Best Sounding In-Wall Speakers? In-Ceiling Speakers?

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for those thoughts, Believe and Mark.

I will order an ML Edge and an ML Vanquish just to play with them, and to compare them side-by-side with a Sonus Play 5.

 

[Ron Resnick]

In an effort to decide whether to install several more Sonos Play 5s or to install MartinLogan Edges (in-wall speakers) or Vanquishes (in-ceiling speakers) I decided to conduct a simple A/B/C test.







This test turned out not to be so simple. First, the Edge sounds dull and muffled. I think something is wrong with the ribbon tweeter. So Crutchfield is sending me a replacement Edge.

The Vanquish sounds clears but lacking in lower midrange or bass fullness of any kind. (I also turned up the bass all the way on the Arcam A90 integrated amplifier I am using for this test.)

So far the Sonus Play 5 (which we have been using for several months) may not be as clear-sounding or as transparent as the Vanquish, but it sounds much fuller and richer. I am beginning to think that the Sonos DSP adjustment the Play 5 makes when you install it really boosts mid and low frequencies.

 

[amirm]

Good on you Ron for doing such tests .

With respect to bass, they will all be lacking to one extent or the other. We always try to install/hide a sub some place to augment these speakers. And use Crown amps with DSP which we program after measurement to get good sound out of all of them. See this article I wrote a while back: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/architectural-audio-systems.172/#post-3609

We have a pair of subs above this fireplace:

Here is another home we did this time with a custom sub we built that went below the fireplace:

For speakers, in-wall products are all about maximum margin for installers. If you want good sound, take a look at the Revel line. They are the only ones with science behind them including double blind tests before release. We once put one in a box and people thought it was a high fidelity speaker!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Amir.

Have you ever listened to the Sonos Play 5? Why does it sound so full and rich and have such a "big" sound?

I suspect it's a DSP "trick" (but one which works extremely well).

 

[amirm]

I have not heard it Ron but it does have a DSP which it uses to shape the response curve. It is a box speaker with multiple drivers and DSP so it is not a good comparison to simpler drivers made to be mounted to a wall.

 

[CGabriel]

Good on you Ron for doing such tests .

With respect to bass, they will all be lacking to one extent or the other. We always try to install/hide a sub some place to augment these speakers. And use Crown amps with DSP which we program after measurement to get good sound out of all of them. See this article I wrote a while back: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/architectural-audio-systems.172/#post-3609

We have a pair of subs above this fireplace:

Here is another home we did this time with a custom sub we built that went below the fireplace:

For speakers, in-wall products are all about maximum margin for installers. If you want good sound, take a look at the Revel line. They are the only ones with science behind them including double blind tests before release. We once put one in a box and people thought it was a high fidelity speaker!

Beautiful install job, Amir. Very nice!

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

In an effort to decide whether to install several more Sonos Play 5s or to install MartinLogan Edges (in-wall speakers) or Vanquishes (in-ceiling speakers) I decided to conduct a simple A/B/C test.



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This test turned out not to be so simple. First, the Edge sounds dull and muffled. I think something is wrong with the ribbon tweeter. So Crutchfield is sending me a replacement Edge.

The Vanquish sounds clears but lacking in lower midrange or bass fullness of any kind. (I also turned up the bass all the way on the Arcam A90 integrated amplifier I am using for this test.)

So far the Sonus Play 5 (which we have been using for several months) may not be as clear-sounding or as transparent as the Vanquish, but it sounds much fuller and richer. I am beginning to think that the Sonos DSP adjustment the Play 5 makes when you install it really boosts mid and low frequencies.

What sort of music are you using to conduct the A/B test?

 

[Mark Seaton]

Thank you, Amir.

Have you ever listened to the Sonos Play 5? Why does it sound so full and rich and have such a "big" sound?

I suspect it's a DSP "trick" (but one which works extremely well).

While mounting flush in the wall will further reinforce the lower mid and upper bass range, and proximity to a side wall will also have an effect. One significant factor relative to Amir's mention of subwoofers is whether or not the speaker is expected to have subwoofer complimenting it. If the speakers were conceived with a surround system in mind with a subwoofer, they are going to sound thin and light without a subwoofer complimenting them. When small bookshelf speakers or desktop speakers are typically voiced to sound full and robust on their own, they end up with an elevated lower octave or 2. In effect you end up boosting the harmonics of the bass energy that isn't there. Until response extends below ~30Hz, such an exaggeration of the frequency response is needed for subjective balance, with more boosting required as the low frequency extension is diminished. In other words, a speaker only reaching to ~90Hz will often have a significant lift below 200Hz to sound balanced with the higher frequencies, and a speaker with extension to ~40Hz will have a much less pronounced rise. The SONOS solutions are more self contained, so they know they will be listened to as a single entity, and are voiced accordingly.

