Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[Al M.]

I agree that it depends on the room as to what is needed and what is not.
What is your average listening SPL, what do you consider loud? Not trying to be confrontational, just interested.

The loudest I listen is with orchestral peaks, at 97-100 dBC, in rare cases just above. Music with more sustained volume levels at somewhat lower SPL.


(I am following NIOSH guidelines, which are expressed in dBA, a scale more tilted towards sensitivity of the human ear at midrange and treble frequencies.)

 

[sbo6]

You are stuck on tone. This is only 1/2 the equation.

Thank you for your opinion. Not based on my experience. Be careful when you generalize and dictate your "standards", especially without empirical data.

 

[AudioHR]

The loudest I listen is with orchestral peaks, at 97-100 dBC, in rare cases just above. Music with more sustained volume levels at somewhat lower SPL.


(I am following NIOSH guidelines, which are expressed in dBA, a scale more tilted towards sensitivity of the human ear at midrange and treble frequencies.)

Thank you very much!

Although I recognize dbA is somewhat of a standard I find myself using the dbC scale that measure the sp of the bass frequencies. I note that you must use the C scale too as you quoted your loudest peak levels in dbC.

It's an interesting topic. I wonder if there is already a thread on this? Loudness can definitely influence how we perceive the sound.

 

[mtemur]

What about the number of people in the room? If a system is “perfectly” set up, to the point a knuckle rap to a speaker can profoundly change the sound, then surely the number of bodies in the room has a similarly profound effect. So, for example, if two people are setting up the room, does one leave while the other listens from the listening chair? I sure hope so. If the setup is optimized for one person, sitting alone in the room, what happens to the sound when, say, a spouse joins for a listening session? Are adjustments made to account for the additional presence of a large mass being added to the room?

Yes, still skeptical. Speaker position is critical, without a doubt, but in the real world (which is where we listen, not in a controlled lab environment) we need to be able to just listen without first doing a speaker bump for changes in humidity.

And more to your point, the speed of sound is a function of the temperature of the air molecules. When the temperature changes in the room so does the sound characteristics in the room; this is easily observable.

Very good points.
Human body absorbs sound up to a degree so , more people in the room means more absorption. This can be heard as attenuation on SPL and high frequencies.
Temperature, pressure and humidity all affect density of the air. When density increases sound speed increases too. Sound propagation profile depends on actual sound speed in the room. When sound speed increases absorption decreases especially on the high frequencies. If you dive inside a pressure chamber you notice everyone’s voice becomes very thin. That’s a good example of this effect.

 

[Al M.]

Thank you very much!

Although I recognize dbA is somewhat of a standard I find myself using the dbC scale that measure the sp of the bass frequencies. I note that you must use the C scale too as you quoted your loudest peak levels in dbC.

It's an interesting topic. I wonder if there is already a thread on this? Loudness can definitely influence how we perceive the sound.

Yes, I use the dBA readings in order to ensure that I am not overstressing.my ears (according to NIOSH guidelines), but I use dBC readings to actually measure the music, as they include the bass as well.

My Reed SPL meter is factory calibrated, and I bought the separate Reed calibration device to make sure the calibration actually holds up, which it does. The meter plus calibration device are not cheap, but it's a small price to pay to make sure your ears are protected.

 

[mtemur]

Commercial room treatments are like chemotherapy medication, it’s killing you while killing cancer cells.

Room treatments don’t specifically work on problematic frequencies. More or less they’re effective on all frequencies, sucking the life out of music while cleaning nastiness.

 

[Al M.]

Commercial room treatments are like chemotherapy medication, it’s killing you while killing cancer cells.

Room treatments don’t specifically work on problematic frequencies. More or less they’re effective on all frequencies, sucking the life out of music while cleaning nastiness.

Obviously, this a ridiculous over-generalization.

 

[mtemur]

Obviously, this a ridiculous over-generalization.

So, the doctors say the same for chemotherapy.

 

[Al M.]

So, the doctors say the same for chemotherapy.

Well, I guess provocative statements are always fun.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Commercial room treatments are like chemotherapy medication, it’s killing you while killing cancer cells.

Room treatments don’t specifically work on problematic frequencies. More or less they’re effective on all frequencies, sucking the life out of music while cleaning nastiness.

the goal is to have enough space and energy to shave off a bit here and there. but only just a bit. and only shave surface reflective energy, not use any commercial tonal shifting absorption. it is realistic to add diffusion, but better that the room build shapes are doing the heavy lifting. and don't forget the ceiling.

and enough bass trapping built in to be able to reduce it carefully. i realize this is controversial. and maybe it's just my personal anecdotal experience. but it seems like the right play to me even though i don't have any broader experience with it. helps to have plenty of bass driver surface and considerable speaker adjustability.

but if you don't have enough of space, musical energy or bass trapping then it's hard to add any that will actually do 'only' what you intend to do. acoustics are just not that predictable or controllable.

