced liar to his face, but the thought crossed my mind. Indeed, the original appletvx had so far surpassed my expectations, that I thought it possible he had a little credence, and I owed him the chance to put the proof to the pudding. My thinking was that other pieces in the audio puzzle that made up my audio amalgamation were probably getting maxed out, and there had to be an acme that I was probably closing in on. I have what I consider to be a pretty high-end system, but have already gone into that, suffice it to say that I was extremely happy with the initial upgrade and how it had transformed my system. It was stunning. With the 2nd iteration, the first thing noticeable was the SQ, indeed, bass was much tighter, and more detail immediately apparent. there is a break-in period, about two hours for me, where the SQ got significantly smoother, and yet oddly, PQ out of the box made me think something was wrong, a lot of pixelation and grain the most obvious. So much so that I started tinkering with parameters on my Sony 77" master TV. 2h later I returned all parameters back to where they had been and it was sublime, literally blowing away my conceptions of what was possible. I had upgraded my PC from Shunyata ZtronAnaconda to shunyata Sigma Digital prior to 2nd iteration so know it did not have anything to do with the enhanced PQ or SQ I was witnessing, but its presence was very noticeable on the first appletvx. To say this 2nd iteration equals the upgrade of the first. -Maybe. To say it is another enormous, and unbelievable upgrade, is without doubt. Old movies, I just rewatched "the quick and the dead" looked as if it had a 4k transfer. Stunning. 4k content is better than I've ever seen -anywhere. The description I have given Xymox is that, in my view, the SQ is more analogy sounding when compared to the cd portion of my Esoteric cd/dac which is fed via glass toslink from tv, and HDMI(nothing special) from the appletvx. the CD portion is more pristine, precise; with the appletvx excelling in smoothness, bass power, depth. they both have commanding presences, but having struggled for a long time to get the Bass right, -powerful and still tight, this has been transcendental. "Precise" and "pristine" sound like great adjectives to use when describing SQ, but the smooth analogy sound coming from the Appletvx is, in other ways equally impressive, and depending on the music being played , preferred. Kudos, Xymox, Incredible!!

Thank you odz

I go thru the same thing. I think, "there is NO WAY" it can get better. Then I try out some mod, some cap brand change, some spacing or changes to RF absorption and OMG.. WHAT THA HELL and its just way better. Its REALLY trippy and, I must say annoying, doing the work. I can't measure the changes no matter what test equip I use. Yet the changes in the pic and sound are HUGE. This whole "No way it can get better" and I change a cap brand or value, or brand of voltage regulator, or output transistor in the linear, and BOOM huge difference,,, is what has me so fascinated. HDMI is being affected in ways that are PLAINLY obvious to the eye, yet, I can't measure any difference. And these are HUGE changes. It turned into a addiction. EVERY night I would tinker.. and EVERY night it got better. SOmetimes BIG leaps. Sometimes incremental.. But for the last 3 months I improved it every night. No joke.

The ONLY explanation is that there is something going on with HDMI that the current perceptual model of vision does not cover. There is something like video jitter we dont know to measure yet and I am affecting that. I think this also goes beyond HDMI. I know I am radically dejittering the CPU, bus and ethernet rcvr chips. I am for sure lowering phase noise on the clock chips. The waveforms on the bus and various data lines is more square - not sure exactly why but having a far stiffer power supply helps make cleaner waveforms i guess.

I have at least a thousand hours of R&D time into this now. I have learned some things. Just like in audio CAPS MATTER. The size, shape, value, brand. I think what matters most is a pretty crazy engineering thought. I think the FLOW of current is what matters. A crisp clean flow all the way thru to the wall power. Like a microamp pulse of demand from the CPU needs to have the shortest path with the least parts so its quick and has no ringing or dampening. This is REALLY HARD. For example if you take a line of caps along a wire and then a long wire and more caps at the end.. If you do time domain reflectometry ( TDR ) you see reflected points in time as the current pulse travels down the wire or thru a PCB or thru parts. All these reflections smear out the pulse in time. So now I work more in the time domain. Even parts themselves have reflections and absorptions internally. The other issue is wire. Litz approaches work FAR better at the frequencies and impedance involved.

