Azimuth adjustment the easy way...

I actually don't have a suggestion im looking for yours. I've always done it by sight and ear but there are better methods and devices like the fozgometer. What's your favorite method for adjusting azimuth of a phono cartridge?

keep it simple, i do have a fluke multimeter but dont own an O-scope/fully outfitted tech's bench.
 
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bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#81
Adjust+ is a nice tool. However, in all the examples I've seen (such as this one), we see the phase curves and the crosstalk curves intersect at the same azimuth setting. Great, but what to do when phase and crosstalk do NOT intersect at the same azimuth setting? Well, then I'd go for the lowest crosstalk levels of both channels. So... did I really need to see the phase curves during my azimuth adjustment or would I have been fine using the Fozgometer all along. I feel the latter is the case.
 
Jul 8, 2011
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#82
Adjust+ is a nice tool. However, in all the examples I've seen (such as this one), we see the phase curves and the crosstalk curves intersect at the same azimuth setting. Great, but what to do when phase and crosstalk do NOT intersect at the same azimuth setting? Well, then I'd go for the lowest crosstalk levels of both channels. So... did I really need to see the phase curves during my azimuth adjustment or would I have been fine using the Fozgometer all along. I feel the latter is the case.
No. Minimum phase error matters more. The Fozgometer does not measure that.
 

bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#85
I emailed this question to him months ago and received this response... To favor crosstalk. Further, I can find no other guidance on his website nor in the downloadable manual as to how to handle this situation. His online instructional video only shows the simplistic case where the intersections occur at the same azimuth setting.

So if you'd like to shed more light, I'd be all ears. One question would be whether you're using zenith or azimuth to reduce phase offsets. Adjust+ is an azimuth tool, while zenith adjustment is going to likewise affect phase error. Certainly you could use Adjust+ to measure phase, and then adjust it in any fashion. I've just recently started using an oscilloscope.


Email:

On, Sep 4, 2017 at 1:26 AM, Chris Feickert <chris@feickert.com> wrote:

- In most examples of Adjust+ the phase and crosstalk graphs are shown intersecting at nearly the same point. What do we do when phase and crosstalk do not intersect at the same point?​
Then you look at least at the lowest crosstalk-levels of both channels...
 
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Jul 8, 2011
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#86
Because the documentation is not currently on his website I visited an older version of the site and found this:
https://web.archive.org/web/2016082...de/Download/AP_Azimuth_Compendium_english.pdf

You will see it is quite clear what he recommends, which is consistent with what I said and what my customers hear and prefer. But as I said, suit yourself. On the other hand if you want to hire me to set up your cartridge you can look over my shoulder and learn more.
 
Oct 14, 2018
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#87
Hi Brian, it seems that this pdf is not available anymore, do you still have a copy?
 
Oct 14, 2018
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#89
Sorry you are right it’s the same paper that Chris had uploaded to his Dropbox.
And yes you are right, the phase matters when the phase and crosstalk are not intersecting at the same point.
In the past I have tried both with a badly manufactured cartridge and the sound was way better at the phase intersection.
 

bazelio

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Sep 27, 2016
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#90
The PDF is much more helpful than his email response.

The answer for what to do when the curves intersect at different points that I was looking for is: "it depends". This is also what he indicates in the paper. Depending on the cart results, prioritizing phase is sometimes indicated. Other times optimizing for crosstalk instead of phase is indicated. Particularly when the phase curves are fairly flat.

Brian, I wasn't interested in hiring you; I was interested in an enlightening forum discussion that furthered people's knowledge of a sometimes mysterious topic.
 
Jul 8, 2011
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#91
I have seen just a few cases where the curves don't look 'normal' even after numerous readings. Relatively flat curves that intersect are the easiest to work with. Steep ones can make fine adjustment tricky. I am extremely patient and determined to get it right every time. I take personal interest in every one.
 

bazelio

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Sep 27, 2016
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#92
A couple things regarding phase are still unresolved. (1) Zenith will change the phase error measurement. We should not simply consider phase during the Azimuth portion of cartridge alignment. (2) Non-linear tonearm tracking error will effect phase also. Phase error measurements will change along the arc of the stylus, and where it is worst will depend on the alignment geometry being used. Meanwhile, a short test track on a test record measures phase in a small section of the total stylus arc across a record.
 
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Likes: wfojas
Dec 28, 2018
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#93
From my understaning of how the fozgometer works: play a mono signal, combine them out of phase (so they cancel), and adjust azimuth for the complete null, It seems a fundamental flaw with that is there may be an inherent imbalance in the output of the cartridge channel levels. This would explain why some folks using a fozgometer ended up with a radically tilted setup. Blind application of a technique without insight can lead to erroneous results.
Conversely if you end up with a radically tilted setup, then I would suggest the cartridge has some mfg/build flaws...send it back for a checkup from the neck up!

The main criticism I read about the Fozmeter is that since it is measuring output, you are aligning the coils for balanced output and not the stylus in the groove for even wear. I believe you have to find a happy medium, although my experience with the Fozmeter in my setup it gets me a performance that I am more than satisfied with as it has gotten me much better results than when I used a o-scope program on my laptop.
 

bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#94
The main criticism I read about the Fozmeter is that since it is measuring output, you are aligning the coils for balanced output and not the stylus in the groove for even wear ..... experience with the Fozmeter in my setup it gets me a performance that I am more than satisfied with as it has gotten me much better results than when I used a o-scope program on my laptop.
What else can be measured, other than the output from the cart?

