Audiophile Fundamentalism

[JackD201]

W

 

[Jinjuku]

So why can't Lake/BSS etc be used in a consumer setup? I'm a consumer and I have the Berhinger DCX 2496 doing some management. It wasn't get it out of the box and go but it wasn't rocket science either.

 

[JackD201]

Where in your signal path is your DCX? Loop? Between Pre and Power? Are they being fed a consumer analog signal or SPDIF signal?

Ultimately it is a headroom vs noisefloor issue when mixing pro (headroom) and consumer (noise floor). This is what I was saying about the differences in emphasis. Venues are different so standards are different. Public venues are noisy, pro gear needs to be able to play cleanly above the natural floor. Domestic environments are not as noisy the emphasis is on clean LOW level signals with nominal SPL between 60dB and 80dB. Levels likely to literally BE the noise floor of a public venue.

If you are using consumer amps and running these direct from the DCX, how much output gain did you need to knock off considering the vast majority of consumer amps do not provide variable input sensitivity selection?

Can the Gain Structuring be made to work? Sure but the structure will likely be a compromised one. One noisy (inherent or overdriven) component in the chain can muck you. Selection must be done very carefully.

If you are using a consumer digital source via SPDIF and pro amps, you don't need to do anything at all. If you are using the analog inputs you'll need a signal booster. If you find a quiet, transparent unit, let me know. I have need of some.

 

[Jinjuku]

The DCX is fed AES-EBU from an EMU 1212M PCIe Pro Audio Card. It's output is XLR into XLR input on the amps. Unity gain isn't a problem. If the DCX sees a single ended connection it makes an internal configuration change on the fly and comes down 6dB.

Don Keele of JBL fame uses the DCX 2496 for his CBT Line Array (Awesome sounding system) as example.

There is a TON of consumer gear when you go up the food chain with XLR: Benchmark, Brytson, Ayre, Pass, Parasound, Odyssey, Classe the list goes on. On the Parasound I've owned its had variable gain.

What are you considering 'Consumer'. I know of shops that do installation for consumer setups.

Also I think you are incorrect with the paint brush you are choosing to use and trying to tie it to the noise floor of a live venue and pro gear. It sounds like you are stereo typing. This stuff is used in mixing studios for correction and routing also.

You will have to try some items out. The Behringer is quiet for me. No perceptible noise floor that my measurement gear can pick out above that of the room. Anything you want to try is just a web site away with easy return policies.

 

[JackD201]

Dude, it's working for you and sincerely I'm glad it does. You are right. Choosing the right gear is essential I believe I said that. Still I don't get why you and the other guy think I'm trying to paint some kind of picture as if I had an agenda. If that's what you think go out and say it. I'm telling you I have none. FACT is the reference voltages are widely different and that has consequences. If you do not believe me fine. If you want an answer from someone you will believe ask the manufacturers the pros and cons. I'm out.

 

[Jinjuku]

Dude, it's working for you and sincerely I'm glad it does. You are right. Choosing the right gear is essential I believe I said that. Still I don't get why you and the other guy think I'm trying to paint some kind of picture as if I had an agenda. If that's what you think go out and say it. I'm telling you I have none. FACT is the reference voltages are widely different and that has consequences. If you do not believe me fine. If you want an answer from someone you will believe ask the manufacturers the pros and cons. I'm out.

One of my first jobs was installing edit suites for both Video and Audio. I came in at the time that everything was transitioning from LE to NLE. We did a few higher end consumer installs (primarily for good sized handful of Cleveland Cavaliers).

I still don't know how an XLR or RCA, a Speaker management system, a processor etc knows it's in a consumer or business environment. We were the guys paid to figure it all out. We did everything from Crestron to Extron, AMX(Panja). It all worked equally well for home or professional installs. Did a lot of Hafler for both also. Speakers are where there are much clearer lines of demarcation. You don't need a line array capable of 105dB 80 foot out in a house

I agree there are signal level differences and I have to ask when used in a consumer environment: So What? We chose gear accordingly. Again it was what we were paid to do. You said I should contact the manufactures. We didn't need to: We WERE the pro's.