So I have had to embrace more of a alchemic approach to engineering. LOTS of trial and error.

Thanks again Odz. My goal was to share this crazy better experence with people. Its a huge pain making these things and doing production. I am glad people are enjoying my product.

OH.. I think I have reached a point I cant make it better. I have been trying to, even if just for one that is even better just for myself. For the last 3 weeks I have been unable to improve PQ or SQ. I have tried all sorts of stuff. I am even using a dual chassis linear approach with the first one based on a all discrete parts ( no ICs just transistors ) done by Lambda in the 1970's that i modded the crap out of and got a 30Vdc output with noise at -131db under 2A load that has remote sensing that works out to 1Mhz for noise cancelation. I fed that as a first stage to the linear I a shipping now as the 2nd stage. All that work,, no difference. Actually it was a bit worse. I think this was simply because there was more stuff between the ATVX and the wall power.

I can see VERY obvious differences in brightness of a picture between 2 power supplies I have here for testing. Its a big enough difference I think I can measure it with a light meter. I am going to try and do a video where in one continous shot I switch between 2 power supplies and measure brightness and demonstrate a measureable difference from the same source device with no changes to it hooked to the same set and same cable. Just the power supply changes. . This is a BIG deal because as far as i can read up on, HDMI should be lossless. So a measurable difference in luma would be a big deal and leave open a big WTF is going on.. I see these changes every everything I do, like its a analog device, so I want to start a discussion as to why and I need proof. A vid would make this easy to go post on high end HDMI engineering forums and send to key people at places like Tektronix to explain. Maybe send to some key HDMI committee guys to explain,, cuz I do NOT get what is going on at all. To me it is now REALLY obvious HDMI makers have missed the boat and what is universally shipping in the world today looks and sounds TERRIBLE and no one noticed. This can be addressed to VASTLY improve PQ and SQ from ALL devices that use HDMI. Once I am caught up on production and reviews and such I want to work on changing HDMI. We need some new science and new engineering. I am going to try and spur some changes..

 

[Xymox]

I got out my x-right system. I made a bunch of measurements using the AppleTV color bars. I cant measure meaningful changes that i, and others, can plainly see going between 2 R&D power supplies i have.

It defines understanding. Now that i have the X-Right all setup on a laptop and easy to use I will explore things better using better test patterns.

What i really need is to somehow measure the picture being emitted on HDMI. Like a HDMI decoder that can measure picture quality elements. But as I guess the picture is perfect from HDMI there is no reason to do this and so that test suite does not exist on gear.

I will continue my testing. If I can see it, surely I can measure it. I wish I had a Photo Research PR-650 or newer.

 

[Xymox]

First review..

Xtreme Projectors Hotrodded Apple TV 4K Video StreamerImpressions: A Brief BLAST about the Xtreme Projectors Hot-Rodded Apple TV (TVX) 4K Video Streamer - Positive Feedback

Impressions: A Brief BLAST about the Xtreme Projectors Hotrodded Apple TV 4K Video Streamer

positive-feedback.com

 

[Billinge]

I got out my x-right system. I made a bunch of measurements using the AppleTV color bars. I cant measure meaningful changes that i, and others, can plainly see going between 2 R&D power supplies i have.

It defines understanding. Now that i have the X-Right all setup on a laptop and easy to use I will explore things better using better test patterns.

What i really need is to somehow measure the picture being emitted on HDMI. Like a HDMI decoder that can measure picture quality elements. But as I guess the picture is perfect from HDMI there is no reason to do this and so that test suite does not exist on gear.