With my scope, I can't measure the cart output directly for many LOMC carts as the signal level is below the noise floor of the scope. So I use a SUT or sometimes even the output of the phono. Other than that, the scope works better for me, at least in so far as it gives me the option to do exactly what the Fozgometer does, OR to go beyond the capabilities of the Foz. Can you explain why you think the Foz gives "much better results" than the scope you've used?
 
Likes: Catcher10
Dec 28, 2018
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#95
What else can be measured, other than the output from the cart?

With my scope, I can't measure the cart output directly for many LOMC carts as the signal level is below the noise floor of the scope. So I use a SUT or sometimes even the output of the phono. Other than that, the scope works better for me, at least in so far as it gives me the option to do exactly what the Fozgometer does, OR to go beyond the capabilities of the Foz. Can you explain why you think the Foz gives "much better results" than the scope you've used?
That is my impression, but you read from say Peter Ledermann (Soundsmith) that this way does not account for true azimuth in the groove and even stylus wear. Which I see his point but to me that only comes into play if you have a less than well made cartridge.
I think my issue with using the o-scope was my soundcard, I never felt it was reading accurately or gave me good results, and this could be due to the low output of MC carts. It got me closer than by eye but it was such a chore setting up, dragging my laptop to my system. I also tried using a DMM but kinda same thing, not enough output to read......So I bought the Fozgometer, the $250 was well worth it IMO. I use it often to check couple times a month as it only takes maybe 5-8 minutes. I just figure moving your tonearm back and forth over and over things can get a tad of of whack, especially VTF.
I can adjust my tonearm so the readings on the Foz are almost identical and the channel balance reads zero perfectly. MS told me if you can get the channel separation numbers to within 1-2 clicks on the scale that is really good, I get them almost the same, any variance is probably due to the test record signal.
But essentially I think we are on the same page.......
 
#96
Zenith will change the phase error measurement. We should not simply consider phase during the Azimuth portion of cartridge alignment.
The measurement parameters are all connected. If you change one, the others change too. The goal is to get everything orthogonal between actual stylus assembly and groove. The exactness of this orthogonality is displayed in terms of magnitude and phase for L and R channel.
Adjust+ is just choosing to use azimuth as the controlling parameter to get everything correct. You may as well use the same procedure in Adjust+ for e.g. zenith or sra/vta.
 

bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#97
Of course one can use Adjust+ however they like. I was simply saying that from the video I've seen, its azimuth adjustments don't take into account the inter-relatedness of zenith. The method involves using a spirit level and set of sweeps at different azimuth settings. Then you're instructed to pick the best setting. So given that the tool is trying to devolve cartridge setup into a tuple of prescribed steps, what I noted was seemingly worth noting. Further, I just searched the Adjust+ "Azimuth Compendium" doc for the word zenith, and it wasn't found. At the end of the day, even with o-scopes or microscopes or sound cards with specialized software, this is really not an exact science. IMO, the best we can do is to understand how settings are affected by one another, and then experiment a lot. I suspect that the vast majority of us get to the point of leaving well enough alone sooner rather than later. And I find the claims of things such as 0.001g delta in VTF transforming a system's sound to be bogus.
 
Likes: sefischer1
#98
Of course one can use Adjust+ however they like.
I don't think that is immediately obvious.
I never heard of anyone else but myself using the tool like that.
You are the first I come across after using it for 10 years.

I was simply saying that from the video I've seen, its azimuth adjustments don't take into account the inter-relatedness of zenith. The method involves using a spirit level and set of sweeps at different azimuth settings. Then you're instructed to pick the best setting. So given that the tool is trying to devolve cartridge setup into a tuple of prescribed steps, what I noted was seemingly worth noting.
Well, it does.
If you get the voltage magnitude and phase from L and R channels correct, it is correct.
Feickert is showing a procedure to get all cartridge parameters correct, and azimuth is the final step. One could say he's using azimuth as final fine tuning.
He's just using a bit too many words without saying what's important, to my taste.
 

bazelio

Active Member
Sep 27, 2016
679
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#99
It's a compound angle, if we assume the stylus not in perfect alignment to the cantilever and/or the cantilever not absolutely true, etc. So once you rotate zenith to compensate (at 0 degree azimuth) then once you change azimuth you've then changed your zenith even if only slightly. It's one of the many "joys" of cart setup for the detail-oriented. Joys because it's often very difficult to precisely affect zenith in small amounts. Also, it's quite easy to accidentally nudge overhang at the same time when you're only intending to adjust zenith. Or at least it is for me. :)

PS, if I get magnitude and phase aligned from only zenith adjustment, and then start over and find a way to get both aligned from only azimuth adjustment.... Then are both alignments equally correct? Probably not
 
I find the claims of things such as 0.001g delta in VTF transforming a system's sound to be bogus.
I agree, that is totally irrelevant.
If you decrease THD with 30% by altering the VTF by 1mg, then it's relevant.
But if you stay within the range for a specific cartridge, that should not be an issue at all.
 

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