My DCX has Analog to Analog noise floor of 112dB, channel X-talk -70dB. And that's for entry level gear. I can use it balanced or single ended because it has enough gain structure to do either. It is what it is. Why are you so stuck on this non-problem?

 

[Jinjuku]

To give a concrete example helped on an install about a year and a half ago: a Denon DN500AV feeding a Audyssey Pro then out to 9 channels of Parasound to ML Montis/EFX for 7.2 with two SVS subs.

Christie PJ to a ~300" screen

All in a consumer house hold. The room was custom built. I swear a Sony boom box would have sounded great in that room

Strictly speaking it was a mix of commercial (Denon and even the Audyssey Pro could lean either way), and consumer (Parasound, ML, SVS). I didn't architect this, I was just help mind you. But they took care in the component selection. That is all I am saying: This stuff isn't one or the other. It simply isn't.

If there is a signal problem it's the implementers/architects fault.

Pre/Amp/Audyssey were all mounted out of room in a rack with Crestron for control. Belden for the wiring FYI.

 

[microstrip]

Jinjuku,

IMHO we must separate AV multichannel systems and needs from two channel stereo - they are completely different products.

 

[Jinjuku]

Jinjuku,

IMHO we must separate AV multichannel systems and needs from two channel stereo - they are completely different products.

Ok. You have my attention and I am listening.

 

[JackD201]

One of my first jobs was installing edit suites for both Video and Audio. I came in at the time that everything was transitioning from LE to NLE. We did a few higher end consumer installs (primarily for good sized handful of Cleveland Cavaliers).

I still don't know how an XLR or RCA, a Speaker management system, a processor etc knows it's in a consumer or business environment. We were the guys paid to figure it all out. We did everything from Crestron to Extron, AMX(Panja). It all worked equally well for home or professional installs. Did a lot of Hafler for both also. Speakers are where there are much clearer lines of demarcation. You don't need a line array capable of 105dB 80 foot out in a house

I agree there are signal level differences and I have to ask when used in a consumer environment: So What? We chose gear accordingly. Again it was what we were paid to do. You said I should contact the manufactures. We didn't need to: We WERE the pro's.

My DCX has Analog to Analog noise floor of 112dB, channel X-talk -70dB. And that's for entry level gear. I can use it balanced or single ended because it has enough gain structure to do either. It is what it is. Why are you so stuck on this non-problem?

Dude, I was giving you an out man but you seem not to want to let this go. You see that signature below? That's the hobby business. We are part owners of the largest Media Network in our country. We do movies, produce and broadcast TV shows, have sound stages where we produce live musical entertainment, game shows, have sets for sitcoms and dramas, recording suites, AVR suites, video and audio post suites, foley pits, radio stations. Do location live recordings too. I was involved in the architecture/workflow planning for the refitting from analog to digital audio recording and the move from destructive to non-destructive editing almost two decades ago. Maybe you saw the signature below and said to yourself, wow another dumb audiophile who thumbs his nose at professional stuff (which I never did mind you), lets tear him a new one. Sorry to burst your bubble buddy.

Your unit does -15/+15 you do realize it does this in digital domain prior to the output end and that going down from +10 to -4 in this manner shaves off around 5 bits don't you? It would be a non issue if you simply swapped out the analog input and output stages which could be as simple as a few inexpensive op-amps and supplies to attain -4 spec. Well for you it's "good enough" and maybe it is FOR YOU subjectively. You could even do something as simple a band-aid as adding individual attenuators to adjust output for -4 between your unit and the consumer amps if they don't have built in attenuators like your Parasound did, a fixed pad even, so you need not sacrifice any of that -112dB as you shave bits while avoiding clipping distortion on the amp input side. No, you choose to just use the internal output controls. Based on your "good enough" standards, I would not hire you. You unknowingly dumbed down your own kit which was fine as spec'd. Congratulations.

None of this, NONE, would happen in an all +10 system. No needed modifications, no band aids, no performance sacrifices. None of this would be a problem if Behringer, Lake, et al would simply provide -4 options, fixed or switchable for use with analog sources on the inputs and amps on the outputs.