I will continue my testing. If I can see it, surely I can measure it. I wish I had a Photo Research PR-650 or newer.

HDMI can't be perfect, nothing is. All that you can say is HDMI cables, TV's meet an arbitrary standard defined by some group of engineers to be acceptable when delivered over a set of mis-used protocols ;-) Any test equipment is probably configured to measure the minimum 'eye' measurement criteria is met. I presume it doesn't measure that this cable or tv measures 20% better than another

It's obvious to me visually on OLED if I change power cables, HDMI lead or audiophile fuse that the saturation and intensity of the picture changes. Even the temperature of the tv screen seems to be affected depending on the quality of the power supply, runs lower on good supply

just my 2 cents

 

[Xymox]

Its odd tho because everyone sees changes in perceived brightness with the ATVX and I can swap between 2 kinds of power supplies and even my friends immd see a brightness difference and doing informal ABs can 100% identify the ATVX vs the ATV. So surely there is something I can measure ? Well, VERY weirdly, using a very accurate tool, I cant measure it. Its some kind of gap in our percerptual science that for me as a engineer is fascinating. Something is changing, but, we don't have a good enough understanding of human visual perception to know what to measure in the signal. Its really interesting stuff for me.

Eventually once I get caught up with orders I want to come back to this.

 

[Xymox]

 

[jhulton]

So when Bill Parrish says something extremely positive about a piece of equipment, I usually listen. Bill has always steered me right so when he did the AppleTVX review above on Youtube, I had to check it out.
Now I am not a total videophile but I do have a great audio system thanks to GTTAudio and a respectable Sony 4k TV in my room. Or so I thought!

And after I ordered the AppleTVX from Bill, I found a one day deal on a Sony A9 HDTV. YEH!
All I can say is O M G!

The AppleTVX was great on my older Sony 800x but now on the A9 its unreal.
Watch some golf (I know a good walk spoiled!) and you are on the greens with the guys. Watch something on AppleTV like Last Days of Ptolemy Grey (Recommend!!), the 3d feel and ambiance creates total immersion.

And Chris, the Magic Man who invented this magic is so accessible and helpful.
Walk don't run to GTAudio and order one if state of the art video is in your zone. WOW!

 

[Xymox]

Thank you jhulton

Yes indeed the ATVX looks incredible on a OLED. Its hard to describe it to people. Once in front of it, its not anything even seasoned videophiles have seen before and I get tons of comments that usally start with "OMG".. I have heard that from seasoned reviewers, colorists, and people who have being doing video for decades. I GO OMFG nearly nightly STILL and I have been doing video a long time.

A lot of what i do to it I now describe as alchemy. Its beyond just electronic engineering. The wire for example i use. Special silver stuff, the insulation, not normal. The solder - not normal. How I use the wire in a Litz arrangement. The parts, I look at the materials of the parts. I worked in the time domain, how the flow and reflections occur in the wire and parts. High end audio engineers get all this, but, you just never see this alchemy applied to video. Its also very different applying it to things like a CPU and HDMI chip. So this is what I consider the Magic.

Well you have had your setup for days now. Its now really burning in and settling. This is where it starts getting really fun. Its very addicting..

I am going to go watch now. Its just as fun for me as it is for all my clients.

 

[Xymox]

Just a update

I have now shipped a lot of systems. The last few weeks have been INTENSE production.

These are now in a lot of diverse setups. A LOT of AB has occurred with top HDMI sources. They have been taken around and people have been trying them on lots of displays.

EVERYBODY and in EVERY system people have been jaw dropped. Its been really fun hearing from everyone. Not many people post here, but I get calls from each person so far. I am humbled and very happy everyone is so excited and happy.

And things have only just begun. More reviews in progress. Lots of people are talking to others about it and inviting them over to see.

The backlog has been managable so far so everyone is getting a system fairly quickly.

