Are low-priced cables a scam?
- Thread starter Lee
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Well, since you asked!
We had a listening panel, today. Not important why, but what is important is we needed some "normal" USB cables. You know, power and ground leads, along with the 2 that carry the data.
Unfortunately, they all sounded vastly different. Made getting a handle on whether what we were listening to was any good or not.
So............
Look for impedance measurements, later tonight, in the Tech Talk section.
(No, I will not name brands, regardless of how they measure. The point is to show whether or not anyone knows how to make 90R cable. Not promote their brand, or trash them. I have no idea how they will look, so we will all find out, round about the same time.)
We had a listening panel, today. Not important why, but what is important is we needed some "normal" USB cables. You know, power and ground leads, along with the 2 that carry the data.
Unfortunately, they all sounded vastly different. Made getting a handle on whether what we were listening to was any good or not.
So............
Look for impedance measurements, later tonight, in the Tech Talk section.
(No, I will not name brands, regardless of how they measure. The point is to show whether or not anyone knows how to make 90R cable. Not promote their brand, or trash them. I have no idea how they will look, so we will all find out, round about the same time.)
Only poor health keeps me from marketing my, "Cheap cable." Then again, with the trouble making them (no help from bulk wire company) l would want $200, per pair at least. Mark up would make the $400. Maybe they are not so cheap. The thing is they are the best I have heard anywhere in any system. Their construction is contrary to common sense. Just like the preamp I use, having necessary cooling fins, is contrary to common thought. The fact is, combined, all parts of my system could not be more convincing. Impedance and capacitance be damned, it works!
As I have over the years followed the upgrade path on cables,that all came to a end when I started using cable snap ferrites on all my cables. It doesn't matter if the cable costs 3K,500, or 20.00 they all benifit. Cable types also don't matter, IC's,speaker,PC's,digital,all improve in clarity,lifting many so called veils and letting the music come through.
So would cheap cables be as good? I still use so called expensive cables as my root on my source,speakers,amps,digital,but after that, I think it doesn't matter and after all the others are paid for and I don't see the need to sell them,when they are in the chain of "excellent sound".
So would cheap cables be as good? I still use so called expensive cables as my root on my source,speakers,amps,digital,but after that, I think it doesn't matter and after all the others are paid for and I don't see the need to sell them,when they are in the chain of "excellent sound".
I believe in many cases the buyer genuinely believes that the new cable A they just purchased sounds better/different to cable B they have been using regardless of the cost. Sometime back I conducted my own tests in relation to this subject, a number of musically educated friends were asked to give their opinions in written form on various modifications to my system with a number of set parameters that were a constant through all tests and changes.
These were done in a blind manner so as no one other than myself actually knew what was or wasn't changed on the system before the next listening test began, the overall results were quite interesting to say the least. On a number of the tests I actually made no changes at all but just reconnected the same cable into the same location after removing. In some instances I just replaced the particular cables with the exact same brand model ect.
My overall impresssion of the tests were that if the subjects believed a change had been made they recorded a comment to match their perception both good and bad, I had previously gone through the overall changes on the systems cabeling previously and recorded my own comments after extensive listening.
To me in my system the fully balanced BDC cables along with the matching speaker cables provided the best overall sound quality about $5K all up for the four sets, the test panel results were so divided as to be meaningless even when no actual cabel changes had been made or simply swapping for the exact same cable!
My conclusion forget about bragging rights if someting sounds better or different to suit your tastes in your system and this what you want and can afford by all means knock yourself out, top end HIFI is a very personal thing and once you start the climb you very soon reach the point of diminishing return on investment. I have been interested in HIFI seriously since I was 8 years old making my first set of speakers with Coral drivers the first of many. Over the years and many systems I have been questioned on the money involved that I have invested in my hobby.
My answer to this is if you have $10 ears buy a $10 system I just happen to think mine are worth a little more! It never ceases to amaze me the endless variety of top end equipment out there and the different trains of thought as to how to reach the "Holy Grail" of the ultimate system? I don't believe it exists as we are all different and interperate sound quality individually hence the different brands and concepts but thats just what makes this hobby so interesting! My 2 cents.