Of course the irony is that making such a voicing in the speaker then makes it even harder to blend with a subwoofer if just using a simple crossover and no other EQ. This results in compact speakers that could benefit greatly from subwoofers often being prone to a bloated sound when the lowest octaves are then added with a subwoofer, as that lift doesn't sound right when you have extension below 25Hz.

I might suggest looking into getting hold of a pair of appropriate Triad's for comparison.

 

[Brucemck2]

I might suggest looking into getting hold of a pair of appropriate Triad's for comparison.

The Triads perform well at their price points. They benefit from plenty of power. I've used them in several rooms.

 

[Ron Resnick]

While mounting flush in the wall will further reinforce the lower mid and upper bass range, and proximity to a side wall will also have an effect. One significant factor relative to Amir's mention of subwoofers is whether or not the speaker is expected to have subwoofer complimenting it. If the speakers were conceived with a surround system in mind with a subwoofer, they are going to sound thin and light without a subwoofer complimenting them. When small bookshelf speakers or desktop speakers are typically voiced to sound full and robust on their own, they end up with an elevated lower octave or 2. In effect you end up boosting the harmonics of the bass energy that isn't there. Until response extends below ~30Hz, such an exaggeration of the frequency response is needed for subjective balance, with more boosting required as the low frequency extension is diminished. In other words, a speaker only reaching to ~90Hz will often have a significant lift below 200Hz to sound balanced with the higher frequencies, and a speaker with extension to ~40Hz will have a much less pronounced rise. The SONOS solutions are more self contained, so they know they will be listened to as a single entity, and are voiced accordingly.

Of course the irony is that making such a voicing in the speaker then makes it even harder to blend with a subwoofer if just using a simple crossover and no other EQ. This results in compact speakers that could benefit greatly from subwoofers often being prone to a bloated sound when the lowest octaves are then added with a subwoofer, as that lift doesn't sound right when you have extension below 25Hz.

I might suggest looking into getting hold of a pair of appropriate Triad's for comparison.

Mark, Thank you very much for this explanation. When I look at the MartinLogan Architectural line I do not see a subwoofer as part of the series. Of course in a home theater set-up one would have to use subwoofers.

But in the case of in-ceiling "life-style" speakers how could MartinLogan expect consumers to hide a subwoofer in the kitchen, for example.

And the Vanquish does not seem lacking only in low frequencies. It seems thin-sounding from the midrange on down.

 

[Mark Seaton]

Mark, Thank you very much for this explanation. When I look at the MartinLogan Architectural line I do not see a subwoofer as part of the series. Of course in a home theater set-up one would have to use subwoofers.

But in the case of in-ceiling "life-style" speakers how could MartinLogan expect consumers to hide a subwoofer in the kitchen, for example.

And the Vanquish does not seem lacking only in low frequencies. It seems thin-sounding from the midrange on down.

That is something that setting out against the wall vs mounted flush in a wall can impact. In effect, you are changing the width of the face of the speaker. It gets a bit fuzzy because the wall is still there behind the speaker, but that discontinuity means that in the lower mid there will be a recession in the response vs when it is mounted flush. While obviously it's preferred to use a more rigid surface, even cutting the speaker into a 2-3' dimension of cardboard with one edge angled back to the wall will give a better representation of what the speaker will sound like. Mounting environment does matter.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It turns out that the first sample of the Edge speaker was, in fact, defective. It sounded muddy and dull and the replacement Edge sounds normal. The replacement Edge sounds a lot like the Vanquish.

I think we have decided we like the cosmetic "clean-ness" of in-ceiling speakers. I am sure Mark is correct that installing the Vanquish in the ceiling would supplement the lower midrange and upper bass frequencies.

But I remain a bit befuddled. The Sonus Play 5 ($499) is superior sonically to both the Edge ($1,699) and the Vanquish ($1,399). It really is not close.

I continue to suspect that the TruePlay DSP in the Play 5 is working some sonic magic to make the Play 5 sound big, bold, rich and warm. But, in addition, the Play 5 also sounds more transparent than either the Edge or the Vanquish.

In an attempt to even the frequency response score I boosted the bass on the integrated amp driving the Edge and the Vanquish. This makes the MartinLogan speakers sound fuller and richer and more competitive with the Play 5, but the Play 5 is still much more enjoyable to listen to. If I stop the bass boost the Vanquish sounds totally anemic in comparison to the Play 5.

I think I have to look (and listen) beyond the Vanquish. Please tell me your nominee for best-sounding ceiling speaker.

I just ordered a Monitor Audio CP-CT380IDC ($850) and a Dynaudio S4-C80 ($900) and a PSB C-LCR ($800) to compare to the Vanquish.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Re: Triads

Mark, Bruce,

I see the top of line ceiling Triad is Gold/8 Minimonitor. Are you familiar with this speaker?

 

[Brucemck2]

Re: Triads

Mark, Bruce,

I see the top of line ceiling Triad is Gold/8 Minimonitor. Are you familiar with this speaker?

I've used the Inwall Silver 6 flanking a Kuro monitor with in-ceiling Silvers providing surround duties. Those perform very well, with the caveat that they are supplemented with a subwoofer. In a prior home I used on-wall Silver surrounds, which also performed well.