Look at your post #104 and do some fact checking. That post is telling.

 

[JackD201]

Jinjuku,

IMHO we must separate AV multichannel systems and needs from two channel stereo - they are completely different products.

As far as the context of the ongoing discussion, I disagree micro.

 

[Jinjuku]

Your unit does -15/+15 you do realize it does this in digital domain prior to the output end and that going down from +10 to -4 in this manner shaves off around 5 bits don't you? It would be a non issue if you simply swapped out the analog input and output stages which could be as simple as a few inexpensive op-amps and supplies to attain -4 spec. Well for you it's "good enough" and maybe it is FOR YOU subjectively. You could even do something as simple a band-aid as adding individual attenuators to adjust output for -4 between your unit and the consumer amps if they don't have built in attenuators like your Parasound did, a fixed pad even, so you need not sacrifice any of that -112dB as you shave bits while avoiding clipping distortion on the amp input side. No, you choose to just use the internal output controls. Based on your "good enough" standards, I would not hire you. You unknowingly dumbed down your own kit which was fine as spec'd. Congratulations.

None of this, NONE, would happen in an all +10 system. No needed modifications, no band aids, no performance sacrifices. None of this would be a problem if Behringer, Lake, et al would simply provide -4 options, fixed or switchable for use with analog sources on the inputs and amps on the outputs.

Look at your post #104 and do some fact checking. That post is telling.

You seem a little bit confused. My system and the one I was brought in on to help install with was +10 all the way throughout. Not sure how your attack, other than the fact the Behringer does make an adjustment when a single ended source is connected, has any merit.

I simply pointed out that it does. Given your lack of reading comprehension I wouldn't take a job you offered. I've worked for one or two like you and it's been enough. I run a software dev shop now days.

My EMU 1212M also has +10 analog outs that go directly to +10 on my amp. That was a $185 card. Also has ADAT, AES/EBU, S/PDIF.

I'm still not the one stating that balanced I/O, that professional speaker management devices, is somehow not usable in the consumer space.

As a matter of fact I am trawling through any installation that I have done for friend or favor in the past 10 years where the system wasn't unitized throughout to either single ended or balanced I/O. With the dearth of products out there I have yet to have to compromise.

Why would Lab Gruppen, Behringer, BSS, Xilica, AKG, etc have to provide -4 options? It's NOT needed to put together a really killer system. From Source, to Pre, to Processor to Amp, Plenty of choices. Why don't more manufacturers put +10 outputs on?

Heck even Emotiva puts Balanced I/O on their $499 DC-1 DAC.

 

[JackD201]

This was a discussion on mixing +10 with -4. While you segue to all +10. Cute way of agreeing with me while saving face. I'm the one with reading comprehension problems? Sure.

Again get your gain structure basics right. A connector does NOT make a -4 a +10 and vice versa. They are what they are. You want a -4 use a -4 stage, you want a +10 use a +10 stage. You want to mix them, you do workarounds via signal boosting via an external stage or transformer from analog source or attenuation on the output signal. The 6dB drop for balanced to signal ended is also not a result of your processor making "automatic" internal adjustments. You are simply using one positive instead of two. Besides you need to be dropping approximately 10dB not just 6 to avoid clipping. You could be a great software developer, stick to that if you still don't or refuse understand this.

"Killer" can be achieved, beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all.

Don't worry about having to refuse the job, it wouldn't have been offered.

 

[microstrip]

Ok. You have my attention and I am listening.

The stereo experience, due to the intrinsic technical limitations of the system, is strongly enhanced by a controlled use and tuning of the "small differences". The palette given by professional equipment is not large and systematic enough to create great audiophile systems for consumers. AV multichannel systems carry much more spatial information, and are much more predictable - here the professional units can easily outperform consumer units.

As F. Toole once wrote, stereo is an individual experience. Many people share his opinion and regret that the music industry did not fully endorse multichannel, going on supporting the two channel format. Just my opinions, YMMV.

 

[Jinjuku]

This was a discussion on mixing +10 with -4. While you segue to all +10. Cute way of agreeing with me while saving face. I'm the one with reading comprehension problems? Sure.

