Do higher end subwoofer cables make for a sound quality improvement?

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Was wondering this weekend as I have been refining cable placement and organization…I have heard a few people say that this is an area where the finest cables are not needed but I have heard others say you still get a benefit as you move up the line…

What are your thoughts?
 
Can't speak for interconnects, bought some from ZenWave Audio but did not compare with cheap cables.

However, when it comes to power cables, clearly a big improvement with ZenWave Clear Bass power cords over the stock ones that came with my JL Audio Fathom 112v2 subs. Bass is substantially tighter, for a relatively moderate expense.
 
As with all cables, proceed with caution. and of course when it comes to results YMMV.
 
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Was wondering this weekend as I have been refining cable placement and organization…I have heard a few people say that this is an area where the finest cables are not needed but I have heard others say you still get a benefit as you move up the line…

What are your thoughts?

At one point in time, I thought that cables for subs were not critical. Over the years, as my cables were improved in the rest of the rig, I would use the leftovers to upgrade the sub cables. The last cable upgrade I did to the main (critical pathways) portion of the rig, allowed me to place what was there on the subs. At this point, I realized that I made a mistake. The subs should have also been considered a "critical" part of the system.

As soon as I can ($$$ being spent elsewhere at the moment), I will be optimizing the IC's and PC's to those that are in the rest of the system. Then work on losing the fuses and replacing them with the SDFB and SRA Takshaka pig tails for both.

I think you get two differing answers because not all people run with the same sub, and if the sub isn't accurate or it produces boom (that masks other frequencies), any improvement shouldn't come from cable upgrades, they should come from a sub upgrade. At least in my opinion/experience. I will never again consider cables to the subs an "afterthought". For me, they are now considered critical. FWIW.

Tom
 
Was wondering this weekend as I have been refining cable placement and organization…I have heard a few people say that this is an area where the finest cables are not needed but I have heard others say you still get a benefit as you move up the line…

What are your thoughts?

Unfortunately subwoofer cables make a real difference. Hard to believe considering the involved frequencies. But when we think they are usually long and run in parallel with the power amplifier signal cable it can make sense - they can also change the sound of the main speakers!

Never tried it with the Dartzeel preamplifier that has separately buffered outputs.
 
My main audio system includes four subwoofers:
- Two Perlisten receiving signal from a line stage preamplifier via balanced XLR cable
- Two Vandersteen receiving signal from the power amplifier output terminals via speaker cable

For balanced XLR cable, I tried AudioQuest Husky, Morrow Audio SUB4, Belden 1800F, and Mogami W2549 - order is most to least expensive. For speaker cable, I tried Wireworld Equinox 8, Morrow Audio SP4, and Belden 1313A - again, order is most to least expensive. In each case, my overall system sound quality was practically identical.

Regarding power cables, I did not perceive a material difference among Wireworld Electra 7, AudioQuest NRG-4, and stock. I have two 20A electrical circuits dedicated to the subwoofers, which may be a contributing factor.

This is all to say that experimenting with cables for my subwoofers was fun and informative, so it may also be for you.
 
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Some mighty nice woofage you got there!

No only that, but if these subs are in the same system as the Vandersteen Quatros then he has 6 subs running since each Quatro also has a built-in sub.
 
No only that, but if these subs are in the same system as the Vandersteen Quatros then he has 6 subs running since each Quatro also has a built-in sub.

Some mighty nice woofage you got there!
Vandersteen Quatro Wood CT are the main speakers in the system currently, so you are right - really six subwoofers in play. Depending on mood, I switch among Quatro Wood CT, Audio Physic Cardeas, and JBL L300 Summit (circa 1980), so six subwoofers are not always going.

Separately, I see that you use Vandersteen System Nine, along with M7–HPA monoblocks. Just, wow. I have Vandersteen KENTO Carbon in my sights.
 
I upgraded my power cables to AQ Dragon's to my REL S/812 pair and noticed a significant improvement, so I then upgraded the interconnects and speakon cables to AQ Angel and was very pleasantly surprised. I also put a dedicated AQ Niagra 3000 on each sub and the result was again an improvement.

