Best phono stage?

[LSROCHA]

I'm not in the same league as the members to whom you're referring. Even if I were I wouldn't spend $60 large on a phonostage. That's just excessiveness beyond comprehension. I do understand that for some to play in that league strokes their egos!

You mean $60K?

 

[SoundMann]

You mean $60K?

He would be missing out on the superior sound of the Zanden 1200 Signature if he didn't pony up the dough.

 

[Tangram]

I would support the use of EAR phono stages too. A couple of months back Kedar brought over a used EAR834P that he said had Telefunken ECC83’s installed in place of whatever 12AX7’s they usually come with. The EAR does MM and MC so the plan was to try it in place of my Ypsilon VPS100 phono stage, with and without my Phasemation T-2000 step up transformers.

Getting to the point; the EAR834P with Telefunken ECC83 valves, set on MM, but utilising the Phasemation SUT’s sounded better than my Ypsilon VPS100 with the Phasemation T2000 SUT’s. Negatives? The EAR is run off a wall wart, plugged in and hot all the time, it is not that big and heavy interconnects could lift an end.

The Ypsilon sells for around £17,000 whereas the EAR can be found used for less than £2000 including a set of NOS smooth plate Telefunkens from Brent Jesse (but the Phasemations cost about £8000 a pair).

It took me a couple of iterations to figure the same thing out, including time owning an Allnic H7000. It speaks to the genius of Tim de Paravicini that a simple circuit utilizing two tubes (common ones at that) could, when paired with the appropriate SUT, sound so exquisite. In my case I’m using an 868pl, which uses the 88pb circuit, but with my Allnic SUT, I’m set for life. I can still have fun with tube rolling if I want to change things up. But I’ll go on record as saying the EAR MM phono pres paired with a quality SUT are one of the great “gems” in analog.

 

[DasguteOhr]

It took me a couple of iterations to figure the same thing out, including time owning an Allnic H7000. It speaks to the genius of Tim de Paravicini that a simple circuit utilizing two tubes (common ones at that) could, when paired with the appropriate SUT, sound so exquisite. In my case I’m using an 868pl, which uses the 88pb circuit, but with my Allnic SUT, I’m set for life. I can still have fun with tube rolling if I want to change things up. But I’ll go on record as saying the EAR MM phono pres paired with a quality SUT are one of the great “gems” in analog.

834p is a three stage (3 tubes) design with active riaa in feedback loop.
There are people who don't like negative feedback, but there are plenty of counterexamples.
Here a smart mc two stage design with sut from haufe that sounds phantastic.

 

[bonzo75]

It took me a couple of iterations to figure the same thing out, including time owning an Allnic H7000. It speaks to the genius of Tim de Paravicini that a simple circuit utilizing two tubes (common ones at that) could, when paired with the appropriate SUT, sound so exquisite. In my case I’m using an 868pl, which uses the 88pb circuit, but with my Allnic SUT, I’m set for life. I can still have fun with tube rolling if I want to change things up. But I’ll go on record as saying the EAR MM phono pres paired with a quality SUT are one of the great “gems” in analog.

Hi, with your Allnic 7000 you had changed the rectifier?

 

[Atmasphere]

834p is a three stage (3 tubes) design with active riaa in feedback loop.
There are people who don't like negative feedback, but there are plenty of counterexamples.
Here a smart mc two stage design with sut from haufe that sounds phantastic.View attachment 152036

Nice! Looks like it needs a power supply...

 

[DasguteOhr]

Nice! Looks like it needs a power supply...

Yes..i use circut board with silvercore sut( included in the housing) +seperate powersupply.
Kind of cute and space-saving. Gain 64dB with 1:20 sut/mm 38dB.
Width 18cm deepth 23cm


separate mains transformer key switch anode voltage 40
seconds delay

 

[dionisofun]

It took me a couple of iterations to figure the same thing out, including time owning an Allnic H7000. It speaks to the genius of Tim de Paravicini that a simple circuit utilizing two tubes (common ones at that) could, when paired with the appropriate SUT, sound so exquisite. In my case I’m using an 868pl, which uses the 88pb circuit, but with my Allnic SUT, I’m set for life. I can still have fun with tube rolling if I want to change things up. But I’ll go on record as saying the EAR MM phono pres paired with a quality SUT are one of the great “gems” in analog.

Did you prefer the performance of the 868pl over the Allnic 7000?

 

[SeagoatLeo]

Did you prefer the performance of the 868pl over the Allnic 7000?

I have an EAR 912 (and 864) both of which sound great for analog but really so so for their line stages (the 912 just sounds thin and not fleshed out in the mids in particular). I'm using an EAR 324 into a Westminster Labs Quest 2 preamp now and it's great too, more detailed and faster transient response than the EAR pre-amps. EAR 324 also worked great with the Lampizator Poseidon as a pre-amp.

 

[bonzo75]

I have an EAR 912 (and 864) both of which sound great for analog but really so so for their line stages (the 912 just sounds thin and not fleshed out in the mids in particular). I'm using an EAR 324 into a Westminster Labs Quest 2 preamp now and it's great too, more detailed and faster transient response than the EAR pre-amps. EAR 324 also worked great with the Lampizator Poseidon as a pre-amp.

Yes the 912 gets held back because of the line stage

 

[bonzo75]

Did you prefer the performance of the 868pl over the Allnic 7000?

