Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Id say name 10 let alone 100 who don’t mind it
Your last paragraph seems to contradict everything you’ve said before
Chinese "Odin" cables
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Id say name 10 let alone 100 who don’t mind it
Your last paragraph seems to contradict everything you’ve said before
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
Well you are very wrong Sir. These companies spend millions every year trying to stop the degradation of their brand and it products and by the WAY ITS AGAINST THE LAW!
The people that are employed you worry about? These are common thieves making money illegally and usually from underpaid workers who are working for criminals.
Gucci , Hermes,Channel, Prada, Fendi, Rolex, Patek Phillipe, Omega, Breiitling etc. etc. actively work with international authorities to stop the theft of their brand name and their products.
You are so Wrong. Did you just make this stuff up?
But the question may also be allowed
with which authorization 5-digit sums for an audio cable are required. In my opinion too many people are making money with it, even though they have nothing to do with the product at all.
Except maybe to transport it from A to B.
or write a lyrical fantasy story about it.
And with moral indignation you should only argue when your own house is in order.
with which authorization 5-digit sums for an audio cable are required. In my opinion too many people are making money with it, even though they have nothing to do with the product at all.
Except maybe to transport it from A to B.
or write a lyrical fantasy story about it.
And with moral indignation you should only argue when your own house is in order.
Nethertheless, if these things are bought, they will reach the second hand market.
Then these fakes will destroy the original because of poor performance.
Some guys in a german forum are very proud that they found a cheap copy of an well known tubeamp. If you remove a sticker from the frontcover, you find the original product name and the famous signature of the designer.
That annoys me very much.
Then these fakes will destroy the original because of poor performance.
Some guys in a german forum are very proud that they found a cheap copy of an well known tubeamp. If you remove a sticker from the frontcover, you find the original product name and the famous signature of the designer.
That annoys me very much.
I've read through this thread a couple of times now and I'm afraid I'm going to add my sixpennyworth. Yes, I'm British and most of what I'm going to say relates more to the UK market.
I honestly seriously believe that this is a much more complex matter than has been discussed so far on this thread. Having been away from Hifi for a few years, I've some observations to make. Bear with me!
1) My favoruite magazine used to be HiFi Choice. Fifteen to twenty years ago it had the most balanced HONEST reviews one could find. I still go back and read reviews for used Hifi that I see for sale - or to read again reviews of kit I've owned. But now it's just one big advert, apart from the obvious fact that everything costs more, there's very little mention of any Hifi more than 3 or 4 years old - and more worryingly everything now gets 5 stars and everything sounds wonderful! Except of course that's clearly nonsense. So how has this happened? Because "vested interests" have taken over, because they're giving their full support to the Hifi industry. This magazine isn't really for music lovers any longer, that's just a facade, it's to sell expensive Hifi. And somehow we all need so much more gear now! The whole Hifi experience has been commodified. Not only has the high end gone into overdrive but it's moved to centre stage.
2) I knew 25 years ago that cabling could make a profound difference to Hifi. That in many cases just changing an interconnect could transform a system. In recent years I've discovered that mains cabling also works wonders. On any forum where people start shouting "snake oil", I'm one of those people saying "forget measurements, just listen".
3) I've also noticed in several modern Hifi mags - quite clearly stated product by product - that virtually all British kit is actually manufactured in China. Designed and marketed here, but made in China.
4) I'm amazed at the stunning variety of Hifi cables of every type now coming out of China, Hong Kong and Taiwan - okay mostly China!
5) The people creating the most fuss about these cheap Chinese products are American high end brands. They have a very privileged lucrative market to protect. There are people in the US who will pay 10k plus sums for mains cables - okay, it's a free world but that has to be a very limited market even in the USA. What annoys me is roundly dismissing the Chinese as manufacturers of worthless knock offs, that their products simply can't be trusted, should be chucked away etc etc - this doesn't ring true I'm afraid, it's just not the case. It's become as silly as the 1960s when people grumbled about things "Made in Japan". Yes, I can see a limited range of copied US brands on Aliexpress, but there are fewer than you'd think - most of what one sees in 2020 are actually Chinese designed cables. Correct me if I'm genuinely wrong here. What I'm saying is that many of the unbranded cables etc are probably far better than you'd think, and are certainly excellent value.