 

[Xymox]

Oooooo.... Wireworld's new HDMI cable is awesome. I have been doing a bunch of ABs of different HDMI cables and this new WW cables looks and sounds awesome..

Also. I have now shipped 91 units. I have finally caught up and have stock if anyone wants a system. There is a review tho that will hit soon and that will most likely put me back ordered again.

 

[Billinge]

Oooooo.... Wireworld's new HDMI cable is awesome. I have been doing a bunch of ABs of different HDMI cables and this new WW cables looks and sounds awesome..

Also. I have now shipped 91 units. I have finally caught up and have stock if anyone wants a system. There is a review tho that will hit soon and that will most likely put me back ordered again.

I had the older WW silver starlight , not the very top level solid silver one but next one down but I replaced it with a mix of Nordost Heimdall 2, BlueHeaven, Audiquest thunderbird 48 and carbon 48 across my hdmi connections. Sound is greatly affected as is picture. I also replaced all my uk plug fuses with quantum purple/orange which made a big difference. I bought all but 1 of the replacement hdmi cables used. I also made heavy duty mains leads with furutech cable from MCRU. All adds up to a better solution than stock

 

[Zeotrope]

I think it‘s so great that @Xymox has done this work and shared it with the world. I have been dreaming of an improved Apple TV for a long time. Mine is coming in a couple of days - will post impressions here.

Now I would love a “Kaleidescape-X” as that should benefit from the same type of upgrades to the audio and video that the Apple TV has. The first thing I did when I installed my Strato player was throw out the $1 power supply (which was no noisy I could hear the HD spin through my speakers). Since K-scape is shipping units with junk supplies, you know how much consideration they gave to jitter and HDMI output quality… But this is for another day and thread.

For now, I’m celebrating that the Apple TV X even exists!
Price: I think it’s very fair. Consider that the ATV costs $200 and a good linear power supply is at least $500. There are tons more updates in the X than the power supply as we know, and huge amounts of R&D and trial and error went in, and then hours of labor for each unit. And a margin needs to be made, of course. Plus the dealer also needs to make a margin… so while $2500 is certainly not cheap, it’s priced to share the magic with as many people as possible.
We should all be thankful that we can just buy this and have it arrive in a few days.
If we don’t have good content, there’s no point to having a world-class system. And in the AV world, good quality sources are ceasing to exist.

 

[Zeotrope]

A lot of this is because of Dolby licensing. Buying the proper license to downsample Dolby surround to stereo properly is super expensive, only the TV ccompanies can afford it.

Trinnov Altitude will do it.

 

[Xymox]

I think it‘s so great that @Xymox has done this work and shared it with the world. I have been dreaming of an improved Apple TV for a long time. Mine is coming in a couple of days - will post impressions here.

Now I would love a “Kaleidescape-X” as that should benefit from the same type of upgrades to the audio and video that the Apple TV has. The first thing I did when I installed my Strato player was throw out the $1 power supply (which was no noisy I could hear the HD spin through my speakers). Since K-scape is shipping units with junk supplies, you know how much consideration they gave to jitter and HDMI output quality… But this is for another day and thread.

For now, I’m celebrating that the Apple TV X even exists!
Price: I think it’s very fair. Consider that the ATV costs $200 and a good linear power supply is at least $500. There are tons more updates in the X than the power supply as we know, and huge amounts of R&D and trial and error went in, and then hours of labor for each unit. And a margin needs to be made, of course. Plus the dealer also needs to make a margin… so while $2500 is certainly not cheap, it’s priced to share the magic with as many people as possible.
We should all be thankful that we can just buy this and have it arrive in a few days.
If we don’t have good content, there’s no point to having a world-class system. And in the AV world, good quality sources are ceasing to exist.

Thank you for the kind words The emails we have had have been fun

I am glad more people are having the same fun I have had with this. Even after 10 months now I still sit down to watch something and go "Wow" at some point.

