Classic Records Reissues Versus Classic Records Reissue Versus Acoustic Sounds Reissues

[Ron Resnick]

Michael Hobson of Classic Records reissued many popular recordings in many variations: 33rpm, 45rpm double-sided, 45rpm single-sides, 180g, 200g, Quiex SV-P, SV-P II, Clarity vinyl, etc. Mike had Bernie Grundman perform a lot of the re-mastering. Mike had his LPs pressed at various pressing plants.

Then, when Chad Kassem of Acoustic sounds bought most of the assets of Classic Records he began pressing new LPs from Hobson's old master lacquers and remastering some of the old releases at Stirling Sound and pressing the records at QRP.

So we have the ability to purchase reissues remastered by different studios using tube versus solid-state electronics chains; we have LPs mastered from the same actual master tapes decades apart; we have LPs pressed by different pressing plants; we have different thicknesses of vinyl; we have 33rpm versus 45rpm we have double-sided LPs versus single-sided LPs; and we have different vinyl formulations. Have I missed any permutation?

I believe we can assume generally that 45rpm is better than 33rpm. I believe we can assume generally that single-sided 45rpm is better than double-sided 45rpm.

What are Classic Records' best reissues among all of the varieties which Mike released?

But there are vexing questions. For example, even if Chad's pressing plant is better than Mike's pressing plant, the tape used to remaster the Acoustic Sounds LP may well have deterioirated sonically in the 25 years since Mike made the Classic Records reissues.

It is likely we cannot generalize. A particular recent Acoustic Sounds reissue may sound better than a particular vintage Classic Records reissue for one or more reasons.

We are fortunate to have at WBF ZeroStarGeneral who quite likely is the world's leading authority on original vinyl pressings. Do we have a reissue expert?

Who has compared the best of the last series of vintage reissues from Classic Records (45rpm, single-sided, Clarity vinyl, 180g or 200g) to the best comparable recent reissues from Acoustic Sounds?

 

[Lee]

This is a complicated answer but I have most of the Classic catalog and a very hefty portion of Chad's releases:

1. The AP stuff is usually better due to improvements in the mastering chain.

2. A lot of the Classic titles have not been done by Chad such as the Zeppelin catalog.

3. Pressing issues: there were some issues with the early 200 gram Classic releases but in my experience it's not as a common as it has been reported.

4. The Classic masterings were done by Bernie Grundman and his colleague Chris Bellman. Both are A+ cutters. Chad uses Kevin Gray, Steve Hoffman and more recently Ryan Smith. All these guys are top notch. Ryan has a cleaner sound while Kevin and Steve have a bit more warmth.

5. Chad bought the Classic inventory but I don't believe he has the rights to press new records from old Classic lacquers. I'm pretty sure that did not happen. In fact, I had heard that Hobson ran afoul of some contractual terms with the labels.

6. Chad's QRP plant is perhaps the best worldwide. He has a real advantage there.

7. Well-cared for tapes don't deteriorate that much. There is some HF loss over time but depends on tape storage conditions.

In my humble opinion...and for the same titles done by both...the ranking looks like this: 1. AP, 2. Classic Clarity vinyl, and 3. Classic non-Clarity vinyl.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Lee, for this detailed and helpful report!

Do you think Ryan’s “cleaner sound” results from his solid-state mastering chain versus the tube mastering chain used by Bernie Grundman?

 

[astrotoy]

Lee, thanks for the details and perspectives. Some more info. (For the pop/rock stuff like LZ, I don't know whether Chad has the rights for those.)

For two albums including the Royal Ballet, Acoustic Sounds says they did use the Grundman lacquers. Most of the Decca master tapes are in Germany (a result of the Polygram purchase of Decca in 1980) and the fact that Decca only licensed most of its engineered albums to RCA and kept ownership. Willem Makkee in Germany did the remastering of most of those albums. A few were owned by RCA (like the Decca engineered Heifetz and Royal Ballet albums). In addition, I saw that Ryan Smith remastered the Heifetz Bruch-Mozart album and Julian Bream Guitar Concertos from 3 track masters, maybe more.

