And that is OK, IMO. Personally, I am both a gear head AND a music lover...in no particular order...more like it goes in waves. Being a scientist, I am naturally inclined to like the technical side of audio...I am naturally attracted to understanding the how's and why's of things. However, I am drawn to the particular hobby because I always loved listening to music as it relaxes me and also provides mental lubricant for my thought processes (state dependent learning? Could be...). However, I don't think it is good when these kinds of things become obsessions...obsessions are not healthy...
Audiophiles mostly aren’t music fans
- Thread starter AAamazing
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Well, my room hosts Soundlab's A1Px and Wilson XLFs and audio friends who listen to both have remarked the astonishing similitude in blending along the audio spectrum of both speakers - we also can't hear the XLF drivers as they say. As far as I know Steve does not hear the drives in his X2 and the Alexia or the Aida did not suffer from this problem in my room. I remember I complained about it in the original Magico Q7, the Q7 mk2 completely solved it.
I have found that I usually can hear the drivers in non-burned in speakers taken form the box - blending is usually the main improvement after a couple of hundreds of hours of operation. It is the more frequent sin of shows or shop demos - usually they do not have the time to burn-in equipment, the units being demoed almost smell fresh paint!
But I have not experience enough with the Sasha DAW to comment on this aspect.
IMHO a poor or inadequate source or amplification "exposes" the drivers of a speaker - the "defects" become localized in the unit zone.
Don't know about the XLF but at a Alexia 2 demo a colleague of mine and I could hear clearly on familiar music that Wilson has wired the midrange inverted from the other drivers...It was pretty obvious and sounded strange to us because transients were blunted. At that time I wasn't entirely sure about this until I read the Stereophile review much later that confirmed what we heard and discussed at the time of the demo. Perhaps the speakers were too new but perhaps not.
What I can say for certain in my own experiments with phase is that I can hear clearly the differences when my speakers are hooked up in normal or inverted phase...the whole presentation changes. If one driver is inverted (usually to make blending work at the crossover of 2nd order butterworth type filters) there is definitely something potentially audible as this driver will move inward when the others move out.
I have also experimented recently with my digital xover DIY horn setup where I am using a 2nd order LR filter. In this case both drivers should be hooked up in the same phase but I experimented with inversion of the horn driver (it is only a button click) and then equalizing the response to be the same. It still sounds quite different and having both in normal phase always sounded better blended and more natural...
Interesting point about the amps making the drivers sound separate. i have heard this effect as well. I once took a KR Audio VA350i over to a guy to demo on his Sonics Allegra speakers (I think this was the model...it was modular and had a long ribbon tweeter). First we listened with his Gamut integrated amp and I was struck by how disconnected all the drivers sounded...it was easy to pinpoint each frequency range by the driver producing it. Then we put on the KR and suddenly it was a pretty well integrated speaker with pretty much one voice (it was not the equal of a good electrostat to be sure). Interesting effect and must somehow be related to the distortions produced by that equipment.
Reviews of the XLF by knowledgeable people also say otherwise, we will disagree on this point. I refer to exact equipment I own and have long experience with. Surely I can easily create a system and positioning in my room where I listen to the separate drivers.
But yes, the Sasha2 is an excellent speaker if people like the Wilson sound.
People who agree with you aren't necessarily knowledgeable.
They might prefer the sound. But inability to hear the disparity is simply a lack of knowledge/experience with more coherent speakers
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Let’s face it, you made some rubbish choices on your ‘audiophile’ gear purchases. I’m both a coherence and tone junky and an absolute music lover and if you are willing to pay the price a true high end system can do that all completely.
The price I’m talking about isn’t necessarily all cash, it’s really more about a crazy investment in patience and absolute commitment. When you open that Pandora’s box and go for ultimate fidelity you shouldn’t maybe expect that any kind of absolute perfection comes easy.
We all make mistakes and quite a few early choices chasing sonics can ultimately musically suck. I made some average choices early on, most of us do. Music systems take work, understanding and a kind of commitment that one quick shopping excursion just isn’t going to ever buy. It’s quite a journey... and music is absolutely the driver. Stick with it, get some decent gear (vintage or new) and am sure you’ll find some greater musical satisfaction and joy within that system.