 

[wil]

Thank you very much!

Although I recognize dbA is somewhat of a standard I find myself using the dbC scale that measure the sp of the bass frequencies. I note that you must use the C scale too as you quoted your loudest peak levels in dbC.

It's an interesting topic. I wonder if there is already a thread on this? Loudness can definitely influence how we perceive the sound.

There are some threads, but you have to treat some reports with caveats. There might be guys here with significant hearing loss which could lead to playing music at excessive spls!

 

[wil]

Commercial room treatments are like chemotherapy medication, it’s killing you while killing cancer cells.

Room treatments don’t specifically work on problematic frequencies. More or less they’re effective on all frequencies, sucking the life out of music while cleaning nastiness.

This has not been my experience with room treatments! Some work a lot better than others, of course.

 

[wil]

So, the doctors say the same for chemotherapy.

Well, I guess provocative statements are always fun.

Yes, chemotherapy — always a great way to inject a little levity into an Audio discussion!

 

[the sound of Tao]

Graham ... it is all just a design problem to be solved .. what are the acoustic targets, what is the room use, what are the decor restrictions and what is the budget .
This applies to concert halls, recording studios, dedicated rooms and living rooms and the principles are surprisingly similar as sound doesn't know where it is
Attenuated first reflections , absorbing excess bass and appropriatly damping the space are all thats needed
A good mastering studio should be similar to a good living room, live but clear. Sadly they are rare, most being built based on ideas from the 90's. Sean Olive recently did a study of bass in quite a few studios and the results were appaling .. not saying there arent some great studios but a lot of our music is mastered in poor rooms.
Living rooms are often open to other spaces and are built with lossy frame and sheet construction and dont need bass absorbtion. You can easily build the general absorbtion and relection reduction into the fabric of the building .. the more discreet the more costly or space eating.
Achieving these quite specific items with furniture is unlikely to be optimal but can be quite good .. after all the good performance of older halls is supposed, to some extent, be the results of attached pilasters and all the deep decorative molding reducing first reflections.
So your baroque revival living room might sound great
When use a well sealed room like Mike's it becomes way more difficult to control bass but can achieve amazing clarity through low ambient noise. It is possible to make these very pleasant spaces.. Bobvins and Mikes rooms are good examples.
Speaker radiation pattern can make a difference but easy enough to design for all comers.
One of the polarsing features of the eternal debate is the ugliness of off the shelf devices when placed in a living room. I think the industry needs to step up in this area
Retuurning to the topic of speaker placement I suspect the fine adjustments of speaker set up compensate for small irregularities between left and right.. when you see an acourate sweep of left and right in a perfectly symmetrical space there are all these fine non correlated wobbles.
But a good room is always going to make it dramatically easier you would think

Phil

Yes, having a good room is always going to be a joy and it’s always going to be ultimately about framing what is needed within the context of the room, the speaker and the listener. Even a bit too much is way more problematic for me than not quite enough..

Certainly killing the energy is killing the music.

 

[Al M.]

There are some threads, but you have to treat some reports with caveats. There might be guys here with significant hearing loss which could lead to playing music at excessive spls!

Also, iPhone apps can be off by 10 dB or more, while others may be relatively spot on, thus some caveats on reported numbers.

My dedicated $20 SPL meter was also 2-4 dBA off compared to my calibrated Reed meter. Fortunately on the too high side.

 

[stehno]

Yet for many it will never change at all. I present this analogy.
I play Golf.
I see people at the driving range hiting ball after ball wrong. They are practicing and engraining how to do the same thing wrong over and over. Do they take a lesson from an expert to fix the issue? or do they continue searching for mysteries on thier own with little or no improvement?

Taking certain philosophies that are represented hear like judging high end system on cell phone videos or by drive by's at audio shows DO NOT foster education but rather keep hiting balls at the driving range.

Open your mind and try to learn , do not assume that you know it all and that what you have is the end of the road. An open mind leads to more enjoyment. I believe that staying home in your basement and creating things you believe may not be the answer and may take you down the wrong path.

lol, Ellliot. Yeah, your post wreaks of your open-mindedness. Speaking of which, I have to ask about your golf/driving range analogy….

While observing this very real driving range experience, are you not also hitting buckets of balls and taking random lessons from "experts" – just like those to the left and right of you? IOW, what open-mindedness have you demonstrated there or here that separates you from the concensus? Please share.