Here is the explanation (from the Music Direct Website) about the Royal Ballet album.

"RCA/Decca Living Stereo Reissue Series featuring 12 RCA Europe Titles on Both 33 1/3 200g LP & Hybrid Stereo SACD!
These 12 RCA Europe titles are some of the most sought-after by collectors. Hard-to-find original mint condition pressings fetch premium prices. And now they're getting the much-lauded Analogue Productions reissue treatment!
Analogue Productions has remastered these historic recordings from the original master tapes. The majority of the titles were remastered by renowned European mastering engineer Willem Makkee while a pair of titles in the series including this LP were mastered by Bernie Grundman. The vinyl releases will be pressed at Quality Record Pressings and plated by Gary Salstron. The LP packaging will be original tip-on jacket facsimiles that precisely duplicate the original cover art."

I agree with your rankings, although the new Analogue Productions series and the 45RPM Classics are very, very close in my opinion. There are some problems with some of the earlier Classics 33 albums. For example, the RCA LSC-1806 Reiner Also Sprach Zarathustra and LSC-2313 Solti Venice are both tipped upward in frequency balance compared to the originals and the 45 and AP versions.

Chad has released five of the RCA Living Stereos (none of the Decca RCAs) on tape, and I have those plus 20 more as safety master tapes or dubs from safety master tapes.

Larry

 

[tima]

Excellent thread.
Could someone point me at a list of the Classic Records released on Quiex Clarity SV-P II Clear Vinyl (200g LP?) ? Purportedly the carbon black is removed to avoid magnetic effects. I vaguely recall there were a v limited number of these (6-7 records?) but not certain.

I have a copy of Classic's Shostakovich Symphony #5 (Kogan, Moscow State Sym) on this clear vinyl and found it played with noticeable clarity. There's also a Scheherazade from the same principals. What are the others, please and thank you?

 

[bonzo75]

The Henryk Szeryng Lalo symphonie espagnole classic records is very good. It plays better than the Decca original of Ricci on most systems though the viloining in the latter is excellent. The various heifetz concertos are quite good as well. Not as good as originals bit quite good. I don't know which of these are on Quiex but you can look up on discogs

 

[Lagonda]

I have “The Little Willies “ Nora Jones country side project Clarity SV-P2
Classic Records release. Not Classical , not even Classic Country, but good
slightly warm sound, and exelent, happy music !

 

[Solypsa]

One slight misnomer here: lacquers are made into stampers. No one is making new pressings from old lacquers as this is a lossy process, if they have the lacquer it is the first...

They might be using old stampers...

 

[astrotoy]

One slight misnomer here: lacquers are made into stampers. No one is making new pressings from old lacquers as this is a lossy process, if they have the lacquer it is the first...

They might be using old stampers...

Thanks for catching my error. Of course the old lacquers have been long gone. Paul Stubblebine once cut a lacquer for me for some tests we were doing and it lasted the few plays we did.

 

[Lee]

Lee, thanks for the details and perspectives. Some more info. (For the pop/rock stuff like LZ, I don't know whether Chad has the rights for those.)

For two albums including the Royal Ballet, Acoustic Sounds says they did use the Grundman lacquers. Most of the Decca master tapes are in Germany (a result of the Polygram purchase of Decca in 1980) and the fact that Decca only licensed most of its engineered albums to RCA and kept ownership. Willem Makkee in Germany did the remastering of most of those albums. A few were owned by RCA (like the Decca engineered Heifetz and Royal Ballet albums). In addition, I saw that Ryan Smith remastered the Heifetz Bruch-Mozart album and Julian Bream Guitar Concertos from 3 track masters, maybe more.

Here is the explanation (from the Music Direct Website) about the Royal Ballet album.

