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[lordcloud]

I don't know that I agree that speaker positioning needs to be changed when changing a component. For me it makes more sense to change the component and not the speaker placement.

In my experience, there is a place in the room where the speaker interacts with the room in a way that would be optimal for what you're trying to achieve. I don't know that I would want to mess with that because of a change in cables that disrupts the frequency response.

 

[Gregm]

In my experience, there is a place in the room where the speaker interacts with the room in a way that would be optimal for what you're trying to achieve.

Same experience.
Depending on where your listening position, there are optimum points to place the speakers -- that's the theory. I have subjectively confirmed this in practise.

 

[JiminGa]

1000% agree

 

[KPC]

Sooo, to save my lower back I have to change cables less often or get lighter speakers?

 

[Al M.]

Please don't shoot the messenger as this may sound crazy to some, but you should really consider modifying your speaker placement to optimize for each cable before doing your listening comparisons.

A couple of years ago, we did a speaker cable shootout between two well respected high end cable brands, with a highly regarded regarded setup professional present to optimize the speaker set up for each cable.

The results were remarkable: There was a significant difference in how the system sounded using cable 2 in the speaker position optimized for cable 1, than how the system sounded using cable 2 in the speaker position optimized for cable 2. Using cable 2 in the speaker position optimized for cable 2 sounded so much better than using cable 2 in the speaker position optimized for cable 1. And vice-a-versa.

Our preferences would have been very different if we had left the speaker positions unchanged between switching cables. Caveat Emptor.

Agreed. You may need to change speaker positioning upon changes of components, including cables.

While there is an optimal more or less small *area* for each speaker within a room, the optimal *spot* within that area may change with switching a component.

 

[Gregm]

Sooo, to save my lower back I have to change cables less often or get lighter speakers?

Or move your listening chair to where you get the best (clearest ) low frequency response (I'm assuming the chair weighs less than the speakers...)

 

[cmarin]

Agreed. You may need to change speaker positioning upon changes of components, including cables.

While there is an optimal more or less small *area* for each speaker within a room, the optimal *spot* within that area may change with switching a component.

Two interesting observations based on my personal experience (of course ymmv):

1. It is eye opening to see how even minute changes within a small area can make to the sound of a system. It’s hard to believe unless you actually experience it first hand. And when I say changes, I mean not only translations along the x y and z axes, but also rotations about them.

2. I upgraded my DAC from the totaldac d12 mkII to the totaldac sublime. The final optimal speaker position for the sublime turned out to be several feet behind and further out than the previous optimal position for the MKII - a significant change.

 

[KPC]

Agreed. You may need to change speaker positioning upon changes of components, including cables.

While there is an optimal more or less small *area* for each speaker within a room, the optimal *spot* within that area may change with switching a component.

If I move to a smaller room, would it shrink the *area* and thus the amount of work in moving the speakers with my aching back?

 

[Ron Resnick]

2. I upgraded my DAC from the totaldac d12 mkII to the totaldac sublime. The final optimal speaker position for the sublime turned out to be several feet behind and further out than the previous optimal position for the MKII - a significant change.

Do you have a theory as to why an upgrade of a DAC from the same company would occasion a loud speaker repositioning of several feet?

 

[JiminGa]

There is one optimal place for speakers. Every millimeter counts. Changing cables/DACS and possibly altering frequencies a minimum amount doesn’t change this. You place the speakers where it minimizes the rooms interaction with them. You are trying to take the room out of the equation as much as possible. It doesn’t matter what you play through them.

 

[cmarin]

There is one optimal place for speakers. Every millimeter counts. Changing cables/DACS and possibly altering frequencies a minimum amount doesn’t change this. You place the speakers where it minimizes the rooms interaction with them. You are trying to take the room out of the equation as much as possible. It doesn’t matter what you play through them.

Do you have a theory as to why an upgrade of a DAC from the same company would occasion a loud speaker repositioning of several feet?

JimiinGa,

Seeing a master setup expert at work multiple times and hearing the results is believing.

I don’t mean to be be oppositional or say that you are wrong, all I can tell you is my direct experience contradicts your statement that “Changing cables/DACS and possibly altering frequencies a minimum amount doesn’t change this [there is one optimal place for speakers]”.

I don’t know a lot, but I know that there are a lot of factors that affect what you hear other than the room.

Perhaps that experience is unique to my room. Or I’m imagining things. Those are possibilities. But my experience has been repeated every time I’ve had my system setup after an equipment change, and it is shared by a number of others who have significant standing/experience in the audio industry.

Perhaps the key is your qualifier “altering frequencies a minimal amount”. I believe there are numerous examples of messages from numerous posters here on WBF where component changes have resulted in a not “minimal amount” in the sonic results.

