Blind Test Challenge Offered by Engineer on Audiogon

[RogerD]

Steve, interesting that you also brought up the old “indistinguishable from Live”...because that is where we will always disagree. Play any live instrument and then a great recording of the same instrument on any system you can mention...and the differences are ALWAYS easy to hear, at least to most listeners.
I have done this kind of an AB for many a’philes, brought my Taylor six string to their Audio room, played it, then we played back a recording of it...or any other guitar piece that you can mention. The Amazing ‘explosion’ of sound into the room from the real instrument ( and explosion is really the only way I can describe it) makes the reproduced sound puny and pathetic in comparison.
Even listening in the hallway, and the real easily trumps eek:. Pun intended) the reproduced. I have done this numerous times, and no one has ever failed the test, is it real or is it Memorex....Lol.

You would have to move a ton of air and have a lot of headroom available even to come close. Another thing is instruments project powerfully into space, really good systems can do this to a degree. You have to have a level of clarity that let’s say a tambourine doesn’t sound way back in the soundstage or a person caughing in the audience is clearly heard. Surprising that on some live orchestral recording you can actually clearly hear the conductor physically exert himself on the ramp up. Daniel Barenboim,Erato 2292-45266-2 and Gustavo Dudamel DG Bruckner Sibelius Nielsen are great examples.
This is what I mean when I comment @ the microphone and has a positive effect on the listening experience to say the least. Still not live, but all the markers to suggest the you are part of the actual experience.

 

[DaveyF]

You would have to move a ton of air and have a lot of headroom available even to come close. Another thing is instruments project powerfully into space, really good systems can do this to a degree. You have to have a level of clarity that let’s say a tambourine doesn’t sound way back in the soundstage or a person caughing in the audience is clearly heard. Surprising that on some live orchestral recording you can actually clearly hear the conductor physically exert himself on the ramp up. Daniel Barenboim,Erato 2292-45266-2 and Gustavo Dudamel DG Bruckner Sibelius Nielsen are great examples.
This is what I mean when I comment @ the microphone and has a positive effect on the listening experience to say the least. Still not live, but all the markers to suggest the you are part of the actual experience.

Some of the very best systems that I have heard do indeed have a ‘fool me’ quality. Palpability is their strength. However, I look at it this way...analogous to the 4K picture on a good TV set, vs...the real live event. That’s really about as close as it gets IMHO.
When we listen to the great system...and don’t compare it directly to the ‘Live’, that’s when we can make the mistake of coming up with a statement like Steve’s above. Easy to do, but somewhat naive and very incorrect once you actually do the AB. IMO.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

“a good recording on my system [is] indistinguishable from live . . . “

Really? From digital on 54” tall speakers?

How often do you compare the sound you hear from your system to the sound you hear from a full-scale, well-sorted system in an acoustically-treated room playing 15ips tape?

 

[DaveyF]

Really? From digital on 54” tall speakers?

How often do you compare the sound you hear from your system to the sound you hear from a full-scale, well-sorted system in an acoustically-treated room playing 15ips tape?

Ron, let’s cut Steve a little slack. He is certainly entitled to his opinion, and I feel sure that he made that statement in good faith. He is like numerous other a’philes who have stated something similar to me. They love their systems, and why not. They are very happy with the SQ that they have achieved..and so they should be. Problem is, that they don’t have the opportunity in most cases to actually do this AB. That is why I have done this experiment for them...and left all of them wondering what to do next, lol.
The answer is to understand the limitations that audio brings to the table...and audio in the home in particular.
No one really expects a full on orchestra,or band,to be able to play in one’s living room or dedicated audio space. The very idea of having seventy or more musicians and instruments in your own home just isn’t really practical for anyone. To add to that, the real instrument is going to be recognized as such by our ears instantly, it is almost an innate ability that we have as human beings.. plus, we as experienced listeners, nevermind ex-pro musicians (like myself), don’t get fooled that easily.
The Absolute Sound is what most of us are hoping to achieve, and yet, I’m pretty sure we all know that it is an elusive goal; and one that probably is not even realistic in the slightest way.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, let’s cut Steve a little slack. He is certainly entitled to his opinion, and I feel sure that he made that statement in good faith. He is like numerous other a’philes who have stated something similar to me. They love their systems, and why not. They are very happy with the SQ that they have achieved..and so they should be. Problem is, that they don’t have the opportunity in most cases to actually do this AB. That is why I have done this experiment for them...and left all of them wondering what to do next, lol.
The answer is to understand the limitations that audio brings to the table...and audio in the home in particular.
No one really expects a full on orchestra,or band,to be able to play in one’s living room or dedicated audio space. The very idea of having seventy or more musicians and instruments in your own home just isn’t really practical for anyone. To add to that, the real instrument is going to be recognized as such by our ears instantly, it is almost an innate ability that we have as human beings.. plus, we as experienced listeners, nevermind ex-pro musicians (like myself), don’t get fooled that easily.
The Absolute Sound is what most of us are hoping to achieve, and yet, I’m pretty sure we all know that it is an elusive goal; and one that probably is not even realistic in the slightest way.

Good point, DaveyF.

Steve’s statement triggered an automatic hyperbole alert.

 

[Al M.]

Some of the very best systems that I have heard do indeed have a ‘fool me’ quality. Palpability is their strength. However, I look at it this way...analogous to the 4K picture on a good TV set, vs...the real live event. That’s really about as close as it gets IMHO.
When we listen to the great system...and don’t compare it directly to the ‘Live’, that’s when we can make the mistake of coming up with a statement like Steve’s above. Easy to do, but somewhat naive and very incorrect once you actually do the AB. IMO.