6) In the UK I've recently noticed a small boutique brand label trying to pull a fast one and people in the industry trying to defend them. But the evidence is overwhelming. So what is going on? They're offering several mains cables at what I'd describe as mid-market prices. Unfortunately I can see every cable for sale on Aliexpress. So for example one of their British branded mains cables is priced at £175 - but is just £30 on Aliexpress. "It's a copy!" everybody shouts! No it isn't - it's the British that are pulling a fast one here. All they're doing is importing the cables from China, changing one plug, and adding some nicely logo'd shrinks. The Chinese source has pictures of their workshops, cross sections of the cables, close ups of every part of the cable . The British brand says nothing, there's no mention whatsoever of where they've been made, how they've been constructed, nothing. Instead there's the usual purple prose and plenty of promises. A little googling even showed their early promo shots - complete with the once ubiquitous red MK "hospital" plugs so commonly seen on Chinese mains cables. Now, they have more discreet black MK plugs... not quite such a giveaway.
I'm hearing from other cynics that this company is not the only British cable brand doing something similar. I gather the truth is very simple. If you consider how many cables these firms might actually sell, you couldn't possibly have a plant just producing a few hundred a year. No the Chinese have those plants - they have capacity and capability to produce thousands and thousands, then the economics work - then they sell them to the world.
I notice that even some of the revived retro British brands like Quad and Wharfedale have their speakers made in China now. Complete with a Union Jack glued on the back. Welcome to the 21st century folks.
I honestly seriously believe that this is a much more complex matter than has been discussed so far on this thread. Having been away from Hifi for a few years, I've some observations to make. Bear with me!
1) My favoruite magazine used to be HiFi Choice. Fifteen to twenty years ago it had the most balanced HONEST reviews one could find. I still go back and read reviews for used Hifi that I see for sale - or to read again reviews of kit I've owned. But now it's just one big advert, apart from the obvious fact that everything costs more, there's very little mention of any Hifi more than 3 or 4 years old - and more worryingly everything now gets 5 stars and everything sounds wonderful! Except of course that's clearly nonsense. So how has this happened? Because "vested interests" have taken over, because they're giving their full support to the Hifi industry. This magazine isn't really for music lovers any longer, that's just a facade, it's to sell expensive Hifi. And somehow we all need so much more gear now! The whole Hifi experience has been commodified. Not only has the high end gone into overdrive but it's moved to centre stage.
2) I knew 25 years ago that cabling could make a profound difference to Hifi. That in many cases just changing an interconnect could transform a system. In recent years I've discovered that mains cabling also works wonders. On any forum where people start shouting "snake oil", I'm one of those people saying "forget measurements, just listen".
3) I've also noticed in several modern Hifi mags - quite clearly stated product by product - that virtually all British kit is actually manufactured in China. Designed and marketed here, but made in China.
4) I'm amazed at the stunning variety of Hifi cables of every type now coming out of China, Hong Kong and Taiwan - okay mostly China!
5) The people creating the most fuss about these cheap Chinese products are American high end brands. They have a very privileged lucrative market to protect. There are people in the US who will pay 10k plus sums for mains cables - okay, it's a free world but that has to be a very limited market even in the USA. What annoys me is roundly dismissing the Chinese as manufacturers of worthless knock offs, that their products simply can't be trusted, should be chucked away etc etc - this doesn't ring true I'm afraid, it's just not the case. It's become as silly as the 1960s when people grumbled about things "Made in Japan". Yes, I can see a limited range of copied US brands on Aliexpress, but there are fewer than you'd think - most of what one sees in 2020 are actually Chinese designed cables. Correct me if I'm genuinely wrong here. What I'm saying is that many of the unbranded cables etc are probably far better than you'd think, and are certainly excellent value.