These were done in a blind manner so as no one other than myself actually knew what was or wasn't changed on the system before the next listening test began, the overall results were quite interesting to say the least. On a number of the tests I actually made no changes at all but just reconnected the same cable into the same location after removing. In some instances I just replaced the particular cables with the exact same brand model ect.
My overall impresssion of the tests were that if the subjects believed a change had been made they recorded a comment to match their perception both good and bad, I had previously gone through the overall changes on the systems cabeling previously and recorded my own comments after extensive listening.
To me in my system the fully balanced BDC cables along with the matching speaker cables provided the best overall sound quality about $5K all up for the four sets, the test panel results were so divided as to be meaningless even when no actual cabel changes had been made or simply swapping for the exact same cable!
My conclusion forget about bragging rights if someting sounds better or different to suit your tastes in your system and this what you want and can afford by all means knock yourself out, top end HIFI is a very personal thing and once you start the climb you very soon reach the point of diminishing return on investment. I have been interested in HIFI seriously since I was 8 years old making my first set of speakers with Coral drivers the first of many. Over the years and many systems I have been questioned on the money involved that I have invested in my hobby.
My answer to this is if you have $10 ears buy a $10 system I just happen to think mine are worth a little more! It never ceases to amaze me the endless variety of top end equipment out there and the different trains of thought as to how to reach the "Holy Grail" of the ultimate system? I don't believe it exists as we are all different and interperate sound quality individually hence the different brands and concepts but thats just what makes this hobby so interesting! My 2 cents.
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Yes, I know what you mean about "dam spelling"
...The "Holy Grail" does exist: my experience over decades has shown that as a system evolves to be "better" -- in my language, has less weaknesses -- that the sound of a particular recording gravitates to a particular quality irrespective of what equipment is being used to play it, the quality of the original recording and performance, which is something fixed and largely invioble. Many listenings on different systems, in different states of tune bring more and more elements of the "true" quality to light, so the goal of reproducing this in a pristine way as possible is still a very valid enterprise.
Frank
No you gave them instructions to choose A or B and didn't tell them there was an alternative. So they followed your instructions to a tee. You didn't trick them; you mislead them. Why don't you tell them they have three options and then repeat your exp. and determine the outcome. Sure it won't be repeatable.
I have a pair of these cables for testing purposes, they lack a tad of low freq resolution and produce 3/4 of the soundstage that my Siltech FTM4 Gold has - but at their cost (10% of the Siltech used price) they are not bad.
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Shunyata Cables- help me understand this one- low-priced and great???
If I am understanding this correctly, Shunyata is doing something very unusual. I've always admired their cables, especially their speaker cables. The Aurora model of 2 years ago was astronomically expensive due to complex helix braiding that had to be done by hand. To be honest I've never heard or known anyone that had a private pair but in some salons (i.e. Goodwins) they sounded spectacular. Now Shunyata has announced a "new, revolutionary design. Yeah, yeah, we've heard that before. But the catch is, they say its not only better than anything they've ever done but the prices are actually "reasonable", whatever that means. So what's the story? Are their new Powersnake interconnects and speaker cables even better than their excellent uber-pried cables of the recent past? And how much are they? Are they truly affordable?
If this is true, they should be warned- they may be thrown out of the high-end over-priced cable club. Seriously, this one intrigues me. What's the story?
If I am understanding this correctly, Shunyata is doing something very unusual. I've always admired their cables, especially their speaker cables. The Aurora model of 2 years ago was astronomically expensive due to complex helix braiding that had to be done by hand. To be honest I've never heard or known anyone that had a private pair but in some salons (i.e. Goodwins) they sounded spectacular. Now Shunyata has announced a "new, revolutionary design. Yeah, yeah, we've heard that before. But the catch is, they say its not only better than anything they've ever done but the prices are actually "reasonable", whatever that means. So what's the story? Are their new Powersnake interconnects and speaker cables even better than their excellent uber-pried cables of the recent past? And how much are they? Are they truly affordable?