Well said, Davey. In my recent review of my new speakers on WBF I made a statement to that effect: One thing is that they can sound very convincing with respect to a certain live string quartet sound, and can evoke strong memories of that sound in me. Yet another thing is that, if you would do the actual comparison between live and reproduced sound you would still hear a large difference.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well said, Davey. In my recent review of my new speakers on WBF I made a statement to that effect: One thing is that they can sound very convincing with respect to a certain live string quartet sound, and can evoke strong memories of that sound in me. Yet another thing is that, if you would do the actual comparison between live and reproduced sound you would still hear a large difference.

+1

very well stated

 

[the sound of Tao]

+1 Al and Davey... there are moments when the experiences (especially with the 20.7s) of strikingly evocative moments hit so much ‘like’ live, say sometimes when walking up the stairs that led to my previous Maggie listening space with a bit of live recorded jazz playing and the familiar sense that the acoustic and presence is so reminiscent of the actual perceptual cues when entering a jazz nightclub that the buzz of the live experience overtakes, or then some experiences with playing live solo piano recordings and occasionally even with some opera recordings there can be startling moments of realness that strike, but if then you carry this forward and try and analyse for differences it is only about some of the elements of realness. If a full audit where done then the ultimate differences would appear and the moment itself would be gone.

With a big imho I am not sure any system can turn on and be utterly convincing at every play and be completely indistinguishable from the real thing (and part of me doesn’t really think this would be best as it would perhaps devalue the actual real thing) but getting moments of connection to the real and the music is very much the great takeaway from all our efforts. The occasional moments of a sense of great invoked realness are amongst the most memorable and exciting. For me they include a very sonically naturalistic presentation and then only really in the playing of performances that are built with the deepest musical connection and this is the ingredient that then actually transports you there into the performance itself.

 

[Tango]

+1

very well stated

I am wondering why we are digging deep into this audio thing. May be should just go back to cars and bikes. My $80,000 for tape machine should go to a Hellcat Redeye then .

Tang

 

[DaveyF]

Good point, DaveyF.

Steve’s statement triggered an automatic hyperbole alert.

LOL

 

[Ron Resnick]

+1 Al and Davey... there are moments when the experiences (especially with the 20.7s) of strikingly evocative moments hit so much ‘like’ live, say sometimes when walking up the stairs that led to my previous Maggie listening space with a bit of live recorded jazz playing and the familiar sense that the acoustic and presence is so reminiscent of the actual perceptual cues when entering a jazz nightclub that the buzz of the live experience overtakes, or then some experiences with playing live solo piano recordings and occasionally even with some opera recordings there can be startling moments of realness that strike, but if then you carry this forward and try and analyse for differences it is only about some of the elements of realness. If a full audit where done then the ultimate differences would appear and the moment itself would be gone.

With a big imho I am not sure any system can turn on and be utterly convincing at every play and be completely indistinguishable from the real thing (and part of me doesn’t really think this would be best as it would perhaps devalue the actual real thing) but getting moments of connection to the real and the music is very much the great takeaway from all our efforts. The occasional moments of a sense of great invoked realness are amongst the most memorable and exciting. For me they include a very sonically naturalistic presentation and then only really in the playing of performances that are built with the deepest musical connection and this is the ingredient that then actually transports you there into the performance itself.

Beautifully written! Bravo!

 

[the sound of Tao]

Many thanks as always Ron,
We all hack away at setting up systems and then we hack away at trying to capture the moments and almost defiantly struggle to capture the mist to set it all down into words so we can share... but the expression of a numinous moment is as you’d well know is among the most elusive of struggles. I do love coming here and reading the musical journey of others as we push our boundaries for what simple words can ever do.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Ron have you heard back?

 

[Gregadd]

You need to hear a good recording on my system. Indistinguishable from live, particularly if you are listening through a doorway or in the next room. Great for acoustic guitar etc. When you turn it up and the neighbors think you have a live band in there, you know you have arrived.

Steve N.

Talk about "burying the lead", "Indistinguishable from live." I wish that it is true. Such a claim deserves its' own thread and an open invitation to the members t audition for themselves.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron have you heard back?

I don’t think so.

 

[Atmasphere]

If he ever turns up again, let him know that a fellow engineer can clue him in on how to measure differences in power cords. Might be helpful in case he thinks they all sound the same

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Ralph!

 

[Gregadd]

Their bluff has been called many times. Another reason not to accept the challenge.

 

[Empirical Audio]

That's it, that's what I want short of jamming with friends. ...Hearing friends playing music without having them over. :b

When someone plays the piano @ home the air is filled with notes exploding stars from the sky.
When playing the same recording on hires audio phile (I don't have a turntable recorder), and through three speakers (sometimes two or five or only one; I love experimenting), it sounds nice but I can tell there are few stars missing in the sky.

From another room, the illusion is easier, same as listening to a live music concert from inside a booth or balcony @ a concert hall, forum, stadium, ...the bathroom of a jazz club, blues alley, discotheque.

Piano has to be one of the hardest things to get right. With my Ethernet interface I can now get live piano, even in the same room. I have a grand piano in the other room BTW. Easy to tell the difference between Steinway, Bosendorfer, Yamaha and Baldwin now.

Steve N.