Better than Live??
- Thread starter DaveyF
- Start date
I do know the difference very well, and that's how I know that a modest hifi system can present many things better than amplified live performance. Those things include detail, resolution, imaging, and, depending on the quality of the live sound system, the venue acoustics, your seat...even the tonality of the instruments. What even very immodest hifi systems cannot reproduce are the acoustics of the venue, the spatial effects, and unamplified, the visceral impact of very dynamic insruments like percussion. Hifi will rarely produce those effects well even relative to an amplified concert; a large live sound system is pretty hard to compete with dynamically.
Tim
Bob,
C'est plus que dommage, c'est affreux à mon avis.
I can not figure a way of carrying blind and deaf listening ... I was anticipating some listening and a nice talk about the recording, it seems all we can get is microphone talk.
Back to my Rachmaninoff in available Decca recordings. 
Better than live ????
I spoke last week to an audiophile who rents out his system to a musician , the musician is left with playbacking while the system reproduces at a gig , its that good
I spoke last week to an audiophile who rents out his system to a musician , the musician is left with playbacking while the system reproduces at a gig , its that good
Better than live ????
I spoke last week to an audiophile who rents out his system to a musician , the musician is left with playbacking while the system reproduces at a gig , its that good
That's a good one. This guy rents out his system to a musician...is it me or is there something a little odd about that...maybe a new business model, LOL.
Hmmm.... here's a thought, you ( dealer) put together a multi $$ system and allow people to lease it from you, I guess why not?? Works for the car industry, plus many audio systems are far more expensive these days than a car!
yep maybe , actually it was done iirc in the hague some years back , a person had only audionote UK in his shop and people could lease and upgrade within audio note while getting the full price for the old system.
Nice shop in a nice building it didnt survive that long though
, actually it was done iirc in the hague some years back , a person had only audionote UK in his shop and people could lease and upgrade within audio note while getting the full price for the old system.Nice shop in a nice building it didnt survive that long though
Parallel Processing...it is the same with food...our mind responds to many things including previous experiences... if we are over "Lou's" house listening to his system or his performance and it is less than stellar, we will like it because Lou is a great guy or we had fun at Lous's before or if you are insecure eveyone else like Lou...like you say you can't really get into nuts and bolts evaluation but as you say do you like the music
its fantastic and things happen there only dreamed of on plain old stereo island
I think you are confusing Binaural Island with Fantasy Island.
Difficult, but not impossible. When I got a live concert, I discover one thing overall: the experience is feeble compared to how I'm used to listening to music at home. I had this experience in spades when I visited the largest organ in CT, one that Berj Zamkochian himself played, on a prospecting for recording trip, and the music director gave me a 'full stops' chord with 32' pedal. I was standing in the balcony where the console is, right under the organ pipes. My first impression was, "is that all there is?" At that point, I realized that I had been playing my organ music too loud and with too much low frequency emphasis.
Playing back marching band percussion is a no-brainer and doesn't even use enough power to register on my power meters.
But where my system's capabilities really shine is playing back pyrotechic recordings. Mortar shells exploding at close range. Even THAT wasn't as loud as I expected when I measured it on the field while making a 3-camera video with 5-ch surround sound. I had to tone down my playback levels to match what me and my crew heard in the field when we recorded it. The funny thing about my recording: when you play it back on a conventional stereo system, the explosions sound like 'ticks' of static discharge, not at all like explosions. But at the proper level on the big system, you are transported back to the airfield with the mortar launchers right in front of you. I figured out that by applying 60dB of compression to the recording, I could get it to sound almost like "a recording of" fireworks on a normal stereo. However, only the uncompressed recording actually recreates the full experience. A lot of people can't comprehend what I'm discussing here, lacking the experience with such a sound system. There are probably a half dozen systems of such capability in the world.
