Comparative Listening Tests

[KlausR.]

Do you have the hardcover or ebook?

The technical university next door has the hardcover, but since I'm not intending to run controlled tests myself so far I did not see a real need to consult thet book, the AES papers are sufficient for the time being.

 

[NorthStar]

 

[DaveC]

853, thanks! You write so much better than I ever could. I think you can break it off with Amir, you've taken a lot of time and effort trying to make it work, but you can't help those that don't want help...

 

[jkeny]

The technical university next door has the hardcover, but since I'm not intending to run controlled tests myself so far I did not see a real need to consult thet book, the AES papers are sufficient for the time being.

Two technicians discussing the books they have seen (I won't say read, never mind understood, as that would be too presumptuous based on the evidence here) - hilarious!!.
You can lead a horse to water but ............

 

[Steve williams]

or indeed, an intellectually dishonest and myopic form of zealotry masquerading as “science”.

Indeed

FWIW the more he tries to dig himself out, the more we ALL see him for exactly that type of person you mention here. The reality is none of us give a rat's ass about any of his comments because he is the epitome of the type of person you describe here. After all isn't he saving us from ourselves. His arguments are old and dull and we've heard every one of them. For me it was this thread that exposed the Emperor for his intellectual dishonesty. Let him pedal that in his neck of the woods. I was astonished to read here that Mivera's posts at ASR were doctored and edited to make Mivera look like a fool. The way I saw it, Mivera totally outclassed Amir. Then when Amir has no answer for Mivera he has the thread closed. Now who in this thread is the one who is intellectually dishonest? Was it Amir who recently posted that when you come to ASR you better know your science. Now shouldn't we be pointing our fingers at Amir who has yet to admit his recent errors as well as doctoring Mivera's posts on ASR to discredit Mivera. To me this points out the very obvious.

 

[Folsom]

Steve, the irony is the tech experts don't agree, either.

There's no point in bringing engineering (not really science) to ASR, if it won't be understood. Worse, if it's going to be argued for winning an arguments sake.

 

[Robh3606]

This is where in audio there has been an epic fail over the last 70 years, IMO. Engineering without human factor consideration and turning off controlled observation and turning primarily to meter reading.

Hello Moricab

I am a little surprised by that statement. Why do you think it has been an epic failure when all you have to do is look at the average gear in the late 50's compared to now. You really think there has been no real improvement?? The improvement in speakers alone is blatantly obvious just in the past 20-30 years.

Rob

 

[jkeny]

Steve, the irony is the tech experts don't agree, either.

There's no point in bringing engineering (not really science) to ASR, if it won't be understood. Worse, if it's going to be argued for winning an arguments sake.

What tech experts? You mean the technicians on ASR (I exempt Ken Newton & Jakob1863 from that moniker) ? That's what happens when you have no experience building audio devices - you only have stock answers from courses & books (which you think is science)
As Mike is saying on ASR to Amir - go talk to the real experts, the ones like Putzeys, Rutgers, who have built these digital audio devices & know about clocks.

 

[853guy]

853, thanks! You write so much better than I ever could. I think you can break it off with Amir, you've taken a lot of time and effort trying to make it work, but you can't help those that don't want help...

Hi DaveC,

I know I should. But he has a car.

853guy

 

[jkeny]

Hi DaveC,

I know I should. But he has a car.

853guy

Oh, you're so fickle - it's just his equipment that attracts you

 

[NorthStar]

Hi DaveC,

I know I should. But he has a car.

853guy

They are also working on tomorrow's bikes:

 

[amirm]

Dude, are you kidding? I said only eight posts ago that I “fully agree with Ron’s statement, and that yes, we do wish to discuss your explicit bias and deficiency of intellectual honesty” (Post #450). You really need trying to read beyond the first line if we're going to go steady. As it is, I'm already thinking of breaking it off with you.

You did? Well, lesson to be learned here is to not overload your posts with boatload of personal crap when you are being invited to comment about audio from our forum co-owner no less. A simple reply with, "sure I agree with what Ron is saying" would have gone a long way toward me seeing you as a constructive member, than one here to just add noise to the discussion.

That aside, I will be looking to your future posts to see if this agreement is reflected in them. We are getting something done finally.

Anyone else wants to agree or disagree with Ron?