No this was a discussion about how you are convinced that Pro-gear some how has a higher noise floor. Remember you are the one that brought up the ambient noise floor of a live venue vs the home and try to in some ignorant fashion relate that to 'noisier' gear.

I shudder to think how many setups of yours I would have to un-knot. I've certainly had jobs cleaning up after management. That's actually what convinced me to hang my own shingle. Had one boss run the business into the ground. Took him 18 months after I left. I get a call from a head hunter years later. It's my form boss looking for a job.

This was a discussion about how Pro-gear somehow isn't 'consumer rated' with it's +10dBu rating.

A connector does NOT make a -4 a +10 and vice versa.

[sarcasm]No WAY! Really? Wow and all this time I had it wrong [/sarcasm] Now you are just laughable. Find a post where I said a connector makes a signal rating. Crown on the XLS drive core has RCA. Guess what: It's not -4.

Typically TRS, XLR, Balanced Phoenix connectors are +10. No one ever said they would be. You simply have to know the gear.

I'm not the one that ever mentioned signal format mixing, bump boxes, pads, op-amps etc... Someone that thinks hacks are somehow the norm did.

 

[Jinjuku]

The 6dB drop for balanced to signal ended is also not a result of your processor making "automatic" internal adjustments. You are simply using one positive instead of two. Besides you need to be dropping approximately 10dB not just 6 to avoid clipping.

Why are you stuck on this? The DCX I have will drop 6dB with a single ended connection. I'm not advocating it. I'm the messenger. If one needed to drive -4 with it you could. It has enough gain structure for most applications that would require that. Not for critical listening IMO.

I'm not running it that way and I wouldn't put it into someones setup and use it that way. Reading comprehension is not your strong suite.

But I do understand your desire to keep throwing this particular red herring based on all the other misnomers you have been tossing about. Keep up the smoke screen.

 

[Jinjuku]

The stereo experience, due to the intrinsic technical limitations of the system, is strongly enhanced by a controlled use and tuning of the "small differences". The palette given by professional equipment is not large and systematic enough to create great audiophile systems for consumers. AV multichannel systems carry much more spatial information, and are much more predictable - here the professional units can easily outperform consumer units.

As F. Toole once wrote, stereo is an individual experience. Many people share his opinion and regret that the music industry did not fully endorse multichannel, going on supporting the two channel format. Just my opinions, YMMV.

Are there any topical examples of the limited palette? I see a lot of the pro gear as having the training wheels knocked off vs strictly consumer gear. Not a good or bad thing depending on the user.

 

[Habanero Monk]

The 6dB drop for balanced to signal ended is also not a result of your processor making "automatic" internal adjustments. You are simply using one positive instead of two. Besides you need to be dropping approximately 10dB not just 6 to avoid clipping

Your unit does -15/+15 you do realize it does this in digital domain prior to the output end and that going down from +10 to -4 in this manner shaves off around 5 bits don't you?

So is the DCX doing this in the analog or digital domain?

On one hand you are saying it does it in the digital domain (so automatic internal adjustment) but you also said it's single ended operation is not a result of automatic internal adjustment.

So is it simply less voltage output or are 5 bits being shaved off?

 

[JackD201]

No this was a discussion about how you are convinced that Pro-gear some how has a higher noise floor. Remember you are the one that brought up the ambient noise floor of a live venue vs the home and try to in some ignorant fashion relate that to 'noisier' gear.

I shudder to think how many setups of yours I would have to un-knot. I've certainly had jobs cleaning up after management. That's actually what convinced me to hang my own shingle. Had one boss run the business into the ground. Took him 18 months after I left. I get a call from a head hunter years later. It's my form boss looking for a job.

This was a discussion about how Pro-gear somehow isn't 'consumer rated' with it's +10dBu rating.



[sarcasm]No WAY! Really? Wow and all this time I had it wrong [/sarcasm] Now you are just laughable. Find a post where I said a connector makes a signal rating. Crown on the XLS drive core has RCA. Guess what: It's not -4.