Last year, at the first BASS meetup, I played the fireworks video. This was March 30th. Later that evening, as the meeting was winding down, some neighbors up the road, joined in the fun, lighting off their own fireworks. Apparently the sound leaking OUT of my basement sounded like fireworks to the rest of the surrounding neighbors (spaced far apart--we life in the rural woods) and they lit off some of their own on this non-customary night where no holiday appropriate to fireworks exists. Had moved the system outdoors, it would have been 'interesting'.
Mark, It looks to me as if you may be confusing the ability to reproduce massive volume with the ability to portray the lifelike fidelity of instruments in a 'live' space.
Re-creating the sound of explosions and the like, IMHO has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to make a piano sound like it is in the same room with you...just IMHO
Some good points there Mark.
I have found that at live venues the control of reverberations is very important.
In a less than well acoustically controlled hall, the volume level of amplified musical instruments and voices, plus the microphone's positioning (for proper sound balancing), are major keys to a better overall performance, for top-notch live experience.
At home, from our stereo sound systems (or multichannel), the volume level is very important as well.
...Each recording requires a proper balance of the master volume level control adjustment, proportionally relative to our own room's overall space (cubic volume). ...Displacement.
And some music recordings even requires different volume levels, from one track to another!
I have found that at live venues the control of reverberations is very important.
In a less than well acoustically controlled hall, the volume level of amplified musical instruments and voices, plus the microphone's positioning (for proper sound balancing), are major keys to a better overall performance, for top-notch live experience.
At home, from our stereo sound systems (or multichannel), the volume level is very important as well.
...Each recording requires a proper balance of the master volume level control adjustment, proportionally relative to our own room's overall space (cubic volume). ...Displacement.
And some music recordings even requires different volume levels, from one track to another!
Mark, It looks to me as if you may be confusing the ability to reproduce massive volume with the ability to portray the lifelike fidelity of instruments in a 'live' space.
Re-creating the sound of explosions and the like, IMHO has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to make a piano sound like it is in the same room with you...just IMHO
While I find myself a little shocked at the thought, I find myself in complete agreement with DaveyF. I really have no interest in being able to play back fireworks at real-world levels on my stereo. It might make for a fun parlor trick like the others you use to make people nauseous and run screaming from your house. I find all of that a bit disturbing rather than something other people should try and emulate. Tell me how good your stereo system is playing music and I'm all ears. Tell me how your stereo system is wrecking the house and scaring people and can sound better than a live fireworks display and I just shake my head.
There is a right volume level, a number on that control dial which is the right one.
Is it the live level one? Absolutely not. ...It's the one that soothes perfectly the soul,
that strikes that musical chord in each one of us, in balanced harmony.
...One that is healthy and that uses common sense.
Like I and few others said several times before, the live musical event and the playback reproduction from the recording at home, are TWO DIFFERENT things.
We only take a real live instrument like a trumpet or a piano for example as the guide to voice the loudspeaker's drivers.
No way we can reproduce the full audio spectrum, from a live orchestra for example, from an electrical/mechanical device with a crossover(s). ...There is just simply no way, unless you are delusional.
If you want the real thing, go out to get it.
If you want the illusion, stay home, and listen from your stereo gear and loudspeakers.
...Or headphones.
Is it the live level one? Absolutely not. ...It's the one that soothes perfectly the soul,
that strikes that musical chord in each one of us, in balanced harmony.
...One that is healthy and that uses common sense.
Like I and few others said several times before, the live musical event and the playback reproduction from the recording at home, are TWO DIFFERENT things.
We only take a real live instrument like a trumpet or a piano for example as the guide to voice the loudspeaker's drivers.
No way we can reproduce the full audio spectrum, from a live orchestra for example, from an electrical/mechanical device with a crossover(s). ...There is just simply no way, unless you are delusional.
If you want the real thing, go out to get it.
If you want the illusion, stay home, and listen from your stereo gear and loudspeakers.
...Or headphones.
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If audiophile amplifier companies had their volume dials go to "11" like Marshall amps in Spinal Tap, instead of only "10" it would be that much louder.
