Audiophiles mostly aren’t music fans

[RogerD]

The point of this audiophile journey is to replicate the musical event, with realism, emotion, excitement, and joy. Everybody hopes to achieve some level of joy from their system. If I spent a lifetime worried about just sound I'd black out my TV and listen to the BS all day long. I listen to music instead....enjoy.

 

[asiufy]

It's absurd and preposterous to recommend vintage gear just because he had one bad experience with gear that he didn't like.
There's a plethora of brands and products out there, of varied topologies, that will surely please the music lover that wants a little quality in their music playback.
When I got into high-end audio, I already had thousands of LPs and CDs, none of which could be considered "audiophile", but up to that point, had only used vintage gear, because that's what was readily available. I still blame myself for not seeking better gear sooner.
I know many stories of folks who wanted to get into high-end audio, and end up doing it via the wrong brands/products, only to leave the hobby in disgusting, with the same reaction as the OP. It's unfortunately quite common.

 

[LenWhite]

Audiophiles are in love with sound. Music fans are in love with music.

It’s not the same. Not even close.

And I am a music fan. Hands down. And proud.

I'm paraphrasing, but one of the best descriptions of the difference between live and recorded playback IMO was written in this Sarjan Ebaen review of the Borresen 02:

Of course the live experience has many qualities a HiFi can't replicate fully if at all. Being a carbon copy isn't HiFi's, but a fax machine's job. Playback is an altogether different experience than going to a live gig. When setup carefully, playback in many ways is idealized. There's more raw resolution revealed from a very low noise floor. There's studio productions with spot microphones which can capture each performers most direct sound before a venue could diffuse it. There's more specific soundstage mapping with greater separation between performers. On these points really good audio systems can be undeniably superior to the real thing. Add that you get to hear music when you're in the mood; in the type you're in the mood for just then; in recordings where the musicians were in peak form.

 

[thedudeabides]

Another indicator is what I call "gear heads" who are continually upgrading their systems because the music just "doesn't sound right".

 

[NorthStar]

Audiophiles are in love with sound. Music fans are in love with music.

It’s not the same. Not even close.

And I am a music fan. Hands down. And proud.

for years I’ve had a pair of large advents, a marantz 2240b, a gold ring turntable, and adcom 555.

And it’s been great. Maybe cost me 1500 bucks in all.

I decided to step up and got a set of mordaunt short high end speakers, a classe amp, halo parasound phono preamp, and an avid turntable. TOTALLY broke the bank for me. Used it was a 10k investment.


And it was a huge mistake.

The good stuff sounds AMAZING. BUT, the average stuff sounds awful. Zero middle ground. That’s just dumb. Made me listening to only certain music. And I became searching for what didn’t sound like crap. The opposite of what I hoped.

I was so disappointed. I am selling all the new high end stuff and going right back with my old set up. A setup that makes 95% of my albums just kick ass. The high end stuff made like 15% of my collection listenable.

Apparently I am not an audiophile despite having played professional guitar all over the world. And recording in the best studios in the USA. And being a tone junky.

Eye opener.

Hi, and welcome. My name is Bob and I'm into the music.

Can you share some of the music you like?

I go first ...

 

[jeff1225]

It's absurd and preposterous to recommend vintage gear just because he had one bad experience with gear that he didn't like.
There's a plethora of brands and products out there, of varied topologies, that will surely please the music lover that wants a little quality in their music playback.
When I got into high-end audio, I already had thousands of LPs and CDs, none of which could be considered "audiophile", but up to that point, had only used vintage gear, because that's what was readily available. I still blame myself for not seeking better gear sooner.
I know many stories of folks who wanted to get into high-end audio, and end up doing it via the wrong brands/products, only to leave the hobby in disgusting, with the same reaction as the OP. It's unfortunately quite common.

Please name a modern turntable that can deliver the performance of a Garrard 401 for $1800. I really don't think its "absurd or preposterous" to recommend vintage gear when someone is looking for performance on a budget.