6) In the UK I've recently noticed a small boutique brand label trying to pull a fast one and people in the industry trying to defend them. But the evidence is overwhelming. So what is going on? They're offering several mains cables at what I'd describe as mid-market prices. Unfortunately I can see every cable for sale on Aliexpress. So for example one of their British branded mains cables is priced at £175 - but is just £30 on Aliexpress. "It's a copy!" everybody shouts! No it isn't - it's the British that are pulling a fast one here. All they're doing is importing the cables from China, changing one plug, and adding some nicely logo'd shrinks. The Chinese source has pictures of their workshops, cross sections of the cables, close ups of every part of the cable . The British brand says nothing, there's no mention whatsoever of where they've been made, how they've been constructed, nothing. Instead there's the usual purple prose and plenty of promises. A little googling even showed their early promo shots - complete with the once ubiquitous red MK "hospital" plugs so commonly seen on Chinese mains cables. Now, they have more discreet black MK plugs... not quite such a giveaway.
I'm hearing from other cynics that this company is not the only British cable brand doing something similar. I gather the truth is very simple. If you consider how many cables these firms might actually sell, you couldn't possibly have a plant just producing a few hundred a year. No the Chinese have those plants - they have capacity and capability to produce thousands and thousands, then the economics work - then they sell them to the world.
I notice that even some of the revived retro British brands like Quad and Wharfedale have their speakers made in China now. Complete with a Union Jack glued on the back. Welcome to the 21st century folks.
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You raise a lot of interesting issues. I never found Hi fi Choice very critical of the gear it reviewed. Hi Fi Critic and Hi Fi News were to me better publications and certainly better than the two main American stalwarts of High End. As for your comments about China made goods, it has always been the case that there will always be cretins who think that home made stuff is better than the cheap junk from China (including people living in China ironically who covert . Interestingly Quad enthusiasts said that the ESL speakers are better made now than they ever were in the UK. Even Mcintosh has products made in China now. You will never convert those with prejudices so I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
Well quite David. I thought you might chip in. My Ching Cheng are working nicelyThis makes me laugh, ChingCheng
david
Without going into specifics it is impossible to know whether you are right or not. It is also impossible to say anything about a cable or connector metallurgy based on photos - there are plenty of well documented cases when brass is advertised as copper as only one crude example. Even less is possible to say remotely about dielectric quality. Or even nuts and bolts - are they stainless steel or cheap magnetic iron?
So, you might turn out to be right in one particular case but generally you are not. My limited experience with Chinese cable/connector knock-offs has not been positive at all, even disregarding the trademark issues.
And why on Earth was it necessary to drag Trump into a cable argument?
Sorry but there are legitimate concerns about supporting the CCP and the massive amount of counterfeiting they do.
Saying this is racist or prejudiced, etc. is more than ridiculous, it's just as bad as being racist one's self. The ideology and actions of the CCP and the fact they encourage and allow counterfeit products has NOTHING to do with race and bringing this up is more than a little insulting especially when there are LEGITIMATE issues with racism in the world. When you accuse others of racism when it's NOT the case you diminish the cause of true anti-racists who need all of our support right now, this hurts their cause. IMO, it's abuse of free speech, it's abuse of the membership here, and it's abuse of everyone who has been legitimately affected by racism. EDIT: And it's abuse of those whose livelihood has been negatively affected by counterfeiting.
So, who EXACTLY are you accusing of being racist here? Me? Steve? Anyone who disagrees with CCP policies and counterfeit products? If you're going to accuse folks here of prejudice and being racist, this is VERY serious and I want to know EXACTLY why you think so.
Welcome to WBF!
This is some of the most ridiculous crap I've ever read. You're OBVIOUSLY here with an agenda.
Look, there are MANY poor values and bad actors in the world, it's not confined to audio and not confined to cables. Your arguments are full of flaws and logical fallacies and to be honest, it's insulting to everyone here.
i think if we look at the facts, Audiobum's first post on What's Best Forum points fingers and is full of agendas; the Trump comment notwithstanding. no way around that.
i don't like it. that some agree is besides the point. it's political and inflammatory from a first post.
i don't like it. that some agree is besides the point. it's political and inflammatory from a first post.
+1, as we used to say before the infamous "like's"!
Unfortunately it is the kind of post that brings the forum no way. Besides the facts you point it is factually incorrect and superficial in most aspects, but too inflammatory to be debated in a constructive way.
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