If this is true, they should be warned- they may be thrown out of the high-end over-priced cable club. Seriously, this one intrigues me. What's the story?
I am pleasantly surprised by their $99 power cords. Have not used them but that is the level of premium that gets past a lot of people crying foul .
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Myles in fact I gave no instructions, to the contrary I simply asked them to record their impressions not to make a choice on the various configurations good bad or otherwise. Many of the comments reflected this but the direction was very mixed amongst the group this was the interesting part of the whole exersize and probably just goes to explain that we don't percieve sound the same or we would all have biege systems........Yes ?
Hi
We have been debating a few interesting things lately.. One of them is about expectation bias .. This one about low priced cable as a scam ... Well if it is low price I don't see the scam.. ... We , audiophiles, are very used to the Laws of Diminishing Returns and we seem to be comfortable with the notion. Yet it seems to me that often it would serve our industry to blind test a few things once in a while... Oh! No ! Not the dreaded, stressful (for the audiophiles) Double Blind Test. A simple knowledge removed, kind fo testing, between friends. Not a an audiophile meet.. This one can be painfully humiliating ... Just between you and a few audiophile friends... I believe that if cable make such a profound difference in a system, a 30 K cable should be easily distinguishable from a $200 one? Reasonable assumption? I thought so ... Yet this is a test that most people on this board are likely to fail regardless of the system involved .. What should be the conclusion? That Low Priced Cables are a scam or the other way around that the true scam are the high priced ones ? I am just asking ...
We have been debating a few interesting things lately.. One of them is about expectation bias .. This one about low priced cable as a scam ... Well if it is low price I don't see the scam.. ... We , audiophiles, are very used to the Laws of Diminishing Returns and we seem to be comfortable with the notion. Yet it seems to me that often it would serve our industry to blind test a few things once in a while... Oh! No ! Not the dreaded, stressful (for the audiophiles) Double Blind Test. A simple knowledge removed, kind fo testing, between friends. Not a an audiophile meet.. This one can be painfully humiliating ... Just between you and a few audiophile friends... I believe that if cable make such a profound difference in a system, a 30 K cable should be easily distinguishable from a $200 one? Reasonable assumption? I thought so ...
Yet this is a test that most people on this board are likely to fail regardless of the system involved .. What should be the conclusion? That Low Priced Cables are a scam or the other way around that the true scam are the high priced ones ? I am just asking ...
True Frantz, but some lower price cables are also badly constructed and not fully reliable.
Me think that Best is to pick some good quality interconnects (or speaker wires) with solid connectors, and quality material (internal & external).
Good Value means Reliability and Performance. :b
Me think that Best is to pick some good quality interconnects (or speaker wires) with solid connectors, and quality material (internal & external).
Good Value means Reliability and Performance. :b
That's good to hear. I have a pair of Anti Cables arriving on Monday. I've been using Audioquest Type 4 with my Vandersteen 2ce Sig II's, and am curious to hear some differences. I'd been considering a full round of cable auditions in the $5-600 range, but this came up for sale used on Audiogon for $85 for a 6 foot pair bi-wired shotgun, so I figured it'd be worth trying.
I'll be happy if I like it enough to decide to pocket the cash and call it quits. Especially since I'll probably be trading out the speakers for something else next year. It'd be one less thing to take a loss on.
I still scratch my head at people who review power cords as if they were reviewing a preamp or power amp. They talk about the bass, midrange, and highs the PC has. They talk about the how the PC soundstages. The PC is not a preamp or power amp. It has no gain. Here in the U.S., It’s simply transferring 120v/60 Hz from your wall to your electronics. That’s it. No magic here. Many PCs have oversized IEC connectors and they won’t plug in firmly into your preamp or power amp which leaves a path for RFI and EMI to enter in through the gap. If I have to prop up a PC to try and get it to hang straight into the gear so it doesn’t try and pull itself out of the IEC connector due to its own weight, you can have it.