The result is a tighter and faster sub with a significantly lower noise floor. Simply more musical!
 
A fellow audiophile in the Princeton area in N Jersey has recently installed 2 pairs of REL 31. After doing "normal" factory "install" and allowing one month for their break in, the installer-dealer gutted them, and upgraded all the wiring inside, swapped all the connecting cables, and installed his "reference" high current power cords. The resulting sound integrated with the Eminent Tech 8b panels was so overwhelmingly better, must have ve been heard before and after, to be believed . That system can rival any big modern Ribbon models at any price. So in my experience both the connecting cables and power cords need to be viewed as "essential", and swapped for the "better" sounding wire.
 
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My experience is to treat the subs the same as your main amps and speakers. This means same power cables as main amps, assuming you are using active subs. Interconnects the same, this was a big revelation in the fact this made the subs disappear, even though I did not realise they were prominent in the first place.

Fuses, IEC inputs to match main amps, plus any other fuses such as in mains cables.

Final thing is supports, isolation not spikes or on the floor. Here like you would with the main speakers.

All this really opened up the overall sound, it’s mazing how much information comes through from 80hz and down. Some songs like a new reverb machine has been switched on.

Should add I run stereo subs, again cannot recommend this highly enough if going down the sub route.
 
In my opinion you should consider Subs a key part of the system and not an afterthought. I dont have my subs on isolators solely due to the weight the signal cable matters but what I have found to have the biggest impact is power, loads of clean power :) I run AQ Dragon's to everything and everything is fed of AQ Niagra power conditioners
I would look at Isoacoustics solutions for supports. I have the Gaia’s which support up to 100kg as my subs support screw in feet. If you have flat bottoms subs the Aperta XL supports up to 72.5kg.

They have 30 day trials in most countries so worth a try. I was amazed how they detached the subs from the room and brought sonic improvements.
 
my twin tower Evolution Acoustics MM7's have active bass towers which each include -2- 1000 watt class D amplifiers. i need 2 power cords for each tower, and each side of my room have a separate A/C circuit just for the duplex outlet for the each bass tower. i use 4 Absolute Fidelity 12 foot power cords for these amps and i recall how significant upgrading those from a generic power cord was back 13 years ago. and the bass towers only cross over to the passive towers under 50hz.

there is an interface to the bass towers for the signal path taking it's signal from the passive tower speaker terminal. you can upgrade those cables although i have not done that. so it's something i could do and i have considered it. but it is only below 50 hz for whatever that is worth.

for my speakers the -4- 11" ceramic matrix mid-woofers in each passive tower do the heavy lifting of the bass performance as they cover 250hz to 30hz.

any bass performance upgrade is never to be scoffed at. it's the foundation of the music and significant for the improved degrees of realism.
 
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Yes! You don't necessarily need the same level of cable vs mains but it's critical to use cables that don't add too much warmth. Warmth in the bass region comes across as fullness, it's like adding harmonics or even order harmonic distortion. This can be a subjective preference in some cases, but the downsides are poor timbre differentiation, or bass instruments sounding too similar as the added warmth is the same across all instruments and recordings, so you get a certain "character" added to everything just like warm mains cables. The warmth also rounds off transients and dynamics and adds to overhang, or artificially extended decay. This has the subjective effect of making the bass sound slow and out of time with the main speakers. We can get acclimated to warm bass or harmonic distortion in bass, and then dislike it when experiencing cleaner bass. But after a short time most people prefer cleaner bass.

Cleaner bass leads to the impression of improvement across the frequency range too, which makes sense as you're getting rid of distortion and added artifacts (warmth), which results in being able to hear the rest of the music more clearly. In my own speakers I ended up using a 15" woofer with an 18" woofer's motor and a very stiff cone. Made by Acoustic Elegance, it's distortion measures nearly an order of magnitude lower than my other speakers that use dual 7" TAD carbon fiber woofers. If you add in a very powerful and precise amp, and cables that aren't overly warm, the result is bass that plays a massive role in elevating the overall listening experience. My woofers (in both speakers) play up to 400 Hz, so not exactly subs, but even with subs it makes a similar improvement.

