Clarisys Audio Auditorium Loudspeaker

[DasguteOhr]

Acoustic Phase , you lost me there we are discussing electrical phase inherent in any drive system , you do realize phase is an relationship has nothing to do with XOver choice ..


Regards

The acoustic phase indicates how time-accurate (ms) a loudspeaker works across the entire audible frequency range. Only group delay and the step response provide conclusions. With an active xover and digitally imported filter, the acoustic phase can be set pretty perfectly. Neumann was the first to use this on its O 500C loudspeaker. Example: blue without filter, bass with filter, red

A short piece of straight ribbon has almost no reactance (capacitance or inductance) at all...the winding is what makes it inductive (for an inductor or transformer) or capacitive (if wound with sheets of dielectric). A straight ribbon is purely resistive...but has a very low x. What made Apogess hard to drive was a low resistance...and even this was made a lot easier with later generations. Only the Full Range used transformers. The Scintilla was a 1 ohm speaker because it didn't use transformers and that is what made it hard to drive...not because it had a high capacitance and/or phase angles. Later Apogees were all above about 3 ohms. The way that they got the resistance up was by making the traces on the mylar film run like a snake, going up and down several times, while remaining flat to increase the path length greatly. There is no coiling or whatever you think. The only reactance in the system was the crossover elements.

As you can see from the plot above, the Apogee Stage had a pretty flat 3-4 ohm resistance and relatively low phase shift...nothing highly capacitive or inductive going on there.

Look, you seem very confused about this but I know you have good technical competence...sit down and have a think about it before you post again.

Electrostats have high capacitance and are known to make some marginally stable amps oscillate. I know this from firsthand experience when my Transcendent Sound OTLs oscillated like mad on my Acoustats....I rushed to shutdown to prevent meltdown.

In a perfect world, I would agree with you on all points. Unfortunately, a ribbon is not only made of aluminum, but between the two aluminum foils (dipoles) there is a dielectric (e.g. Kapton), basically like a foil speaker cable and a capacitance. In your diagram you can see the positive phase angle increase towards the highs. That is only one reason: the inductive load, the voltage is there before the current (transformer) predominates, as the tweeter ribbon has little surface area and very low capacitance. That is my opinion on the matter; I cannot scientifically prove whether I am correct in what I am saying.I don't have a ribbon.
Postive phase angle

 

[morricab]

The acoustic phase indicates how time-accurate (ms) a loudspeaker works across the entire audible frequency range. Only group delay and the step response provide conclusions. With an active xover and digitally imported filter, the acoustic phase can be set pretty perfectly. Neumann was the first to use this on its O 500C loudspeaker. Example: blue without filter, bass with filter, redView attachment 128167



In a perfect world, I would agree with you on all points. Unfortunately, a ribbon is not only made of aluminum, but between the two aluminum foils (dipoles) there is a dielectric (e.g. Kapton), basically like a foil speaker cable and a capacitance. In your diagram you can see the positive phase angle increase towards the highs. That is only one reason: the inductive load, the voltage is there before the current (transformer) predominates, as the tweeter ribbon has little surface area and very low capacitance. That is my opinion on the matter; I cannot scientifically prove whether I am correct in what I am saying.I don't have a ribbon.
Postive phase angleView attachment 128171

Again, I refer you to the Apogee Stage plot, which had a double sided bass panel but only single sided mid/high ribbon. There is nothing funny with phase angle to suggest a highly reactive speaker. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. I was able to get usefully high output from my Apogee Caliper Signatures with 20 watt SET…they were, like the Stage, a benign 3-4 ohm load.

 

[Alrainbow]

Has anyone measured the capacitance at typical audio freq
Same for inductance
this would yield a true imp as the amp see, s it.
an imp curve is suggestive for any given amp used
But does not necessarily show the true specs of the acoustic conductors with out any cross overs

 

[DasguteOhr]

Has anyone measured the capacitance at typical audio freq
Same for inductance
this would yield a true imp as the amp see, s it.
an imp curve is suggestive for any given amp used
But does not necessarily show the true specs of the acoustic conductors with out any cross overs.

remember if you want to measure ribbon with transformer, it is best to connect 47uf capacitor in front of it otherwise it could happen that your measuring amplifier goes up in flames( low-impedance transformer winding)

 

[Audiohertz2]

remember if you want to measure ribbon with transformer, it is best to connect 47uf capacitor in front of it otherwise it could happen that your measuring amplifier goes up in flames( low-impedance transformer winding)

@2.83V you can measure no issues ...


Regards

 

[Audiohertz2]

Again, I refer you to the Apogee Stage plot, which had a double sided bass panel but only single sided mid/high ribbon. There is nothing funny with phase angle to suggest a highly reactive speaker. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. I was able to get usefully high output from my Apogee Caliper Signatures with 20 watt SET…they were, like the Stage, a benign 3-4 ohm load.

Correct pretty resistive phase angle ...!

