Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[sbnx]

This topic has been bounced around in several threads. More recently I have been documenting some of the setup steps I have been going through with the Avangarde Trios G3's. But since overall setup optimization is more general I thought I would post some information for the interested reader.

Over on his GY8 website Roy Gregory recently wrote a few pages about the setup of a pair of WIlson AlexxV along with the partnering CH Precision electronics. I have pasted the link below. The discussion starts at the bottom of page 5 and goes through page 8. I think Roy's discussion shines a light on two things.

First is the huge amount of effort some manufactures are putting into getting good sound at a show. It takes a lot of effort for all exhibitors to box the gear, ship it, get it to the room, unbox it, assemble the system to get sound and then put in some effort for a stereo presentation. But some really are going the extra mile in an attempt to illustrate what is possible with stereo reproduction. IMO this should be the norm and we should have fewer shows so all the manufacturers and dealers aren't completely exhausted from this effort. It pains me to listent to a pair of $100K+ speakers and a system the is approaching or well exceeding $500k that really doesn't sound all that great. Then you have the youtubers or reviewers writing about how good some of these systems sound. I am not sure exactly what they are listening to.

The second point he makes is the minute detail that is put into fully optimizing a pair of Wilson AlexxV speakers. For example, very few people and maybe only one person would loosen the gantry to make perfectly align it and retorque to spec. Then using a laser level to ensure that each module is perfectly level and aligned within the gantry. I believe most would simply "assemble" the speaker by putting the modules in place and connecting the terminals. This kind of attention to micro detail is what can really push the performance envelope of a system.

Hits (And Misses…) Munich High End – 2023 - Page 5 of 28 - Gy8

Updated 7th of June - TLA, Rockport and Clarysis

gy8.eu

The article also discusses some of the very fine adjustments made to the speakers to get them perfectly aligned to the listener. By this I don't just mean the spike/ladder adjustments for the modules mentioned in the Wilson manual , but rather very, very small adjustemens in the attitude (Toe-in, Rake & Azimuth) of the oveall speaker. A few years ago I posted a survey on what people would consider a small movement to the speaker. Only a handfull of people responded to that and some of the posts following were fairly contensious. I am not sure why this is other than a lack of having the experience of witnessing the result. The answer I would give in the survey is that if you can see the speaker move it has likely moved too far. It still completely baffles me how going over to the speaker and giving it the smallest tap can alter the sound. And not just alter it, but change the sound in a very significant way. Of course this only happens when it gets to the pointly end of the stick in the setup process. At the start of the process movements do occur in increments of 1/2" to 1" but very quickly that drops to 1/4 to 1/16" and then to less than 1mm and then down to the point where one can not physically observe that the speaker moved. The way I relate to this is the higher up in frequency you go the shorter and shorter the wavelength gets. To adjust the time arrival at higher frequencies involves an ever decreasing size of adjustment. Roy is trying to convey this sense of "preciseness" in his article. However, it is very hard to understand unless someone has seen this being done and heard the sonic response.

But one doesn't have to go the Nth degree to get improved results in their setup. Roy wrote two articles about 10 years ago that help in providing a guide for those that want to improve their sound for free. I don't know if anyone has seen these so I am posting the links below. The first is a how-to guide that walks the reader through what the various adjustments are and what the expected sonic response is to that adjustment. The second is a write-up of of a demo he did at one of the audio shows (RMAF). In this article he writes about using a group of people as observers and judges for the sound. He then uses a few music selections and goes through the setup process showing the impact of each move. This process was pretty rough (meaning there were no super fine adjustments) and good results were still obtained.

I can't imagine spending $130K on a pair of speakers and not wanting them to perform at the absolute top end of what they are capable of with the given electronics and room. A lot of audiophiles are stopping far short of achieveing the full potential of their system. Perhaps this is becasue they have not heard a solid reference point. For example, I visited a dealer this past weekend and listened to the MBL extreme system. One of the things I listened to was that same piano section from Beethoven's first piano concerto that I recorded in the youtube video. The piano runs sounded completely smeared. Now, this is at a dealer and not a show. Why are they demo'ing a system that costs a gazillion dollars that has such poor sound quality? Again, I think it is becasue the industry as a whole has a poor reference point and we all have just been accepting subpar sound.

https://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/speaker_placement.pdf

Throwing Open the Window on System Performance: Achieving Proper Speaker Placement - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

As a note, I have no affiliation with these individuals other than I know who they are and I know their work. No one asked me to write this and I get no compensation in any form. The only intent of the post is for those interested in exploring the posibilites of increased performance through the very detailed process of speaker placement. Although, I will admit I did rant a little about dealers and poor setup of high end system.