To compare the Allnic the stock recti needs to be swapped. It is usually quite mediocre with the stock recti

 

[the_nines]

I would support the use of EAR phono stages too. A couple of months back Kedar brought over a used EAR834P that he said had Telefunken ECC83’s installed in place of whatever 12AX7’s they usually come with. The EAR does MM and MC so the plan was to try it in place of my Ypsilon VPS100 phono stage, with and without my Phasemation T-2000 step up transformers.

Getting to the point; the EAR834P with Telefunken ECC83 valves, set on MM, but utilising the Phasemation SUT’s sounded better than my Ypsilon VPS100 with the Phasemation T2000 SUT’s. Negatives? The EAR is run off a wall wart, plugged in and hot all the time, it is not that big and heavy interconnects could lift an end.

The Ypsilon sells for around £17,000 whereas the EAR can be found used for less than £2000 including a set of NOS smooth plate Telefunkens from Brent Jesse (but the Phasemations cost about £8000 a pair).

The EAR834P is run off a wall wart?

Really?

I own two, no wall warts.

I'm genuinely curious. Thanks.

 

[A-Line]

I have a EAR 324 phono stage that I bought new in 2010.. It's quite excellent. I'm keeping mine permanently.
I like solid state for analog vs tubes. Tubes I like for digital.

 

[Massimo66]

To compare the Allnic the stock recti needs to be swapped. It is usually quite mediocre with the stock recti

I totally agree, I had all the phono ear at home, including the 912 preamp, remarkable devices in their price range. In particular, the 912 is something special for an analogist (the line is slow and a bit veiled), as long as it uses Mullard valves, with the original ones it's a piece of junk. In the end, I kept the Allnic 7000 with the silver step-ups and the changed recti

 

[Rensselaer]

It was 6 months or so back when Kedar brought one by and I thought it was a wall wart, but might just have been a power cord without off-on. I can’t remember. My most humble apologies if I got it wrong. The performance, however, I recall was very good on MM with my Phasemation T-2000 SUT’s.

 

[A-Line]

Wall warts?? What's that? lol

Is that like a muli- plug pole outlet? Seen those used by the nurses in the operating rooms back when I still did orthopedic surgery.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

I have a EAR 324 phono stage that I bought new in 2010.. It's quite excellent. I'm keeping mine permanently.
I like solid state for analog vs tubes. Tubes I like for digital.

That's what I did too (bought in 2007). I have a Lampizator Poseidon for digital. Into the Westminster Labs Quest 2, both are improved (although I did love the sound of the 324 into the Poseidon as a pre-amp as well).

 

[analogsa]

834p is a three stage (3 tubes) design with active riaa in feedback loop.
There are people who don't like negative feedback

As one of those people inclined to eschew nfb i find the 834 a rather interesting example.

Firstly the nfb is around a single amplification stage and of shunt type. Secondly, there isn't a whole lot of nfb, it's really the absolute minimum to meet the riaa specs. The difference between OLG and CLG @1kHz is only 20db, but this is exactly the extra gain needed at low frequencies.
So, does that mean there is 40db of nfb @20kHz? Not really as the shunt application modulates the load and therefore the gain of the first stage which is outside the nfb loop.

So why use this strange arrangement at all? I have to admit i am not altogether certain. It may be the active riaa which swaps poles and zeroes vs a passive one, produces more appropriate RC values. There may be other phono stages with similarly low capacitor values but i have no recollection of ever seeing one. Romy the Cat built a version with air dielectric capacitors, as did myself. A low voltage teflon cap in the pF range is also trivially easy to diy.

To my ears, the 834 sounds identical to a nfb free design in all respects that matter.

 

[DasguteOhr]

As one of those people inclined to eschew nfb i find the 834 a rather interesting example.

Firstly the nfb is around a single amplification stage and of shunt type. Secondly, there isn't a whole lot of nfb, it's really the absolute minimum to meet the riaa specs. The difference between OLG and CLG @1kHz is only 20db, but this is exactly the extra gain needed at low frequencies.
So, does that mean there is 40db of nfb @20kHz? Not really as the shunt application modulates the load and therefore the gain of the first stage which is outside the nfb loop.

So why use this strange arrangement at all? I have to admit i am not altogether certain. It may be the active riaa which swaps poles and zeroes vs a passive one, produces more appropriate RC values. There may be other phono stages with similarly low capacitor values but i have no recollection of ever seeing one. Romy the Cat built a version with air dielectric capacitors, as did myself. A low voltage teflon cap in the pF range is also trivially easy to diy.

To my ears, the 834 sounds identical to a nfb free design in all respects that matter.

I know active and passive RIAA designs, both of which sound excellent. I just wanted to point out that there are people who say 834p sounds great, but detest feedback on every comment here. Reminds me a bit of double standards: as long as it sounds good, it doesn't matter.
On the subject of capacitors, there are mica capacitors from 10pf upwards. I'd go for something like that and save myself the work. If you're restoring a tube radio and want to keep it in its original condition, then you can make small capacitors yourself.

 

[analogsa]

I know active and passive RIAA designs, both of which sound excellent. I just wanted to point out that there are people who say 834p sounds great, but detest feedback on every comment here. Reminds me a bit of double standards: as long as it sounds good, it doesn't matter.

The point is this only looks like nfb but isn't really. Normal shunt feedback requires two resistors: the shunt one, which here is the riaa network and one in series which in this case is the output impedance of the first stage. Because of the shunt, the first stage sees a frequency dependent load which matches exactly the riaa curve. It is unfair to compare this to classic voltage nfb which in most phono amps is around two or more amplification stages.