 

[Audiohertz2]

The acoustic phase indicates how time-accurate (ms) a loudspeaker works across the entire audible frequency range. Only group delay and the step response provide conclusions. With an active xover and digitally imported filter, the acoustic phase can be set pretty perfectly. Neumann was the first to use this on its O 500C loudspeaker. Example: blue without filter, bass with filter, redView attachment 128167



In a perfect world, I would agree with you on all points. Unfortunately, a ribbon is not only made of aluminum, but between the two aluminum foils (dipoles) there is a dielectric (e.g. Kapton), basically like a foil speaker cable and a capacitance. In your diagram you can see the positive phase angle increase towards the highs. That is only one reason: the inductive load, the voltage is there before the current (transformer) predominates, as the tweeter ribbon has little surface area and very low capacitance. That is my opinion on the matter; I cannot scientifically prove whether I am correct in what I am saying.I don't have a ribbon.
Postive phase angleView attachment 128171

Do drivers have phase shifts without an xover ..?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Here Roy Gregory discusses the conversion of the Auditorium system he reviewed previously from passive cross-over to active cross-over using the CS Port ACN400:

Brilliant Adventure - Gy8

Taking the Clarisys Auditorium Active

gy8.eu

 

[ClarisysAudio]

Do you use autoformer as resisitors exsample
View attachment 128093
I

No, our drivers have the impedance. No transformers, no resistors.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Just came across this thread... what a ride!
Read through every post & comment, can certainly understand the differences in opinions and views etc , but we really don't need the smearing, bickering, he said, she said... whatever maties. There's plenty of nonsense and shenanigans going on in our little & brittle world, just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes! Or should I say, finest tunes!

Definitely good to hear from the Clarisys troop that these speakers are slowly making in-roads and custom orders are in progress, that's excellent news! Which also means that new owners are willing to pay top dollar for such speaker systems. So Clarisys must be doing something right.

As I've mentioned before, these haven't reached here yet... (Aus down unda). So all we have at the moment are the Apogee's being meticulously refurbed up state in Queensland by the G-man. There are about five of us eager roos waiting to hear these but to no avail. I'm heading again to Spore in Aug, perhaps I'll get the chance to experience one of these but not sure since my last trip there in July, didn't come across any.

Congrats & cheers to Byrdparis on your new panel speakers, mighty impressive! Well done mate and do enjoy those fine tunes!
WOOF! RJ

 

[Audiohertz2]

BigDog , why am i looking at a cat

 

[Big Dog RJ]

BigDog , why am i looking at a cat

Haaa, maaate.
Yeah, I used to be a dog lover in a different world in galaxy far far away... but after migrating to Aus, although I adore Wombat's and Koala's, we settled for cats. That kitty fella you see there, very very sadly had to be put down on Feb 25th, just two days after my daughter's b'day and 4 days after the wifey's b'day. His name was Bagel and loved jazz! He was my listening buddy during my late night sessions. So I've chosen Bagel for all things in highend audio.

Cheers, RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Attn: Byrdparis

How are those Auditorium's coming along?
Are they humming yet...?

I'm thinking that you're following the guidelines on the required break-in period. Looking at the sheer size of these, those ribbon panels will most definitely require a fair amount of hours to really open up. Nice one matey, do let us know how it's cooking.

Woof! RJ

 

[byrdparis]

Attn: Byrdparis

How are those Auditorium's coming along?
Are they humming yet...?

I'm thinking that you're following the guidelines on the required break-in period. Looking at the sheer size of these, those ribbon panels will most definitely require a fair amount of hours to really open up. Nice one matey, do let us know how it's cooking.

Woof! RJ

they are absolute amazing. first time i dont even think about "is there anything better"
i just listen to music all day, and let my new electronics comes in...
it is a superb speaker set... end game kinda thing.

thank you.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

they are absolute amazing. first time i dont even think about "is there anything better"
i just listen to music all day, and let my new electronics comes in...
it is a superb speaker set... end game kinda thing.

thank you.

Good to hear mate, it definitely sounds like you've found the one!

Yes, can certainly relate to the "end game factor"... I've found mine as well, so I know the feeling. Cheers to music and fine recordings.
Enjoy those finest tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Attn: Young Skywalker!
I just saw your signature... BTW how's Lord Vader? I was fairly concerned about his asthma... and breathing issues. I'm wondering whether any of the interconnects or power cords could be upgraded for better voicing. Nordost perhaps?

Star wars, and George Lucas's saga, what a legend. Still to this day, kids are going nuts about star wars and whenever I come across an episode, I'm looking for my light Saber!

Young Skywalker, now you Proceed cautiously my son, and may the force be with you.
Cheers to S-W!
Woof! RJ

 

[Alrainbow]

Attn: Byrdparis

How are those Auditorium's coming along?
Are they humming yet...?

I'm thinking that you're following the guidelines on the required break-in period. Looking at the sheer size of these, those ribbon panels will most definitely require a fair amount of hours to really open up. Nice one matey, do let us know how it's cooking.

Woof! RJ

May I ask what’s the chain your using ?

 

[Audiohertz2]

Thats Big Dog , so figure on some kind of Dog Chain ..!

 

[Alrainbow]

Hahahah

 

[Big Dog RJ]

That's a woofty woof'n!!!
Cheers maties, and most of all, enjoy those finest tunes!
Maaate! RJ