Typically TRS, XLR, Balanced Phoenix connectors are +10. No one ever said they would be. You simply have to know the gear.

I'm not the one that ever mentioned signal format mixing, bump boxes, pads, op-amps etc... Someone that thinks hacks are somehow the norm did.

Mr. Reading Comprehension, I said the VENUES, particularly live venues have a higher noise floor NOT the gear. Read back. That's where the headroom issue comes in. Of course the ability for less loss from transmission line effects is also a reason the pro industry with higher nominal output voltage. My premise was simple. The Pro industry needs headroom, the Consumer industry does not need it as much because homes are quieter, the emphasis being on low level signal purity not brute power per se. The neighbors would kill you. THAT is where this started and YOU asked why I said you couldn't couldn't mix pro gear with consumer. ANOTHER thing I DID NOT SAY. I said it COULD (Obviously because many people have done it) but you would have to work harder on the gain structure, work you need to do much less of if you stayed +10 or -4 throughout.

You proceed to argue that you have done it, naming a specific brand of amp and other brands of amps, then retract by saying the examples you gave were of systems all +10. You also point out that the the DCX converts down by 6dB when you go single ended. I said it does not convert anything, you are just using 1 of the 2 hot leads. This will happen wether it is +10 or -4. In other words, You still have not gone down from +10 to -4. You're still short 4dB since the approximate drop in nominal signal from +10 to -4 is 10 not 6. In other words again. My SUSPICION is you were able to get a better but not ideal matching output by going single ended but you still got it to match up by shaving bits from your DSP OR lost headroom by essentially peak limiting output by increasing the input voltage required for a consumer amp to be run full power. Earlier in the thread a manufacturer who makes balanced differential gear simply states. Consumer amps are not made to be fed +10. What more do you want?

NEWS FLASH Pro Gear is not consumer rated with it's 10dBu rating. It is not. Period. Take it up with the AES/EBU. CE rating is -4. That's it. You or I or anybody's emotions have zip to do with that. It is not a knock on pro gear. It simply is NOT and never was. It is what it is and it took thousands of man hours from the pro industry and the consumer industry to get together and decide and decide what standards to communally adopt within their own separate industries. When they did that became the standard. Dude you know, it's not exactly like there isn't pro gear that doesn't provide gain stages in their boxes switchable on the front panels precisely so you can use them with consumer gear. The ones that feel the need for it provide it and not because it would make some consumer standard zealot happy, it's to make use EASY and consequently the chance of better results all around for both the home and professional user. Reading down to your later posts you said you wouldn't do it that way either (mix). Halleluja. If you hadn't been putting words in my mouth we wouldn't even have argued at all!

Tell you what. Scan a pic of your users manual that says it will convert to -4 as you have claimed it does. Best yet show me that the DCX in fact has -4 modules for the unit to switch to at all. In all sincerity, if it can do this I will consider it for a restaurant project I'm doing for friends who already have multichannel consumer amps on hand.

This is a summary of past posts, we have officially come running in circles. The past posts are here for all to see.

Let the others judge who the fundamentalist are and who aren't.

 

[JackD201]

So is the DCX doing this in the analog or digital domain?

On one hand you are saying it does it in the digital domain (so automatic internal adjustment) but you also said it's single ended operation is not a result of automatic internal adjustment.

So is it simply less voltage output or are 5 bits being shaved off?

From what I have gathered gain reduction is done in the digital domain that would suggest ~5bits shaved off as opposed to running unity gain all bits intact and using output devices with lower voltage. I think we can agree that that is a simpler, more economical and more rational engineering choice. A mod would cost only a few hundred bucks, maybe less than that if someone did it themselves.

If I see the manual and it says the unit can sense wether the receiving device is single ended I'd actually be rather engulfed by a sense of "Wow Cool!"-ness. Bear in mind I've used these units. I've never seen that.

View attachment 16805

All XLR. The 6dB drop just a matter of going from 2 hot one ground to 1 hot one ground to TRS unbalanced or RCA, not an internal function at all. No need for internal to do that. Wow-coolness would come from what are Uli's guys smokin'?