 

[Folsom]

It certainly isn’t when we know he likes that type of sound.

 

[gilles13]

Are Gilles Calipers being henked?
If yes, congrats to that. Excellent decision

No,I expect to send them to Henk at the end of the year.

 

[mulveling]

"Audiophile" and "Music Lover" totally don't have to be mutually exclusive. But certainly, putting together a high-end system that sounds great on material other than a few "audiophile fireworks recordings" can be difficult.

I believe that if you have trouble finding recordings which sound great on your system, then it's likely you have a significant system imbalance and/or system setup problem that's working HARD against anything other than the most pleasantly recorded simple & boring "audiophile" music. Once you get the gear synergy and setup right, you'll find LOADS of stuff that sounds amazing - 70s, 80s, 90s pop and rock, orchestral, heavy metal, new music, etc. But of course, it can be cost or time prohibitive to experiment by yourself. And rooms at shows are VERY hit or miss. A great dealer can be worth their weight of gold to aid in this pursuit, but they're rare. Having local audio buddies and groups can help out.

To be fair there's certainly a significant share of badly mastered/produced music out there. But you can find plenty of gems in unexpected places. Having fine vinyl & digital sources can double your chances towards finding a great sounding copy of any given album.

When I started out with 2ch in the 2000s, I have to admit I hit on a LOT of frustrations and bad sounding systems (comprised of exceedingly expensive gear) that sounded good only with "amazing" recordings, and terrible on everything else. Perhaps the gear from that era was just particularly bad - part of me thinks this might be the case. Things started turning around for my 2ch enjoyment when:

1. I discovered my love for the sound of Tannoy dual-concentric speakers - it's very important to identify speaker brands you gel with, early on
2. I got into tube amps - where in fact I got my start with restored 1960's vintage tube amps like the Heathkit W5 and Eico HF-87. The vintage tube amps certainly do sound wonderful with almost any decent recording, but you can find modern amps that will also do this PLUS give you loads more detail and soundstage.
3. I got into vinyl, and found that a lot of pop & rock albums which sounded terrible on CD now sounded AWESOME on vinyl
4. I moved into my current apartment with solid construction quality versus the shoebox of flimsy drywall and bouncy floors (yuck!)

 

[the sound of Tao]

"Audiophile" and "Music Lover" totally don't have to be mutually exclusive. But certainly, putting together a high-end system that sounds great on material other than a few "audiophile fireworks recordings" can be difficult.

I believe that if you have trouble finding recordings which sound great on your system, then it's likely you have a significant system imbalance and/or system setup problem that's working HARD against anything other than the most pleasantly recorded simple & boring "audiophile" music. Once you get the gear synergy and setup right, you'll find LOADS of stuff that sounds amazing - 70s, 80s, 90s pop and rock, orchestral, heavy metal, new music, etc. But of course, it can be cost or time prohibitive to experiment by yourself. And rooms at shows are VERY hit or miss. A great dealer can be worth their weight of gold to aid in this pursuit, but they're rare. Having local audio buddies and groups can help out.

To be fair there's certainly a significant share of badly mastered/produced music out there. But you can find plenty of gems in unexpected places. Having fine vinyl & digital sources can double your chances towards finding a great sounding copy of any given album.

When I started out with 2ch in the 2000s, I have to admit I hit on a LOT of frustrations and bad sounding systems (comprised of exceedingly expensive gear) that sounded good only with "amazing" recordings, and terrible on everything else. Perhaps the gear from that era was just particularly bad - part of me thinks this might be the case. Things started turning around for my 2ch enjoyment when:

1. I discovered my love for the sound of Tannoy dual-concentric speakers - it's very important to identify speaker brands you gel with, early on
2. I got into tube amps - where in fact I got my start with restored 1960's vintage tube amps like the Heathkit W5 and Eico HF-87. The vintage tube amps certainly do sound wonderful with almost any decent recording, but you can find modern amps that will also do this PLUS give you loads more detail and soundstage.
3. I got into vinyl, and found that a lot of pop & rock albums which sounded terrible on CD now sounded AWESOME on vinyl
4. I moved into my current apartment with solid construction quality versus the shoebox of flimsy drywall and bouncy floors (yuck!)