Of course I agree that the ability to reproduce music faithfully is paramount importance. I was responding to the comments that suggest it is impossible to reproduce the crack of a snare drum or the sound of a trumpet. I just take things to the next level, since that's my nature.
Anyone who has heard my recordings of the GBSO, here in my theater, will attest to the 'you are there-ness' of the experience. Then there's the experiment where I recorded myself playing my violin (please, no Jack Benny jokes) while pacing back and forth in front of the speakers and then play it back and listen with my eyes closed. Or the times when I record live musicians here and then play it back in short order. The interesting thing is that with a properly made recording, there is no hint as to the braun behind the screen. It just sounds like musical instruments playing. Of course, it's hard to overcome the psychological knowledge that no one is standing there 'now' and playing an instrument, so your mind tells you it's a recording.
Even back in 1976, I was making recordings so good, that a jazz drummer and friend of mine, having set up his drum kit in my studio for a while, couldn't tell the difference between one of us hitting a snare or a hi-hat cymbal and the playback. The tape was playing back and in between taped hits, he'd hit the drum the same way with the same inflection and it would be just about indescernable from the taped version.
Electronic music makes more demands than most acoustic music though, and it affords the liberty of playing at louder levels because there is no conception of electronic music played at any particular level. Acoustic music is what it is. A person cannot sing any louder than physiology allows. A flute can't play any louder than the physics determines. A violin, a piano, etc. But some music is interesting when tailored to a particular taste. The music you don't tamper with is orchestral, because it's wildly unnatural to play it any other way than at orchestral levels. Acoustic Jazz is pretty similar. But rock, R&B and many of the pop formats are electronic and traditionally amplified. And for the really fun stuff, I have a dbx500, which would be considered heresey by many here, but I find that it helps fit the music to my 'mental vision' of how I'd like certain songs to sound. Ie., something with a bass line that has no bottom.. thinking bass player using a '59 Fender Bassman with four 10" Jensen speakers. Hit an open E string and you get no fundamental, just overtone. Record that onto a record and there's no satisfaction. But the subharmonic synthesizer triggers on those harmonics and rebuilds the missing fundamental, and suddenly the bass player sounds like he's playing through an Eden D series and the bottom end shakes your guts. Works great on '70s Funk style recordings.
So there's High Fidelity and there is tailoring music to suit your enjoyment tastes. Mine are eclectic. If it doesn't shake me to the core, it doesn't give me that orgasmic pleasure.
Anyone who has heard my recordings of the GBSO, here in my theater, will attest to the 'you are there-ness' of the experience. Then there's the experiment where I recorded myself playing my violin (please, no Jack Benny jokes) while pacing back and forth in front of the speakers and then play it back and listen with my eyes closed. Or the times when I record live musicians here and then play it back in short order. The interesting thing is that with a properly made recording, there is no hint as to the braun behind the screen. It just sounds like musical instruments playing. Of course, it's hard to overcome the psychological knowledge that no one is standing there 'now' and playing an instrument, so your mind tells you it's a recording.
Even back in 1976, I was making recordings so good, that a jazz drummer and friend of mine, having set up his drum kit in my studio for a while, couldn't tell the difference between one of us hitting a snare or a hi-hat cymbal and the playback. The tape was playing back and in between taped hits, he'd hit the drum the same way with the same inflection and it would be just about indescernable from the taped version.
Electronic music makes more demands than most acoustic music though, and it affords the liberty of playing at louder levels because there is no conception of electronic music played at any particular level. Acoustic music is what it is. A person cannot sing any louder than physiology allows. A flute can't play any louder than the physics determines. A violin, a piano, etc. But some music is interesting when tailored to a particular taste. The music you don't tamper with is orchestral, because it's wildly unnatural to play it any other way than at orchestral levels. Acoustic Jazz is pretty similar. But rock, R&B and many of the pop formats are electronic and traditionally amplified. And for the really fun stuff, I have a dbx500, which would be considered heresey by many here, but I find that it helps fit the music to my 'mental vision' of how I'd like certain songs to sound. Ie., something with a bass line that has no bottom.. thinking bass player using a '59 Fender Bassman with four 10" Jensen speakers. Hit an open E string and you get no fundamental, just overtone. Record that onto a record and there's no satisfaction. But the subharmonic synthesizer triggers on those harmonics and rebuilds the missing fundamental, and suddenly the bass player sounds like he's playing through an Eden D series and the bottom end shakes your guts. Works great on '70s Funk style recordings.