BTW, back in the 80's and 90's my neighbor Norman Manley in Long Beach, CA held the record for hole-in-ones, pro or amateur, at I think it was 89 official aces and many more unofficial. And he only started playing golf when he was 33 years old hoping to impress some girl he worked with at McDonnell-Douglas. And he ended up marrying her. I'm guessing he was open-minded.

 

[hopkins]

One of the polarsing features of the eternal debate is the ugliness of off the shelf devices when placed in a living room. I think the industry needs to step up in this area

+1

It seems to me that there is a lot of R&D these days relating to acoustic materials. Perhaps this will lead to some opportunities for more discrete and effective room treatment (perhaps even things build in to the constructions)?

I also see a growing concern with noise pollution in urban areas. In Paris, for example, the city is experimenting with quieter road surfaces. This obviously does not directly relate to home acoustics, but it is still a positive development. People may be more concerned today with noise in public spaces, and that could lead to more innovation.

Europe’s Noise Capital Tries to Turn Down the Volume

To combat the ill effects of urban noise pollution, Paris is deploying automated sensors and cracking down on the loudest vehicles.

www.bloomberg.com

Here's a short video I made when I visited NYC last September - anyone wanting to listen to music at home better have good soundproofed windows!

 

[Elliot G.]

lol, Ellliot. Yeah, your post wreaks of your open-mindedness. Speaking of which, I have to ask about your golf/driving range analogy….

While observing this very real driving range experience, are you not also hitting buckets of balls and taking random lessons from "experts" – just like those to the left and right of you? IOW, what open-mindedness have you demonstrated there or here that separates you from the concensus? Please share.

BTW, back in the 80's and 90's my neighbor Norman Manley in Long Beach, CA held the record for hole-in-ones, pro or amateur, at I think it was 89 official aces and many more unofficial. And he only started playing golf when he was 33 years old hoping to impress some girl he worked with at McDonnell-Douglas. And he ended up marrying her. I'm guessing he was open-minded.

I dont hit buckets of balls. I hit a few to warm up and then go play. I realize that doesnt work. I am a good golfer by the way and found a long time ago if you are doing it wrong doing it more doesnt help you get better.
There are many opinions in audio that are based on very limited experience and exposure. I can tell you that what I said about most have never heard what is possible to be true. Most not all. SO many times I have been told that something is great only to listen and find out it is far from great. I can only say that my experience as a young audio lover and a hot shot that thought he knew something was changed forever when I first met HP and heard his system for the first time. I realized I knew very little. I have had the same experience on a golf course playing with a tour pro.
I don't understand why men in audio hjave so much resistance to learning or maybe realizing that there are those that migh t know more or help them. 10 k for a power cord but not a few thousand for an expert to come show you how to truly ge the system properly set up.
Just becausee you are a concert pianist doesn't mean you can tune the instrument!
I have never had a hole in one and I'm not sure that is actually a judge of quality. I am however a single digit handicap.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...Manly: 59 aces, many of which were disputed. That's how stories get legs.

 

[pjwd]

Also, how you came to the conclusion Nagata is good is more important than name dropping.

Im not sure if that is a token question with an insult or a token insult with a question but here goes
Nagata did the local conservatory hall in the 90's its a shoe box with around 700 seats..it is one of the best halls in aus I think .. very clear direct sound, warm l reverbarent field and clean bass.. all seats are pretty good. Orchestras love to play there. This is a pretty easy size and shape to get right but it doesn't always happen

There are very delayed and diffuse reflections from high ceiling, variable absorbtion and diffusion in the orchestra shell and diffused relection from side walls. These are all attributes of a pleasing acoustic that have been proved up by Tapio Lokki's more recent research research. Nowadays the side reflection would be probably be smarter.

His other hall I experienced was the Disney Hall. Much later design and the more difficult vineyard plan 2000 or so seats. You cant use side walls for that supporting sideways reverbarent field. One of the discoveries of more recent research is how your neighbours head masks and distorts these reflections so a sloping sidewall or angled reflectors that expose your ears from above or behind give a better result. I believe Nagata has used the ceilings for this purpose ( my assumption .. it could be that Ghery just threw his scarf over a few rails and said..do that )

There is also splayed reflection above the orchestra so they can hear each other .. but probably too high ... the curves are very shallow and would act as specular reflections rather than diffusion thus keeping the reverbarent field correlated with direct sound .. these mostly have the potential of side wall support without masking

It is the best vinyard type hall that I have heard .. we were in the balcony and it was fabulous.
I have followed his other designs not experienced them.. some appear whacky but there are many forces at play in hall design

Having taken this topic completely off piste I will stop now
Cheers
Phil