 

[adyc]

Assume the room is big enough, my question is that are listening position or speaker position kind of independent? Should one find the listening position first? Or speaker position first and adjust listening position accordingly?

 

[Another Johnson]

Assume the room is big enough, my question is that are listening position or speaker position kind of independent? Should one find the listening position first? Or speaker position first and adjust listening position accordingly?

The Wilson way is to find the speaker positions first. They try to find (based on listening to their own voice as they maneuver around the room in a defined pattern) what they call “the zone of neutrality.” The listener position follows. With Wilsons, once the speaker positions and the listening position are chosen, then the assorted drivers and their boxes are adjusted for time alignment.

With Martin Logan you also find the speaker positions first. Their method uses geometry rather than hunting. The listening position follows. See pages 17, and 24 to 27 in this manual.

https://www.martinlogan.com/uploads/documents/manuals/manual_theos.pdf

Both the Wilson and Martin Logan approaches work for other brands too, except for Wilson’s time alignment strategy which is dependent on Wilson components.

 

[sbnx]

Jim smith advocates that finding the place to sit is the first thing to do.

As @microstrip pointed out in another thread a lot of people really dont have a lot of flexibility on where to sit. This is understandable. I helped one person where moving the listening position back 16” was a massive improvement in bass. It just depends on how much room a person has to play with. But optimization can occur within the parameters set by either the room size or domestic considerations.

 

[sbnx]

I really enjoy the Wilson video posted above. Dave Wilson was an explorer. It took true genius to observe and quantify what he termed the “zone of neutrality”.

 

[microstrip]

The Wilson way is to find the speaker positions first. They try to find (based on listening to their own voice as they maneuver around the room in a defined pattern) what they call “the zone of neutrality.” The listener position follows. With Wilsons, once the speaker positions and the listening position are chosen, then the assorted drivers and their boxes are adjusted for time alignment.

With Martin Logan you also find the speaker positions first. Their method uses geometry rather than hunting. The listening position follows. See pages 17, and 24 to 27 in this manual.

https://www.martinlogan.com/uploads/documents/manuals/manual_theos.pdf

Both the Wilson and Martin Logan approaches work for other brands too, except for Wilson’s time alignment strategy which is dependent on Wilson components.

Yes, we have many formula and recipes to define the positions - I would immediately add Sumiko and the Cardas to your list, as well as Peter Walker aged, but simple rule of thirds. Curiously never read anything about the method used by Stirling Trayle. I think we can't separate these rules from the speakers designed or owned by their promoters - they probably reflect their preferences.

Every time I positioned speakers in my listening room I tried to follow the rule endorsed by the manufacturer if I could get it. Speaker placement is surely affected by the speaker dispersion and the variation of this parameter is enormous.

 

[Another Johnson]

Jim smith advocates that finding the place to sit is the first thing to do.

As @microstrip pointed out in another thread a lot of people really dont have a lot of flexibility on where to sit. This is understandable. I helped one person where moving the listening position back 16” was a massive improvement in bass. It just depends on how much room a person has to play with. But optimization can occur within the parameters set by either the room size or domestic considerations.

This is why so many of us build dedicated rooms.

This is also why room correction software has become popular, especially in countries or cities where smallish spaces are the norm.

These are also related to the “wife acceptance factor.” If the system has to be in a common area, like great room or living room, you may have no control over seating at all. It may be dictated by the fashion/style of your partner.

In such cases, you may be stuck with suboptimal locations for speakers AND listeners. So you end up resorting to aftermarket software solutions. Once you’re in that boat, it doesn’t matter. My HT is like that. Seats and speakers are where they have to be. Sound is “fixed” by automated software built into the AVR.

 

[bonzo75]

Jim smith advocates that finding the place to sit is the first thing to do.