 

[jkeny]

Amir, What part of PeterA's post do you need help with to understand?

"You are incorrect to describe the event as one test. You are also incorrectly describing how I failed and not acknowledging that I did complete and pass two of the three given tests.

I can not concluded based on this one evening with 3 or 4 tests that I have done enough of these kinds of tests for soberness to set it and realize how dumb I really am in this regard.​

Intellectual honesty is needed on your part.
Your intellectual dishonesty is shown by your focus on one test out of 3 - the only test (an ABX test) that PeterA got a null result - the 2 other tests confirmed his sighted listening results, I believe

 

[Folsom]

What tech experts? You mean the technicians on ASR (I exempt Ken Newton & Jakob1863 from that moniker) ? That's what happens when you have no experience building audio devices - you only have stock answers from courses & books (which you think is science)
As Mike is saying on ASR to Amir - go talk to the real experts, the ones like Putzeys, Rutgers, who have built these digital audio devices & know about clocks.

You got the idea. Add Opus to that list; he's more influential than he'll let on in the audio world.

 

[jkeny]

You got the idea. Add Opus to that list; he's more influential than he'll let on in the audio world.

Yep, he too!

 

[amirm]

Amir, What part of PeterA's post do you need help with to understand?

He misread my post but that doesn't matter. What matters is that this thread is created by Ron, quoting Peter word for word, and then expressing strong concern regarding method of evaluation by subjectivists:

In a post on Al M.’s thread “ZenWave Audio D4 Interconnect” Peter A., describing a comparative listening test at Al’s house, wrote:

. . . Despite your good descriptions of the differences between the D4 and Monster cables, I remain somewhat confused by the events of the recent audition. You essentially conducted an A/B/X test for me and David. Despite me being completely sure that the X cable was the same as B, I failed that test. That opened my eyes to the realities of such tests. Then, later in the evening, when we did the test again with different music, you switched the test without telling us. It was basically an A/B/C test, because you rotated the Tube Traps when we were outside of the room for the X part, changing it into C. That only confused me more.

[...]

I think it is important to attempt to be intellectually honest. I want to commend Peter for being intellectually honest about a confusing situation in which he found himself with the A/B and A/B/X testing of Al’s interconnect cables.

[...]
So, after reading Peter’s post, I ask myself: “If Peter gets confused in a test like this, what do we, individually and collectively, even think we are doing when we compare products and listen for changes in our systems?”

I have no answers, only questions. There are a lot of opinions about the merits and problems of A/B and A/B/X testing, and about the pros and cons of short-duration A/B and A/B/X comparisons versus long duration, spend-weeks-with-a-product listening with no back-and-forth comparison.

I think Peter’s experience inclines me to view even more skeptically long-duration "comparisons." As Peter wrote, the comparison, even in the short-duration time-frame of an A/B/X test, became a test of “recall ability,” not “listening for differences.” So what realistic hope does an audiophile have trying to remember how his system used to sound after he has been listening to a new component for weeks or even months?

Are we partially, or even completely, deluding ourselves when an audiophile visits a friend’s house to listen to music, and then returns weeks later to see if the audiophile can hear a difference wrought by some change the friend made in his system? (Let's not even think about the audiophile's differences in mood, restfulness, alcohol consumption, hunger level, stress, etc., between the two listening sessions.) After listening again weeks later, the audiophile reports hearing a significant difference in response to a minor tweak in his friend’s system (“the soundstage opened up significantly,” “the midrange glare is much less evident,” the noise floor is much lower,” "the highs are more extended," etc.). But if we can't even make reliable comparisons during the course of a single day how can we be possibly think that we can remember accurately what our friend’s system sounded like weeks ago? (Of course, critics of A/B and A/B/X tests argue there are problems and inherently confusing issues with short-term comparison tests which are solved by long-duration auditioning.)

I am not suggesting we stop auditioning components, stop pursuing tweaks or stop listening for significant or subtle differences. I am suggesting that perhaps we should be more realistic and circumspect -- and more skeptical -- about our expressed conclusions. We should attempt to do the best we can do, and to try to remain as intellectually honest as possible, but perhaps we should acknowledge that we may be fooling ourselves about some of our listening conclusions.​

If Peter thinks Ron has mis-stated the events that led to such strong concerns on his part, he should address Ron, not me. I am simply agreeing with Ron that such tests easily produce faulty results.