I have said it before and I will say it again, nowhere in the high-end is snake-oil more prevalent than in the high-end cable market. Anybody can be in the cable business. To my knowledge, there isn’t a single high-end cable company that actually manufactures its own wire. Everybody buys from actual companies who manufacture wire and then they do the terminations. So order up some wire, buy some mesh to cover the cables to make them look high-end, terminate the wires with high-end connectors, and bingo, you are in the cable business. Once you figure out who you want to source your wire from, the next most important step is to hire someone who knows how to market to audiophiles and can write great ad copy.
Here are some question to ponder: How many cable companies actually have an electrical engineer who works for them? How many cable companies have technicians who are solder certified to any J-Standard who terminate their cables for them vice some housewife doing piece work at home while she is watching soap operas? Like I said, anyone can be in the cable business. Marketing is king. Salesmanship is king. Bling is King.
I have said it before and I will say it again, nowhere in the high-end is snake-oil more prevalent than in the high-end cable market. Anybody can be in the cable business. To my knowledge, there isn’t a single high-end cable company that actually manufactures its own wire. Everybody buys from actual companies who manufacture wire and then they do the terminations. So order up some wire, buy some mesh to cover the cables to make them look high-end, terminate the wires with high-end connectors, and bingo, you are in the cable business. Once you figure out who you want to source your wire from, the next most important step is to hire someone who knows how to market to audiophiles and can write great ad copy.
Here are some question to ponder: How many cable companies actually have an electrical engineer who works for them? How many cable companies have technicians who are solder certified to any J-Standard who terminate their cables for them vice some housewife doing piece work at home while she is watching soap operas? Like I said, anyone can be in the cable business. Marketing is king. Salesmanship is king. Bling is King.
Mark, I'm with ya. :b
* By the way, where's Frank?
... He might have an even more illuminating opinion on the subject.
Keith, I do agree that the purity of the copper plays a beneficial role
in the overall sound quality. A la Kimber Kable, and Nordost for example.
** Is copper still expensive?
...A while ago, in Canada, people were on a prowl to steal it from electrical power lines
and electrical power transformers. Some died doing it!
You guys had some similar incidents in the States?
* By the way, where's Frank?
... He might have an even more illuminating opinion on the subject.
Keith, I do agree that the purity of the copper plays a beneficial role
in the overall sound quality. A la Kimber Kable, and Nordost for example.
** Is copper still expensive?
...A while ago, in Canada, people were on a prowl to steal it from electrical power lines
and electrical power transformers. Some died doing it!
You guys had some similar incidents in the States?
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After years of cable chasing,I have now come to the conclusion that almost any cable can produce incredible clarity. The trick is to know how to get that clarity. I no longer upgrade cables and listen to the precision in steps at some price point. Funny how that is but everybody has to make a living. I got off that bandwagon and I'm glad I did.
Not a fair comparison. I haven’t heard of any electronics companies that pretended to manufacture their own transistors. But electronics companies have to have much higher levels of expertise in order to design and manufacture electronics. You actually need someone who is a circuit designer. Not so for cables.
I don’t mean to infer that there aren’t some truly good cable companies in the world. I primarily use MIT products and I’m happy with them. I think Bruce Brisson is one of the few in the field who really knows something.
As for where you source your copper, silver, gold, etc., everybody needs a marketing angle to set them apart from the competition. Hitachi is the preferred source for high-purity copper by those whose livelihoods depend on manufacturing high quality electrical items made from copper.
I don’t mean to infer that there aren’t some truly good cable companies in the world. I primarily use MIT products and I’m happy with them. I think Bruce Brisson is one of the few in the field who really knows something.
As for where you source your copper, silver, gold, etc., everybody needs a marketing angle to set them apart from the competition. Hitachi is the preferred source for high-purity copper by those whose livelihoods depend on manufacturing high quality electrical items made from copper.
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