As @microstrip pointed out in another thread a lot of people really dont have a lot of flexibility on where to sit. This is understandable. I helped one person where moving the listening position back 16” was a massive improvement in bass. It just depends on how much room a person has to play with. But optimization can occur within the parameters set by either the room size or domestic considerations.

Is this listening chair experiment with moving as well as using measurements? Measurements require experience. If it is purely a function of the audiophile moving about, then it is a function of how keen he is in doing so. I have a friend in a 14*30 room who now cannot be bothered to move his speakers around even if I offer to do it for him, on the other hand Mike with almost 50 years keeps adjusting.

The other thing is if the audiophile cannot judge for himself what he should listen for while moving his seat, then he might as well sit anywhere instead of paying someone to tell him where he should.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Todd, for starting this thread.

1) Certainly there is great value in being as precise is reasonably possible with speaker positioning. But if we are being honest with ourselves I am extremely skeptical that we can reliably hear and A/B speaker repositionings of a 16th of an inch or of 1 millimeter.

2) I think there is significant variance in dealer set-up capability. Unfortunately a dealer performing the set-up is not entirely predictive of proper set-up.

Completely making up numbers maybe the average audiophile can get 70% to 80% of the way to proper set-up. Maybe the average dealer can get to 80% to 90%. But, in my opinion, that is still leaving a lot of sonic performance on the table.

I agree with you that whether it is optimized speaker positioning or perfected cartridge alignment, much of the sonic magic of this hobby lies in the final few percent. I have posted and said many times that I believe many of us are not realizing the sound quality of which our components, and our systems, are capable.

I truly believe it takes the unique expertise and experience of a Jim Smith or of a Stirling Trayle to get to 95% to 100% of system realization. This is why I have spoken to Jim Smith about engaging him to position my listening chair and speaker towers. This is why I will be engaging J.R. Boisclair to install one of the two tonearms, and to align both cartridges.

 

[Another Johnson]

I think it’s worth some money to have a specialist do your setup. I have the tools and training to set up Linn LP12s, and I’ve done them literally for nearly 40 years. But I recently thought it would be educational to have Tom O’Keefe do setup on my better LP12 since he was installing the Karousel upgrade anyway. I was stunned by how much music he was able to coax out of the deck by his “clocking” the platter, and torquing every fastener to his personally determined specs.

I liked his work so well that I had him do my other LP12 without any specific parts upgrade. It was equally impressive.

Peter Swain is the only other guy I would have deferred to. My own set ups have always been good, but I have to bow to true masters.

As for speaker location tweaks, it’s good to have help… but don’t fall into the trap of not spiking them so they’re easier to move. You don’t really know how well a location works until you’ve spiked the speakers.

 

[sbnx]

This is why so many of us build dedicated rooms.

This is also why room correction software has become popular, especially in countries or cities where smallish spaces are the norm.

These are also related to the “wife acceptance factor.” If the system has to be in a common area, like great room or living room, you may have no control over seating at all. It may be dictated by the fashion/style of your partner.

In such cases, you may be stuck with suboptimal locations for speakers AND listeners. So you end up resorting to aftermarket software solutions. Once you’re in that boat, it doesn’t matter. My HT is like that. Seats and speakers are where they have to be. Sound is “fixed” by automated software built into the AVR.

There are some nice DSP solutions available. I am not discounting those as they are a potentially good solution for anyone who is limited on where they can sit or place their speakers. In fact I still remember my first experience with DSP back in the mid 90's. One of the original products was the "sigtech". I did a demo with a pair of Wilson WP5.1's. I was listening to Holly Cole's "don't smoke in bed" and he engaged the sigtech. My jaw hit the floor as the standup bass was so much better defined and articulate. This was one of the defining moments in my audiophile journey. From that point on I knew what bass was supposed to sound like. A couple years later I bought a Tact 2.0S and used that because my domestic situation was such that both the speaker placement and listening position was limited.

Now DSP has become even more sophisticated with the relatively new Bacch SSP. I demo'd that at AXPONA this year. What it does by removing the interaural crosstalk is quite impressive. It is like Q-sound but with every song. The soundstage it opens up is huge. However, it doesn't address the "wavelaunch and timing" of the two speakers. When I listened to a couple classical recordings with it the orchestra was still disorganized from a time perspective. I have not proven this with the Bacch system but one still needs to get the speakers time aligned and then engage the bacch. Then that might be something special. And to get the speakers time aligned does not take a lot of space. If you have +/- a few inches then it can be done.