As far as cable quality, unfortunately lower cost cables means a warmer cable a vast majority of the time, so it's really easy to end up with fast, dynamic and resolving mains and then relatively slow, bloated bass from the subwoofer, and a lot of this is simply the cables, both signal and power cables, both can add significant warmth. This is common because most people don't want to spend big-$ on subwoofer cables.

My solution for this is ZenWave Clear Bass cables. They are made with military surplus silver-plated copper wire with teflon insulation, I buy this wire for about 10% of the cost of brand new wire and pass the savings onto my customers. Silver plated wire has the rep of sounding harsh, splashy, and anything but high end... I get that, but those unfortunate issues are nowhere near the bass region, they are upper mid to high frequency issues. Also, those issues are the result of unbalanced reactance, most often excessive capacitance, in the the design of the cable. I have tested cables made from the exact same wire, one cable is full of those flaws and with the other, the flaws are almost imperceptible. The way I make silver plated copper cables results in the latter, and it's so good I started a whole 'nother cable company in order to offer the sound of a good silver cable at much lower prices, which is called VolkSilver. The Clear Bass line also offers lower priced ICs and REL cables made using the mil spec wire. We're talking PCs starting at $299 using Furutech rhodium plated plugs and XLRs/REL cables starting at $199 each! These affordable cables will match or exceed the results of using high-$ cables as the Clear Bass cables are specifically made for subs, and hence use much heavier gauge construction than general purpose cables, 9 gauge PCs and 15 gauge interconnects, as well as using a low-inductance design which is especially good for bass quality.
 
At this point, I realised that I made a mistake. The subs should have also been considered a "critical" part of the system.
+1.

Yes and a double yes. Use the same cables between amp and preamp, between your subs.
++1. I couldn't agree more here.

For me, adding high-quality sub cables (in my case, line-level) to my sub really pulled my mains and sub "together". I found using interconnects for my sub that match (same company brand) my other line-level cables was a very significant step forward in sub integration and coherency, positively impacting overall sound clarity. For me this was the right move for sure..., but as they say, YMMV.
 
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Yes, every known AC and cable enhancement also applies to subwoofers. I made the assumption that since the signal direction was coming away from the amplifier, little attention needed to be made to the woofer, just set it in its best position and make the frequency adjustments and mission accomplished. I didn’t think I had any problem since the woofer was plugged into a 20A ten gauge dedicated same phase circuit.



I’ve used REL’s subs for years and through trial and error I made some surprising discoveries. Even though the REL’s recommended high level cable feeds signal from the amplifier to the woofer, noise is still a big issue. Noise somehow finds it way back to system though the high level cable. Compounding this problem most people are forced plug the woofer into a wall outlet closest to their REL because their power conditioner isn’t within a reasonable reach. If your main power conditioner outlets are used up, then a dedicated conditioner at each woofer would be ideal, but it’s messy and unpractical. I tackled my subwoofer noise problem by upgrading to an Audience Hidden Treasure outlet, adding a high current VooDoo power cord and a Shunyata Defender into the open receptacle. I also upgraded the fuse, the high level cable and supported it on Cardas Myrtle wood blocks. Each of theses six enhancements were crazy audible and fleshed out better imagining and blending with the main speakers.
 
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I posted above that I did not perceive benefits to overall sound quality from using finer signal and power cables to my four subwoofers, comprising two Vandersteen Sub Three placed near the main speakers and two Perlisten R212s placed near the rear room corners. It appears several folks perceive benefits.

I use first-order filters (6 dB per octave slope) to high-pass to the mains and low-pass to the subwoofers with a cutoff frequency of 80 Hz. Also, I use liberally the multi-band EQ integrated in each subwoofer to mostly cut room mode peaks, leading to in-room bass response measured at the listener position that is +/- 3dB (6dB peak to trough) between 20 Hz and 150 Hz - pretty smooth. The Vandersteen subwoofers also provide for variable Q adjustment impacting the perception of damped/tight versus warm/loose bass quality. I suspect the influence of EQ and Q adjustability in my setup impacted my assessment of benefits from using finer cables.

Question: Are folks with really nice subwoofer setups using or not using EQ for the lows?
 
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