They are a bit "restrained" sounding unless provided lots of power; they really sound their best at higher than typical (but far from ear splitting) volumes; really nice tone/balance but somewhat below average (vs. things like Mark sells!) dynamics.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Bruce.

After we receive and audition the next three candidates I may order a Triad Inceiling Gold/8 Minimonitor.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I sent home the MartinLogan Edge. I now have the MartinLogan Vanquish, the Sonos Play 5, the Monitor Audio CP-CT380IDC and the PSB C-LCR speakers in direct A/B/C/D comparison.





I also fitted the Vanquish into a box to afford the opportunity to have reinforced lower frequencies.

As a 20 year ML owner I am surprised how disappointing the Edge sounded and the Vanquish sounds. These speakers are no descendants of the Neolith. The Vanquish, even in the box, is completely anemic-sounding. It sounds quite transparent -- probably due to the ribbon tweeter -- but midrange frequencies and low frequencies are nowhere to be heard. The Vanquish is being dismissed and returned.

With the Monitor Audio speaker I am finally hearing some of the warmth and richness I hear in the Play 5. The Monitor Audio contender is not as big and bold sounding as the Play 5, but it is at least something I can listen to. However, the Monitor Audio is not as transparent as the Play 5 (or the Vanquish).

Next up is the PSB. Aaaaahhhhhh . . . finally a speaker I can actually enjoy! It still is not as transparent as the Play 5, but it has the warmth and richness of the Monitor Audio and most of the transparency of the Vanquish. It also is the cheapest speaker in the entire group (other than the Play 5). I had begun to wonder whether I was going to find any of these ceiling speakers acceptable sonically. I was not relishing the prospect of buying 10 or 12 pairs of speakers I don't really care for.

The PSB is unequivocally the best-sounding speaker of this comparison so far. The final contender is a brand new Dynaudio release arriving tomorrow. I truly am relieved to find the PSB and to discover that I actually enjoy listening to it And since it is less than half the price of the Vanquish I can put pairs of the PSB everywhere.

 

[Sencha]

Hi Ron,

While I have never heard and of the speakers from the brands mentioned I have heard the PMC Wafers which I thought were stunning. The use a transmission line within each unit to get a more than reasonable or far more than expected bass output. Very worth checking out if you can get your hands on them over the water.

https://pmc-speakers.com/products/custom-installation

 

[Ron Resnick]

The just-released Dynaudio S4-C80 was just dropped off by Bijan, proprietor of Definition audio video in Santa Monica.





The brand new Dynaudio S4-C80 speaker is great! It is either #1 or #2 out of the five speakers under review. It is clearly better than MartinLogan Edge, MartinLogan Vanquish and Monitor Audio CP-CT380IDC.

It is hard to compare the Dynaudio to the PSB C-LCR because the PSB has an integrated box which reinforces the lower midrange and down. I put the Dynaudio in a cardboard box to give it some low frequency support.

The Dynaudio might be a bit more transparent and intelligible than the PSB, but it might be the lighter frequency balance due to the lack of a box.

I will have to spend more time comparing the PSB to the Dynaudio.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think I have listened and compared long enough to announce a winner.

The PSB C–LCR is the clear winner of this competition. I was never familiar with PSB speakers before but, it is now clear to me, I have overlooked something with this company.

While the PSB C-LCR is still not as big and bold and transparent sounding as the bafflingly good Sonos Play 5, it is close in all sonic parameters, and this without any DSP magic trick. I don't know how the PSB gets so much sound out of one metal dome tweeter and two 5 1/4 inch woofers. I am sure the fixed back box has a lot to do with the strong low-frequency output of this speaker.

Generally metal dome tweeters are anathema to me (except in the Rockport Altair II and Arrakis). In this implementation I do not hear any ringing or brightness at all.

This speaker literally sounds like a full range speaker of a much larger size than it actually is. The PSB is the cheapest speaker in the competition, and it is my clear favourite. It is a ceiling speaker which actually rocks!

The Dynaudio S4-C80 is my second favourite of the bunch. But the Dynaudio does not have the low-frequency extension of the PSB. I think that any ceiling speaker without a back box is going to be less predictable sounding than a sealed speaker with a back box.

I can buy a pair of PSBs for every MartinLogan Vanquish. I am going to put a pair of PSBs in rooms in which I had planned to install only one Vanquish. A stereo pair of these speakers will increase their margin of superiority over any single ceiling speaker. I am very impressed with this in-ceiling speaker.

I would not be surprised if PSB's Imagine T3 tower speaker for $7500 for a pair is great sound and great value.

 

[Ron Resnick]

My wife has come to the same conclusions about the three final contenders: The Monitor Audio is warm and full-sounding but lower in resolution and vocal intelligibility. The Dynaudio is at least as transparent as the PSB, but the PSB -- with its full back-box -- is the better all around speaker.