 

[sbnx]

Is this listening chair experiment with moving as well as using measurements? Measurements require experience. If it is purely a function of the audiophile moving about, then it is a function of how keen he is in doing so. I have a friend in a 14*30 room who now cannot be bothered to move his speakers around even if I offer to do it for him, on the other hand Mike with almost 50 years keeps adjusting.

The other thing is if the audiophile cannot judge for himself what he should listen for while moving his seat, then he might as well sit anywhere instead of paying someone to tell him where he should.

A very good method for finding the best listening position is covered in Jim's book "Get Better Sound" and he shows it on the DVD. If he ever comes out with the "Through the Sound Barrier" then he may cover this in even more detail. But to summarize, one plays pink noise throught he speakers. Connect a mic to an RTA (REW has both a pink noise generator and an RTA for free). Set the resolution to 1/3 octave. Stand on the centerline between the two speakers. Hold the mic at what would be ear level when seated. Then move back and forth along the centerline in the window in small increments (1-2 inch) that your seating position could be. You are looking for the position where the frequency response on the RTA is the smoothest. (Not the deepest) This is where your head goes.

One could theoretically do this by ear but they would need a very well trained ear as we humans don't have great resolution in the bass region. Also our brain is very good at picking up peaks but completely ignores dips.

If someone has the space to move the chair then why not do it? If a person is not willing to learn how to do the above then hire Jim or someone to come do it for you. At the cost of speakers and systems these days it is less than the cost of any kind of cable or heck less than the cost of a set of footers.

 

[Carlos269]

I truly believe it takes the unique expertise and experience of a Jim Smith or of a Stirling Trayle to get to 95% to 100% of system realization. This is why I have spoken to Jim Smith about engaging him to position my listening chair and speaker towers.

I just don’t get this logic. To me working on your system is one of the most satisfying and rewarding parts of this hobby. Last night I was “playing” around in my listening room and I was like a kid, my wife had to text me that it was almost 1am and to come down, which like a kid I didn’t want to stop ”playing”. Relinquishing the setup and moving stuff around part of the hobby is something I would never do.

Furthermore, can someone provide a link to these individual’s qualifications, so that I can read up on what gives them the skills that other mortal men do not apparently seem to have or possess. What makes these men more qualified and competent than than Todd, who claims to be a scientist/engineer, to set up his own Trio system for example?

The high-End audio world is full of ignorant and foolish practices and to me this one falls in that bucket. If you are not smart enough to set up your own equipment then why bother with the great investment. You want to bring other qualified individuals to take care of other duties in the house?

You said that you liked the sound of my DHT/SET/HORN system, it took me less than an hour to reposition that system, from one of the short walls in the room to along one of the long walls, and to dial it in to make it sing. I enjoyed the work and the fruits of my work and call me a narcissist or whatever but I do not want to give that credit to anyone else. It is so rewarding when you do it yourself instead of opening up your wallet and declaring incompetency.

 

[sbnx]

Thank you, Todd, for starting this thread.

1) Certainly there is great value in being as precise is reasonably possible with speaker positioning. But if we are being honest with ourselves I am extremely skeptical that we can reliably hear and A/B speaker repositionings of a 16th of an inch or of 1 millimeter.

2) I think there is significant variance in dealer set-up capability. Unfortunately a dealer performing the set-up is not entirely predictive of proper set-up.

Completely making up numbers maybe the average audiophile can get 70% to 80% of the way to proper set-up. Maybe the average dealer can get to 80% to 90%. But, in my opinion, that is still leaving a lot of sonic performance on the table.

I agree with you that whether it is optimized speaker positioning or perfected cartridge alignment, much of the sonic magic of this hobby lies in the final few percent. I have posted and said many times that I believe many of us are not realizing the sound quality of which our components, and our systems, are capable.

I truly believe it takes the unique expertise and experience of a Jim Smith or of a Stirling Trayle to get to 95% to 100% of system realization. This is why I have spoken to Jim Smith about engaging him to position my listening chair and speaker towers. This is why I will be engaging J.R. Boisclair to install one of the two tonearms, and to align both cartridges.