So there's High Fidelity and there is tailoring music to suit your enjoyment tastes. Mine are eclectic. If it doesn't shake me to the core, it doesn't give me that orgasmic pleasure.
We are all recording engineers in a kind of way; we fine-tune our systems to sound good.
And we buy the music recordings made by other recording engineers. ...It's just that we EQ them ourselves at home.
Some sounds like crap, but some speakers make them sound good.
And the ones that are done with care and love and true passion and dedication, by true professionals, with a good set of ears, are usually the ones requiring less investment from our part. ...I think that.
Yes, there are many genre of music; from a solo piano to the full orchestra and full choir with organ.
Can one system be good enough for all of that? ...Or is it preferable to have multiple systems for each genre of music; like Jazz, Rock, Classical, New Age, and all? ...Not practical, so we have to compromise, and adjust to where our own musical balance resides; which genre of music we like most.
This is vast, and no one has the real antidote for recreating realistically everything we own (music recordings) and the ones we'll be purchasing tomorrow.
The recordings made fifty years ago, and the ones made ten years ago, and the ones made tomorrow, all have their own particularities, distinctive tones and attributes.
Plus each record label, and music medium have also their own touch. ...Different studio recordings and different recording gear and different recording engineers with their own touch.
Many professional audio reviewers often omit to say which connections they are using (analog or digital, and which one exactly), and which particular music recording from which medium they are playing and listening when reviewing.
Only in the last few years more and more pro reviewers are getting on with the real program. ...But many are way behind, totally lost in the dust.
And some audio mags are simply not worthy of spending our time to read.
And the ones that are more serious, and tell you more in details what it is essential to know, sometimes too they omit important details that were not considered with dedicated attention to the readers. ...Very seldom that a review is totally complete.
The reality is this: Live music can be quite loud, and it will have a serious influence on our hearing, after a certain time, unless well controlled by us in choosing the right venues for the right concerts. ...Just like we do at home in our own systems.
Accurate decibels from live music concerts are provided for larger audiences, so that everyone can be reach, even at the hall's back. At home no need for that; home ain't a concert hall but a very small venue for the music reproduction.
The absolute sound of recreating the most accurately possible the live event in our home simply don't make sense.
Better than Live? ...Yes, and no. ...It all depends of our disposition to the music performance. ..The quality of the live concert, the performance, the artists, the sound, the quality of the music recording, and the quality of our own disposed adjustment. But both the live music concert and the music recording from our playback system at home are two very different things and are not truly related because of the space where they are taking place.
It's the same with public Cinema theaters, and our own home theaters.
Remember Yamaha with their DSP sound fields, Tri-field, Quad-field, 3D sound field, etc., to replicate some real live venues across the world, and Sony with their Cinema sound fields to recreate some particular theaters and studios? ...Lexicon, Meridian, ...?
Fun perhaps to experiment with but how truly far are you willing to go!
This is all over now baby, we are living in a new era; acoustic room treatments, DSP subs, DSP powered speakers, Trinnov, Audyssey, etc., multichannel hi-res music recordings (SACDs and Blu-rays), 5 speakers + one sub, 7 speakers + 2 subs, 9 speakers + 3 subs, 11 speakers + 4 subs, ...
Home, and outside home, are two completely different worlds. By trying to put the outside world into our own home is asking for trouble.
Next.
And we buy the music recordings made by other recording engineers. ...It's just that we EQ them ourselves at home.
Some sounds like crap, but some speakers make them sound good.