I was also thinking maybe Tannoy, Zu, Devore or Harbeth could be a better solution for a music lover with a love of the less faithfully recorded recordings. Definitely some valves in there as well. Not that they can’t do some level of natural or resolution or a kind of truthfulness but just that they seem to just have a bit more latitude and forgiveness... more like a way of focussing more on what is musical.

Most of us have some balance between the focus on music and sound and at times many of us have fallen for the trap of just chasing sound for some period but I think that is perhaps just a phase like audiophile adolescence (without the pimples and overactive sex glands) but probably relates to getting deeply stuck in a problem solving mode in system analysis.

Many of us start the journey with music and I believe hopefully end the journey that way as well and go full cycle. But given the age demographic of our lot talking about ending journeys with an audiophile is rather like saying Macbeth three times out aloud when entering a theatre.

 

[RogerD]

Agreed. It just blew me away how crappy most stuff sounds as you increase gear quality. Then you are chasing a sound aesthetic. Not musical one

Have you ever heard a properly set up system? You don’t need to spend a fortune either.
Btw your original system is not vintage...just saying...whatever floats your boat....there are plenty of members on the forum that have spent a lifetime in this hobby and the vast majority know good sound aka reproduced music.
I’m sorry that you spent 10k and are not happy. If you read many threads here on this forum, you might just be able to improve your system. Good luck.

 

[NorthStar]

The OP is a pro musicien; he knows best how sound systems reproduce his music recordings with satisfactory delivery.

Or unless like I he didn't listen to his music recordings from all the sound systems in the world...that'll be the day. ...And in all the rooms of the world.

* OP, are you into Classical Orchestral, Solo Piano, Cello, Classical Chamber, Jazz trios and quatros, saxophone, trumpet, Jazz guitar, Blues, Motown, Soul, New Age, Tango, Flamenco, Opera, World music?

 

[microstrip]

Audiophiles are in love with sound. Music fans are in love with music.

It’s not the same. Not even close.

And I am a music fan. Hands down. And proud.

for years I’ve had a pair of large advents, a marantz 2240b, a gold ring turntable, and adcom 555.

And it’s been great. Maybe cost me 1500 bucks in all.

I decided to step up and got a set of mordaunt short high end speakers, a classe amp, halo parasound phono preamp, and an avid turntable. TOTALLY broke the bank for me. Used it was a 10k investment.


And it was a huge mistake.

The good stuff sounds AMAZING. BUT, the average stuff sounds awful. Zero middle ground. That’s just dumb. Made me listening to only certain music. And I became searching for what didn’t sound like crap. The opposite of what I hoped.

I was so disappointed. I am selling all the new high end stuff and going right back with my old set up. A setup that makes 95% of my albums just kick ass. The high end stuff made like 15% of my collection listenable.

Apparently I am not an audiophile despite having played professional guitar all over the world. And recording in the best studios in the USA. And being a tone junky.

Eye opener.

Sorry to learn about your audio misadventures.

Audiophiles should have minimal knowledge about sound reproduction and the hobby practices before getting stuff. A system that makes 85% of our music collection unlistenable is a poor system, wrongly assembled. Assembling an high-end system needs expertise.

If we do not succeed in assembling a system that plays the music we love it is our fault, not of the equipment. Being a musician has nothing to do with sound reproduction - it is a completely different activity. IMHO in this hobby the questions should be asked before, not after ...

BTW AFAIK the great majority of WBF contributing members are music lovers, so I will say that in this forum statistically audiophiles are music lovers. It is what matters to me when posting here.