Ron,

1mm is a very large movement. It is very easy to hear the effect of much, much smaller movements than this. And it is repeatable. Start with sound A. Bump the speaker to the left by a very, very small amount and get result B. If you don't like B then bump it back to A. I promise I could demo this for you.

I fully agree that it seems there is a great deal of variance in the skill level of dealers. Some can get a reasonable setup while others are dreadful. I recall my first demo of a pair of XVX that was setup by the dealer. It was so bad. I was thinking how would anyone come away from that thinking they would spend over $300k for that pair of speakers. I went back about 6 months later and someone (I think from Wilson) had set them up. The sound was much, much better. This was at least in the realm of I can hear the potential.

The magic lies in the last little bit. Unfortunately so many are stopping far short of the performance that they paid for. I am glad to hear you are going to get someone to help you find that magic.

 

[sbnx]

I just don’t get this logic.

I know.

Let me relate a lot of what you said to another hobby of mine -- woodworking. Just because I can go out and buy a tablesaw, jointer, planer, etc. doesn't mean I know how to use this equipment. I can even read the manual. That doesn't mean I have the experience to truly operate the machinery safely. And even if I can operate it that doesn't mean I know how to build a Bombay chest. This is why I paid money to people with decades of experience to teach me how to build fine furniture. What was the credentials of the people I hired to teach me? They didn't have a college degree or certificates or any other of that junk. The knowledge they had was easily demonstrable. And one could see the quality in the things they built.

What is the credentials of a Jim Smith or Stirling Trayle or some others. Well, they have decades of experience doing this for a living. And the knowledge they have is easily demonstrable. And I can see the quality in their work.

 

[Carlos269]

I know.

Let me relate a lot of what you said to another hobby of mine -- woodworking. Just because I can go out and buy a tablesaw, jointer, planer, etc. doesn't mean I know how to use this equipment. I can even read the manual. That doesn't mean I have the experience to truly operate the machinery safely. And even if I can operate it that doesn't mean I know how to build a Bombay chest. This is why I paid money to people with decades of experience to teach me how to build fine furniture. What was the credentials of the people I hired to teach me? They didn't have a college degree or certificates or any other of that junk. The knowledge they had was easily demonstrable. And one could see the quality in the things they built.

What is the credentials of a Jim Smith or Stirling Trayle or some others. Well, they have decades of experience doing this for a living. And they knowledge they have is easily demonstrable. And I can see the quality in their work.

What kind of a “scientist/engineer” are you again?

 

[sbnx]

I am not sure how that relates to audio but I have graduate degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Physics. I work in microelectonics. I guess since transistors these days are measured in nanometers one might see why I would call 1mm a large dimension.

 

[Carlos269]

I am not sure how that relates to audio but I have graduate degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Physics. I work in microelectonics. I guess since transistors these days are measured in nanometers one might see why I would call 1mm a large dimension.

My background is in Physics and Electrical Engineering and have done work in the field of nano-electronics so not dissimilar, but even with your background you should not have to rely on others for this simple kind of work. I hope that you don’t advocate calling Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab for a consultation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I just don’t get this logic.

That's because it's not logic; it's preference.

Do you also not get the "logic" of why I don't like watching TV? (rhetorical)

 

[joaovieira]

Ron,

1mm is a very large movement. It is very easy to hear the effect of much, much smaller movements than this. And it is repeatable. Start with sound A. Bump the speaker to the left by a very, very small amount and get result B. If you don't like B then bump it back to A. I promise I could demo this for you.

I fully agree that it seems there is a great deal of variance in the skill level of dealers. Some can get a reasonable setup while others are dreadful. I recall my first demo of a pair of XVX that was setup by the dealer. It was so bad. I was thinking how would anyone come away from that thinking they would spend over $300k for that pair of speakers. I went back about 6 months later and someone (I think from Wilson) had set them up. The sound was much, much better. This was at least in the realm of I can hear the potential.

The magic lies in the last little bit. Unfortunately so many are stopping far short of the performance that they paid for. I am glad to hear you are going to get someone to help you find that magic.

Are you sure you mean 1 mm? Not 1 cm?
It is difficult to even move a speaker for only 1 mm. Too much precision and I don't get it making so. much difference.
Now, 1 cm is ok.