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Yes the midrange is inverted. I presume you're talking about phase coherence. What about time coherence?
In his Alexia series 2 review, I don't recall Atkinson saying anything about strange sounds or blunted transients. While I don't go for all the awards that magazines offer, the A2 was Stereophiles product of the year.
Nor are they necessarily lacking in knowledge.
Let's pick one.
You are an avowed Michael Fremer groupie - I was under the impression you think him knowledgeable. M.Fremer owned XLFs and thought highly of them. Many of his reviews that you like were done with XLFs. I don't recall him mentioning driver disparity. He traded in his XLFs for Wilson Alexx speakers. Do his choices reflect "simply a lack of knowledge/experience with more coherent speakers" ?
Avowed Michael Fremer groupie is very different from saying I really respect his analog reviews. He seems to describe things as he hears them instead of over exaggeration or random vocabulary. He seems quite honest in his recommendations, often not going ballistic about everything newer and more expensive.
I don't ever remember saying I follow nor care for his experience with speakers and amps. He seems to be an analogphile who is set up with the downstream gear he has and most of the time focuses on analog swaps.
I am not up to date on all the models, but I have heard Fremer play records on their Ultra 9 model and it was sublime!
Hi Peter,
What's the saying on luck, "opportunity favors the prepared mind", or something like that?
Mike is both lucky to have the room/ real estate he has, and skilled in making the most of it.
So Mike is in the group of lucky and great. His success is deserved.
Yet there are folks in NYC, London, and other places that may make 7 figures, but due to uncontrollable factors of their real estate situation, get crappy sound. Bad luck in getting good sound due to life situation...
Other scenarios could be a potentially good room, but bad luck with the acoustical approach, so bad sound.
Of course, there are lucky bastards who get good sound through pure dumb luck.
And of course, the scenario of a bad room, no acoustical approach and bad sound. Deserved as well.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. My short reply is twofold
First, subjectivity (here's a little primer I put together on subjectivity: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-and-predictability.22285/page-16#post-433756).
It's also personal tastes/ what we are used to.... My kids are going nuts, and I have to do something with them now, but I will collect some thoughts on this...
P.S. I will also check out your suggested recordings. Thank you for sharing.
I get grabbed by the music immediately, or not. I would rather listen to music in my car than on hyped -up, well marketed box speakers. Just like the OP.
Obviously you feel differently, which makes this so fun.
And I sincerely hope you keep enjoying what you are enjoying.
Absolutely ok!! It's ok to be a gear head not care much about the music if you like. I don't like bashing people for it, but if you notice that it's a "thing" that's fine.
It's actually the lack of distortion that make it more and more obvious. Well but it won't show it's face if the speaker isn't damped too much or is integrated extremely well. Think about it, a tweeter and woofer are inherently very different things so it makes sense that if they become overly defined they run a chance of altering you of these differences. It's not a guarantee, but it's extremely common to hear this and so people choose amps that work with speakers for "synergy".
Sad fact is though that a lot of stuff like say the KR with the Allegra might sound entirely whole with some other changes in the electronics chain. You'd be surprised how many odd things can make a disjointed sound that aren't in the speaker or related to feedback! Cables are a big one.
With all the talk about picking out drivers etc. I would like briefly point out the number of ways we can listen to music. Humans have the ability to focus their attention, which gives us a lot of flexibility and variation.
We can focus on single instruments, perhaps piano, or drums or saxophone and pretty much ignore everything else. This is the type of listening we use when playing air guitar for example
We can focus on the quality of sound, using our memory to compare sounds...for example trying to answer the question, does this trumpet, guitar or whatever sound lifelike?
We can focus on the rhythmic interplay of instruments, typically following the main rhythm highlighted by a few instruments pulling each other along.
Or we can suspend all conscious thought and focus on the entire musical composition....typically what we do when attending a live concert
However this ability does mean that I could sit through an entire concert and focus my attention on the contribution of the hall...listening for echoes and reflections if i so chose.