"RCA/Decca Living Stereo Reissue Series featuring 12 RCA Europe Titles on Both 33 1/3 200g LP & Hybrid Stereo SACD!
These 12 RCA Europe titles are some of the most sought-after by collectors. Hard-to-find original mint condition pressings fetch premium prices. And now they're getting the much-lauded Analogue Productions reissue treatment!
Analogue Productions has remastered these historic recordings from the original master tapes. The majority of the titles were remastered by renowned European mastering engineer Willem Makkee while a pair of titles in the series including this LP were mastered by Bernie Grundman. The vinyl releases will be pressed at Quality Record Pressings and plated by Gary Salstron. The LP packaging will be original tip-on jacket facsimiles that precisely duplicate the original cover art."

I agree with your rankings, although the new Analogue Productions series and the 45RPM Classics are very, very close in my opinion. There are some problems with some of the earlier Classics 33 albums. For example, the RCA LSC-1806 Reiner Also Sprach Zarathustra and LSC-2313 Solti Venice are both tipped upward in frequency balance compared to the originals and the 45 and AP versions.

Chad has released five of the RCA Living Stereos (none of the Decca RCAs) on tape, and I have those plus 20 more as safety master tapes or dubs from safety master tapes.

Larry

Larry, thanks so much for the clarification. I did not know about the reuse of the stampers.

 

[Lee]

Excellent thread.
Could someone point me at a list of the Classic Records released on Quiex Clarity SV-P II Clear Vinyl (200g LP?) ? Purportedly the carbon black is removed to avoid magnetic effects. I vaguely recall there were a v limited number of these (6-7 records?) but not certain.

I have a copy of Classic's Shostakovich Symphony #5 (Kogan, Moscow State Sym) on this clear vinyl and found it played with noticeable clarity. There's also a Scheherazade from the same principals. What are the others, please and thank you?

I can weigh in on this in terms of the sonic differences. There was a nice lady who worked for Hobson who sent me the Blue Train carbon black and clarity sides of the same track. The Clarity side was more clear and dynamic. Wasn't even close really. Sadly I missed a chance to buy a bunch of the uber rare Clarity box sets during a trip to Twist and Shout around 2008 or so while I was in town for RMAF. They are stupid expensive now on ebay but they are very good.

 

[astrotoy]

I was one of the original subscribers to the Classics RCA Living Stereo reissues. Even had a very low number (IIRC under 100) on my records. I bought the boxes that they sold, etc,etc. However, what surprised me, after all the hoopla and getting people to be early adopters, they never followed up with even telling the early adopters about the repressings, 45's, different vinyl offerings, etc. I sometimes would read about them in Absolute Sound, but it was hit and miss. Not sure what their marketing plan was, but it didn't seem to be coherent. When I started, it was mainly because it was a way to get high quality reissues of many very rare and expensive records that had both praise for artistic merit and sound quality. Certainly at that time it was the only way most people would ever see one of these records, let alone be able to afford them. Now that Chad has come along, with most being remastered and pressed by his own QRP, we have another go at these great recordings.

There are still quite a few of the original Classics RCA's that Chad has not reissued (many of them are the Decca engineered ones which reverted back to Decca and whose tapes are in Germany). I don't know the condition of those tapes, but that may be part of the problem. We'll have to see.

Larry

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think the marketing plan was, in retrospect anyway, very clear: generate a lot of hoopla and interest to get you to buy the initial 33rpm 180g release, then get you to buy a 33rpm 200g release, then get you to buy a 45rpm release 180g release, then get you to buy a 45rpm 200g release, then get you to buy a 45rpm single-sided release, and then get you to buy the entire cycle again on Quiex vinyl, and then get you to buy the entire cycle again on Clarity vinyl.

 

[Folsom]

I prefer 33rpm. And my Royal Ballet sounds really nice. I generally don’t prefer new pressings but it was done well enough I don’t have to spend $1500 for an original. And I prefer 180gr, or even less often. I have found the opposite problem where thicker vinyl develops a small warp, and thinner stuff often does not unless mistreated.

Othe titles under these labels, in general I prefer the warmer mastered, 33rpm. I think Lee did a nice job on comments.