Yes, I have been asked about modding a Kscape. I am pretty busy making ATVXs right now, but, I should be ready to play with new things in Jan and I will look over KScape.

One side note to everyone. I have been seeing that some 48G HDMI cables are wonky with some devices. Not all. Its combos. Its odd. So far the ATVX is doing well with everything, but, I could see where its possible for some 48G cable to not work well with it. i think 18G devices are best paired with 18G cables not the 48G cables. Just be aware that going to a 48G cable *might* create issues. BUT I also know from experence they can also look better then a 18G cable. SO. Its a weird situation.

 

[Xymox]

A nice environment for the AppleTV X. Outlined in white box. The ATVX is fed from a SoTM switch just for it. It has its own linear. That is fed Single Mode fiber to isolate it from grounds and stuff. The SoTM is fed a external 10Mhz clock from the CH T1. The Ethernet to the ATVX is WW top platinum. Power cord to the ATVX and Linear for SoTM are Kubala-Sonza realization. The HDMI is WW 48G Platinum to the Datasat and then a 3M to the Sony VPL-GTZ380. The L/R from the Datasat go down to the CH L10 dual monos and up to M10s for tri amping to the YG Sonja XVs. All Kubala-Sonza Realization.

 

[Zeotrope]

Do you recommend keeping the ATVX on 24-7? I.e., not just the power supply, but the ATV as well?

On another note:
That Audioquest record cleaning brush has to go! Ramar Berlin.
And enclosing the YG Acoustics towers… - don’t think that’s a good idea.

 

[Xymox]

Do you recommend keeping the ATVX on 24-7? I.e., not just the power supply, but the ATV as well?

On another note:
That Audioquest record cleaning brush has to go! Ramar Berlin.
And enclosing the YG Acoustics towers… - don’t think that’s a good idea.

100% leave it on 24/7. The recommended settings turn off the screen saver and disable sleep. This has several advantages. The sleep and power on has a long history of having weird issues and bugs. Its also clumsy. During streaming the ATVX draws 120ma @ 14.1V = or 1.6W, when just on and not streaming it draws 70ma and so 1W. Thats $0.00013 per hour assuming the avg 13.72 cents per kilowatthour (kWh) in the US rate. So it would cost $1.13 per year. Of course the linear is not 100% effecient, so it might cost $1.50/year. $3/year if it was streaming 24/7. The AppleTV should not have a power saver as its just pointless IMHO.

All the stuff inside gets thermally stable if its on 24/7. The voltages all become very stable. Chips and clock chips all settle into a stable level. It becomes very stable if left on 24/7. No turn on drift of values caused by thermal warm up.

The main advantage is burn-in. Yes the ATVX burns in.

There are also deep technical reasons why leaving it on 24/7 is good. Thermal expansion/contraction caused by things warming up each time its turned on contributes to a shorter life in electronics. While this is usually only a contributing factor out at 30 years, its still better to leave on 24/7.

Leaving it on and not in screensaver is cool because its immd ready to use. Instant use. I often pause something and come back sometimes days later and just instantly unpause.

The YG you see is one of 4 the rear channels. There are also YG bolted to the ceiling for the ATMOS height channels. The cubby its in was actually engineered for it specifically. BUT YES. Speakers should ideally be in a free field IMHO. The front of the room is a bit more roomy..

Of course a screen drops and the window has a light tight shade that closes.

The Audio Quest cleaner works fine, hehehe.. Its vintage There is even a Zerostat.. Plus there is a KLAudio cleaner as needed. Plus some vintage fun other devices.. The Audionet amps drive the YG sides/rears and 4 height channels. A Taiko Extreme and a lot of stuff not shown in the pics for networking insanity. Of course power is a whole other pic, hahaha...

 

[Zeotrope]

WOW! This system is Stunning! This system deserves multiple threads on this forum. It may be the most impressive system here!

The Taiko Extreme is incredible. I have barely listened to vinyl since installing it.