Similarly I could find my attention wandering and actually hear very little of the music, instead being focused on extraneous thoughts.
The same is true for hi-fi. I can focus on a great many different attributes.....tonal quality, timing, PRaT, individual drivers etc.
So here I would say is the biggest difference between music lovers and gear heads (notice I didn’t say audiophiles as I believe the posts above are enough proof that an audiophile can be both). Music lovers listen to the music....the composition, the beautiful timing, the interplay of instruments, the note shaping of great musicians....while gear heads listen to and appreciate things like sound stage, frequency extremes, PRaT, venue acoustics, recorded detail, system integration, musicality, naturalness, dynamics, silence between notes, air around instruments, tonal colour etc.
For me, the success or failure of a system lies in its ability to pull me in and engage me fully with the music, suspending conscious thought, without artefacts to break the spell and remind me that I’m listening to something synthetic. If a system can pull off that stunt, album after album, night after night I’m probably going to be a supporter. In my experience, its takes true system synergy to achieve this level of involvement and believability.....without synergy faults gradually appear and register on the conscious. True synergy is defined by the lack of a system identity, other than maybe a signature of speed, dynamics, accuracy and purity, typically qualities that don’t pall over time
We can focus on single instruments, perhaps piano, or drums or saxophone and pretty much ignore everything else. This is the type of listening we use when playing air guitar for example
We can focus on the quality of sound, using our memory to compare sounds...for example trying to answer the question, does this trumpet, guitar or whatever sound lifelike?
We can focus on the rhythmic interplay of instruments, typically following the main rhythm highlighted by a few instruments pulling each other along.
Or we can suspend all conscious thought and focus on the entire musical composition....typically what we do when attending a live concert
However this ability does mean that I could sit through an entire concert and focus my attention on the contribution of the hall...listening for echoes and reflections if i so chose.
Similarly I could find my attention wandering and actually hear very little of the music, instead being focused on extraneous thoughts.
The same is true for hi-fi. I can focus on a great many different attributes.....tonal quality, timing, PRaT, individual drivers etc.
So here I would say is the biggest difference between music lovers and gear heads (notice I didn’t say audiophiles as I believe the posts above are enough proof that an audiophile can be both). Music lovers listen to the music....the composition, the beautiful timing, the interplay of instruments, the note shaping of great musicians....while gear heads listen to and appreciate things like sound stage, frequency extremes, PRaT, venue acoustics, recorded detail, system integration, musicality, naturalness, dynamics, silence between notes, air around instruments, tonal colour etc.
For me, the success or failure of a system lies in its ability to pull me in and engage me fully with the music, suspending conscious thought, without artefacts to break the spell and remind me that I’m listening to something synthetic. If a system can pull off that stunt, album after album, night after night I’m probably going to be a supporter. In my experience, its takes true system synergy to achieve this level of involvement and believability.....without synergy faults gradually appear and register on the conscious. True synergy is defined by the lack of a system identity, other than maybe a signature of speed, dynamics, accuracy and purity, typically qualities that don’t pall over time
"Audiophiles are in love with sound. Music fans are in love with music."
I simply can't agree from my own experience. I happen to love both and see no conflicts in doing so.
"I was so disappointed. I am selling all the new high end stuff and going right back with my old set up. A setup that makes 95% of my albums just kick ass. The high end stuff made like 15% of my collection listenable."
Sorry to hear that. Good luck down the road.
Rob
I simply can't agree from my own experience. I happen to love both and see no conflicts in doing so.
"I was so disappointed. I am selling all the new high end stuff and going right back with my old set up. A setup that makes 95% of my albums just kick ass. The high end stuff made like 15% of my collection listenable."
Sorry to hear that. Good luck down the road.
Rob
Who cares about making apologies. It is a rich hobby exactly because it exists at multiple fascinating interfaces of science, art and perception. Music is an important part but not the only part.
Guys get obsessive and go around the bend a bit, that's what people with rewarding and interesting hobbies do.
Guys get obsessive and go around the bend a bit, that's what people with rewarding and interesting hobbies do.
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