 

[asiufy]

Please name a modern turntable that can deliver the performance of a Garrard 401 for $1800. I really don't think its "absurd or preposterous" to recommend vintage gear when someone is looking for performance on a budget.

Performance is for nothing if it breaks if you look funny at it. If you just want to listen to music, and not waste time fiddling with the gear (which is what some audiophiles do), you just buy a new, good performance product.
Again, I've seen it often, people just want to listen to music, and the allure of the cheap "vintage performer" draws them in. The piece breaks within 2 days, then they have an expensive paper weight.
If you (and some other folks here) have the disposition to buy vintage gear and refurbish, I find it very interesting and valid. But where I find fault is trying to assume that what works for you will work for everybody else, specially someone who just want to play their records. Thus my comment.
BTW I've had Garrards, 301 and 401s. Not impressed. Of course, they were not refurbished or worked at, so I won't make comparisons or cite a comparable $1800 table.

 

[asiufy]

If we do not succeed in assembling a system that plays the music we love it is our fault, not of the equipment. Being a musician has nothing to do with sound reproduction - it is a completely different activity.

+1, agreed 100%!

 

[jeff1225]

Performance is for nothing if it breaks if you look funny at it. If you just want to listen to music, and not waste time fiddling with the gear (which is what some audiophiles do), you just buy a new, good performance product.
Again, I've seen it often, people just want to listen to music, and the allure of the cheap "vintage performer" draws them in. The piece breaks within 2 days, then they have an expensive paper weight.
If you (and some other folks here) have the disposition to buy vintage gear and refurbish, I find it very interesting and valid. But where I find fault is trying to assume that what works for you will work for everybody else, specially someone who just want to play their records. Thus my comment.
BTW I've had Garrards, 301 and 401s. Not impressed. Of course, they were not refurbished or worked at, so I won't make comparisons or cite a comparable $1800 table.

A lot of words to admit that there is no $1800 turntable that can deliver the musical enjoyment of a Garrard 401.

 

[NorthStar]

There's no generalisation in our preferred music listening style.
Some music recordings sound bad, perhaps less bad if some judicious manipulation is applied...Room EQ & all. No two systems sound the same, no two guitars have the same tones.

More expensive gear doesn't necessarily equates to better music sound reproduction, but it sure can help. Willie Nelson plays a broken guitar with a big hole in it, it sounds very good to me.

The musical instruments we play because we like their overall tone is very similar to the hi-fi sound systems we play and build.
Some guitar players use a different guitar onstage for each song.

In my music collection...LPs & CDs for example, I have plenty that sound painful.
But that collection is different than anyone's music collection, it's my own.
And it started in the sixties. No two people have the same music evolution.

There's no generalisation in our preferred music listening journey.

If it wouldn't be for the music love there wouldn't be sound systems of all flavors and brackets.

 

[christoph]

No,I expect to send them to Henk at the end of the year.

Nice.
Please say hi to Henk from me.
Are you having your Calipers refurbished or are you upgrading to Duetta or higher?

 

[gilles13]

I am going to keep the caliper as they are in the living room with a lot of furniture and it would be difficult to install bigger loudspeakers.

 

[JackD201]

Another indicator is what I call "gear heads" who are continually upgrading their systems because the music just "doesn't sound right".

Maybe these guys just haven't been able to get what they are after or are perhaps even, still trying to figure out exactly what it is they want. It seems unfair to simply write them off as people who are just in for, shall we say, retail therapy. The latter don't last very long in this hobby.

Now if someone just keeps swapping out gear hoping that will solve all their problems, that is an entirely different story. These guys would be best served by taking the time to learn how to get the most out of what they already have. Given the information resources we have literally at our fingertips today, there really is no excuse for not making the effort to learn.

It is akin to one going to a "high end" boutique, blow a wad of cash and assume the women are going to fall at your feet. No man, that big green shirt with those skinny brown pants make you look like a shrub. I don't care if they are expensive. LOL