And the ones that are done with care and love and true passion and dedication, by true professionals, with a good set of ears, are usually the ones requiring less investment from our part. ...I think that.
Yes, there are many genre of music; from a solo piano to the full orchestra and full choir with organ.
Can one system be good enough for all of that? ...Or is it preferable to have multiple systems for each genre of music; like Jazz, Rock, Classical, New Age, and all? ...Not practical, so we have to compromise, and adjust to where our own musical balance resides; which genre of music we like most.
This is vast, and no one has the real antidote for recreating realistically everything we own (music recordings) and the ones we'll be purchasing tomorrow.
The recordings made fifty years ago, and the ones made ten years ago, and the ones made tomorrow, all have their own particularities, distinctive tones and attributes.
Plus each record label, and music medium have also their own touch. ...Different studio recordings and different recording gear and different recording engineers with their own touch.
Many professional audio reviewers often omit to say which connections they are using (analog or digital, and which one exactly), and which particular music recording from which medium they are playing and listening when reviewing.
Only in the last few years more and more pro reviewers are getting on with the real program. ...But many are way behind, totally lost in the dust.
And some audio mags are simply not worthy of spending our time to read.
And the ones that are more serious, and tell you more in details what it is essential to know, sometimes too they omit important details that were not considered with dedicated attention to the readers. ...Very seldom that a review is totally complete.
The reality is this: Live music can be quite loud, and it will have a serious influence on our hearing, after a certain time, unless well controlled by us in choosing the right venues for the right concerts. ...Just like we do at home in our own systems.
Accurate decibels from live music concerts are provided for larger audiences, so that everyone can be reach, even at the hall's back. At home no need for that; home ain't a concert hall but a very small venue for the music reproduction.
The absolute sound of recreating the most accurately possible the live event in our home simply don't make sense.
Better than Live? ...Yes, and no. ...It all depends of our disposition to the music performance. ..The quality of the live concert, the performance, the artists, the sound, the quality of the music recording, and the quality of our own disposed adjustment. But both the live music concert and the music recording from our playback system at home are two very different things and are not truly related because of the space where they are taking place.
It's the same with public Cinema theaters, and our own home theaters.
Remember Yamaha with their DSP sound fields, Tri-field, Quad-field, 3D sound field, etc., to replicate some real live venues across the world, and Sony with their Cinema sound fields to recreate some particular theaters and studios? ...Lexicon, Meridian, ...?
Fun perhaps to experiment with but how truly far are you willing to go!
This is all over now baby, we are living in a new era; acoustic room treatments, DSP subs, DSP powered speakers, Trinnov, Audyssey, etc., multichannel hi-res music recordings (SACDs and Blu-rays), 5 speakers + one sub, 7 speakers + 2 subs, 9 speakers + 3 subs, 11 speakers + 4 subs, ...
Home, and outside home, are two completely different worlds. By trying to put the outside world into our own home is asking for trouble.
Next.
Well the Fletcher Munson curves suggest that unless we play at the true live level, the EQ will sound wrong - we effectively need one of the old loudness buttons to EQ the bass and treble to make it flat to our hearing, or to pre-EQ the sound specifically for low level listening during the recording/mastering. Most 'audiophile' recordings, I presume, are made with as flat an EQ as possible. Is this why much audiophile music is of the cocktail lounge variety and can be played at the true live level? If people are into types of music that cannot often be played at the true live level, in the absence of tone controls do they tend towards speakers that inherently give the appropriate 'loudness' boost (or cut) anyway? But these will sound wrong for other types of music.
Edit: This discussion is causing me to re-think my previous aversion to tone controls. Maybe I could consider including a Fletcher Munson-derived loudness control that varies with volume setting, or something like that. It would be a black art in setting it, but it might be better than nothing. I vote that true audiophile recordings should always include some sort of absolute level information in the metadata somewhere, so that DSP-based systems can set themselves up for the true live level, or do the Fletcher Munson thing at other levels.
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