And frankly, I only engage a set up expert after component changes, and wouldn’t do so if the components changes resulted in “minimal” sonic effects.

So perhaps the common ground is that the optimal speaker setup will change if the component change results in a “non-minimal” effect.

Ron,

I don’t have a theory why this is the case. For that we’d have to reach out to the fellow who set up my system (a well respected setup expert that is used by a number of high end manufacturers) and the DAC manufacturer..

But what I can tell you, is that after having set up my system previously, he returned and couldn’t understand why the system was off. I had written it off as still being in a settling-in period.

He asked me whether I had changed the system in any way or moved the speakers.

I told him I hadn’t, and explained the component changes I’d made to the Extreme server. He couldn’t understand it.

Then I remembered I had upgraded the DAC to the sublime. He was relieved, and laughed it off, because the other possibility was that he’d messed up the setup during his last visit!

In the end, the new optimal position of the speakers was very different than the previous setup and resulted in a non-insignificant positive impact in the emotional engagement and refinement relative to the previous position.

A setup expert makes the current system setup sound the best it can.

The only explanation I can give you is that the sonic impact of a component change depends not just the interaction of the room, but all the upstream components and systems - and their interactions.

And every “optimal” setup is only one of many possible local optima because the system and room interactions are so complex, and the personal sonic preferences of the clients can be so different.

 

[JiminGa]

We will agree to respectfully disagree. What matters most is the joy music brings to us not the science behind it. It’s taken me 50 years ( I’m 64) of learning and keeping an open mind to come to this conclusion

 

[Al M.]

JimiinGa,

Seeing a master setup expert at work multiple times and hearing the results is believing.

I don’t mean to be be oppositional or say that you are wrong, all I can tell you is my direct experience contradicts your statement that “Changing cables/DACS and possibly altering frequencies a minimum amount doesn’t change this [there is one optimal place for speakers]”.

I don’t know a lot, but I know that there are a lot of factors that affect what you hear other than the room.

Perhaps that experience is unique to my room. Or I’m imagining things. Those are possibilities. But my experience has been repeated every time I’ve had my system setup after an equipment change, and it is shared by a number of others who have significant standing/experience in the audio industry.

Perhaps the key is your qualifier “altering frequencies a minimal amount”. I believe there are numerous examples of messages from numerous posters here on WBF where component changes have resulted in a not “minimal amount” in the sonic results.

And frankly, I only engage a set up expert after component changes, and wouldn’t do so if the components changes resulted in “minimal” sonic effects.

So perhaps the common ground is that the optimal speaker setup will change if the component change results in a “non-minimal” effect.

I agree, and you are not imagining things. A very small change in frequency response or mode of presentation, induced by a new component, may require a change in speaker set-up in order to optimize for the change in signal output.

 

[JiminGa]

“Signal output” doesn’t fundamentally change the speaker room interaction. This is the point in space which maximally removes the room from the equation. You can vary from this but it will be a trade off. I guess where we differ is that you think what you gain is more than you lose and I generally do not. It might just be that we enjoy slightly different presentations of our music. It’s all good. He’s not imagining things. Changing components changes the sound and so does moving speakers.

 

[Gregm]

“Signal output” doesn’t fundamentally change the speaker room interaction. This is the point in space which maximally removes the room from the equation.

Yes, i.e. provides the most linear (or, least non-linear) FR.

You can vary from this but it will be a trade off. I guess where we differ is that you think what you gain is more than you lose and I generally do not.

Yes of course because reproduced wound is not perfect, so we tune it to our ears' best compromise...
I think that when someone says, "changing the DAC / wire / etc led me to re-optimise the speaker positioning, what that person actually refers to (myself included, no doubt) is - in literal language - the following:
changing the DAC / wire / etc... filled the dip i had between (for example) 150 - 300 Hz, so the previous speakers position which was a compromise because of this dip, had to be corrected.

In other words, if a source introduces a pleasant peak in the mid bass, one might have to move the speakers to rediscover a sound that appeals to one's ears.

I think it's a practical - rather than philosophical - matter. In theory, and all other things being equal, the is one optimal placement in a room for a sound source. We assume of course, that the sound emanating from said source, is perfectly linear without distortion of any kind.
Which it isn't.

 

[JiminGa]

I get what you’re saying. Makes sense. Just remember that changing position changes ALL frequencies relationships to the room. Not just the “troublesome” range you refer to. That sets up another string of compromises which I personally can’t live with. This is just me. I’m sure plenty of others get more joy from the repositioning which lets each of us personalize our experience in a way which makes us happy. It’s all good.