Since you are volunteering to help, do you understand Ron's concerns and do you agree with them?​

 

[stehno]

Who are going to educate our children? Who are we going to follow? Who can we trust?

Reading this thread, among many other threads of the Internet, I'm looking for a balance. It is certainly not easy when there is such discord.
I'll be honest, I am @ lost. If someone is wrong, does it make someone else right? ...And vice versa.

A balance of human dignity in our civilization is in need, IMO
______

WBF & ASR, only two forums among a vast divided ocean of opposing views.
I remember when I got my first transistor AM mono radio; it was perfect. It was a present from Grand Ma for my sixth birthday.
And the adventure begun ...

We're all like children playing with our toys in the same sandbox with no direction home.

........

? Hawking: Actually, We Have 100 Years to Escape Earth ? Stephen Hawking is a scientist, yes and should we weight what he's saying?
1,000 years from now, ...it's alarming to contemplate life on Earth, very.

• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ephen-Hawking-says-leave-Earth-100-years.html
? http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/799719/Professor-Stephen-Hawking-end-of-the-world-brian-cox

This is all fresh news; check that last link's interview ? ...from express.co.uk/news/science

100 years, eh? That Stephen - he's forever the optimist.

Actually, if you put any weight whatsoever into the top 10 or 20 or 50 headlines at this energy news web site, I'd venture we have maybe 5 year to 10 years tops to leave this planet. Many experts have already said in the past several years, if you haven't left by now, it may already be too late.

http://enenews.com/

 

[NorthStar]

If we compare scientists among themselves they don't always agree, or come to the same conclusion. ...Be it about space, our planet or in audio, etc.

Stephen Hawking provides theories for the survival of humanity and living force. It's up to us to make of them whatever we want to.
Looking back @ man's history is a good measuring gauge to visualize the future. We keep expanding; it's in the nature of life, of our species.
The rate @ which we expand our population won't sustain us forever; we'll run out of gas, water, food.
The way we expand in some of the largest cities on Earth is polluting us @ alarming proportion.
We have our set of priorities wrong. We need to invest on survival, not annihilation. And space is as good as any other place on Earth, any large cities.

I see it as an honest intellectual vision. Let's compare our world today from the one of a thousand years ago. And the more we populate this planet the more heat we generate and the more ice we are melting. ...Everything goes faster, and the end approaches faster too.

I think. :b

* Thanks for that link; it is one of my great concerns. The more I learn the more I can change things for the better.

 

[stehno]

If we compare scientists among themselves they don't always agree, or come to the same conclusion. ...Be it about space, our planet or in audio, etc.

Stephen Hawking provides theories for the survival of humanity and living force. It's up to us to make of them whatever we want to.
Looking back @ man's history is a good measuring gauge to visualize the future. We keep expanding; it's in the nature of life, of our species.
The rate @ which we expand our population won't sustain us forever; we'll run out of gas, water, food.
The way we expand in some of the largest cities on Earth is polluting us @ alarming proportion.
We have our set of priorities wrong. We need to invest on survival, not annihilation. And space is as good as any other place on Earth, any large cities.

I see it as an honest intellectual vision. Let's compare our world today from the one of a thousand years ago. And the more we populate this planet the more heat we generate and the more ice we are melting. ...Everything goes faster, and the end approaches faster too.

I think. :b

* Thanks for that link; it is one of my great concerns. The more I learn the more I can change things for the better.

It's not so much that we're over-populating the planet. It's more like we're all just trying to living near South Coast Plaza i.e. the same shopping mall.

BTW, perhaps you didn't check the link I provided. It has nothing to do with running out of energy. Think new mini-Chernobyl re-occurring and being dumped into the Pacific ocean every day since March 11, 2011 and ain't nobody gettin' outta' this one.

 

[NorthStar]

Oh but I did check your link ( http://enenews.com/ ), I thanked you for it. I started a thread some while back, with dramatic videos. ...

One post had this link: https://www.infowars.com/fukushima-radiation-detected-on-u-s-west-coast/

Another thread; Documentary Heaven (Food for your brain) had this post:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...or-your-Brain)&p=440811&viewfull=1#post440811