Do Mobile Fidelity Vinyl Re-issues Have a Digital Step in the Process?

[microstrip]

Thank you, David, for monitoring the market for Mobile Fidelity UD1S LPs. The price decline is interesting, and suggests that, regardless of sound quality, consumers don’t like being misled.

IMHO it only suggests that collectors and speculators, the real responsible for the high prices, are selling their goods as they do not expect them to valuate more.

It will be interesting to see if the price decline you are observing factors into the Plaintiffs’ argument regarding the calculation of damages.

On the three UD1S titles (all sealed in boxes) I have posted on eBay, I have not received any interest above the original purchase price of $125.

IMHO the fact that are getting offers close to original price is a good sign to MoFi and you! BTW, Marvin Gaye - Whats Going On 2xLP MOFI MFSL One-step Mint, not sealed, sold yesterday at eBay for $240.

 

[microstrip]

U like the Modfi better?

All 3 in the room preferred KG, not just me.

I was just addressing the link I provided, I have not listened to these re-issues . Quoting from it:

"Still, the One Step absolutely obliterates this new pressing to the point where it’s not even funny. Kevin Gray’s cut is very good… until you hear the MoFi. By the time you’ve heard the first 10 seconds, it’s already better: there’s so much more space around the vocals (almost as if Marvin Gaye is right there), an absurd improvement in soundstage depth and three-dimensionality, deep and strong bass, shimmering triangles, vivid shakers and congas, and panoramic strings. I’m not sure what the measurements would say, but the stunningly involving UD1S certainly sounds more dynamic than the KG cut, which in comparison sounds thicker and flattened out, with the bass dialed in a bit. It still retains the analog goodness typical of AAA vinyl, but in terms of spatial detail the One Step wins without contest. (...)

The noise floor is of course higher than the SuperVinyl One Step, but that’s an unfair comparison. If my review of this new reissue sounds rather negative, it’s because the One Step is just that great. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Kevin Gray’s 50th anniversary cut, which is placed in a value-minded"

 

[microstrip]

DSD is numerous steps backwards from the real thing.

Your opinion, not a fact. Since long professionals have expressed very positive opinions on DSD, but the intrinsic problems of the format for mixing , equalization and mastering were always a limit.

That’s one reason why MoFi went to extremes to try to convenience everyone that their one steps were AAA vinyl. If as you state it was better, then why did they feel the need to fake it? They faked it acknowledging which format they knew was superior!

IMHO MoFi decided to hide the digital link mainly for marketing and economic reasons. A digital step means that at any moment new pressings or a digital edition could be easily done, reducing the appeal and value of limited editions and also because they knew that many audiophiles would dogmatically exclude anything not AAA. IMHO they beleive that a DSD256 is better than an intermediate analog tape step - surely my feeling, I do not have prove of it.

 

[adrianywu]

I very seldom buy reissue audiophile vinyl, especially titles that are common such as Tapestry. What I have always done for my favourite titles is to buy multiple copies of second hand LPs, find the best one, and sell the rest. These titles can often be found for a few dollars each, and I found that I could usually find a great copy with low noise and excellent sonics eventually. Even if I lose a few dollars reselling the LPs, it is still cheaper than buying an audiophile reissue.

 

[davidavdavid]

The prices on Discogs for US sales have dipped some, but not a ton. This was not the best received reissue to begin with. I am interested how the prices of the other, more sought-after titles do.

On a side note, and just my opinion, I have no sympathy for people who bought extra copies to sell, especially those who are music fans. I am never been comfortable doing that and making my fellow music fan pay more for something. /soapbox.

MoFi's business will be hurt for a while. Eventually the marketplace will get over it since they are not alone in deceitful advertising. I do hope this debacle brings about change so we are clear in what we are buying.

MoFi's business could possibly hurt for much more than a while if indeed the class action is certified, the trial progresses and/or MoFi's parent company agrees to what might be a rather onerous settlement. At the moment all of this is supposition.

Do bear in mind that Music Direct co-opted the MoFi brand so it spans not only MoFi reissues, but MoFi branded electronics, accessories and now speakers. And then there's the elephant in the room the distribution arm of Music Direct for all the HiFi brands making use of its online e-commerce platform which is MoFi Distribution. So, if MoFi reissues leave a bad taste in the mouths of consumers this could very well extend to the above impinging upon operations for all of Audiophile Music Direct, Inc.'s audio, hi-fi, electronics and music holdings.

The implications for how a lot of consumers (audiophlies/hi-fi enthusiasts) make their purchases can be far reaching, not to mention for the manufacturers, brands and distributors making musicdirect.com their respective e-commerce homes in the States.

 

[Ron Resnick]

What I have always done for my favourite titles is to buy multiple copies of second hand LPs, find the best one, and sell the rest.

I have done some of this too, but with sealed LPs. When Tower Records was selling my favorite rock and pop albums for $2 apiece I bought several copies of each one.

Now, in reality, I don’t have the patience to compare copies of the same title.

 

[Phillyb]

Any format used is suitable as the care taken, and even if mastered from a digital source, in fact, that can sound more accurate than coming from a master tape that is long past its prime and has degraded over the past 60 years. And chances are the master is long gone and they are using safety backups or fewer generation copies, so digital remasters are a life saver bringing the sound back to a much higher quality. Most LPs released today are 1st stamp for cutting from a digital master and everyone has been saying how good they sound. So now due to the internet, Mofi became the whipping boy, well you can go across the board if that is your base, some releases are pure analog but rare, I collected vinyl from the time I was 8 years old, if you want the analog tape sound then hunt pressing from 60 plus years ago onward till the '80s. Years ago Mofi did the Beatles box and back then no digital and playing back you could hear tape hiss, I called them and they said they are not in the best shape on the tapes. The new Beatle boxset has none of that hiss, so guess what they digitally improved the sound from the tape on top of re-EQ'ing and mostly done with digital tools. If you all have been sitting around enjoying MOFi releases over the past 10 years you enjoyed them. I should add other companies with LP releases are from digital tape sources and they don't bother to mention it. Simon and Gar, their master tapes were lost and never found, some releases on CD were from LP records to get the sound as close to the quality of the old LP released, that was done a lot also, should I be upset, heck no they CD sounded great, like my 1st pressing LP's. To record companies buyers who want vinyl are buying vinyl and that is the format they supply and no one till this uproar has complained about the sound quality of LP made from digital master tapes.

 

[Ron Resnick]

In this video Michael says: “90% of the time I can hear it [a digital step], and I’ve said it.”

Michael goes on to say: “I never suspected they were cut from digital. I heard something I didn’t like. I thought it was maybe only EQ related.”

So if Michael did not suspect that these Mobile Fidelity releases were cut from digital, were these Mobile Fidelity releases in the 10% subset where Michael could not hear a digital step?

Alternatively, Michael is on record as not liking many of the Mobile Fidelity releases in comparison to other releases of the same title. So, if Mobile Fidelity had not misled everybody, perhaps Michael would’ve suspected that the reason he was hearing something he “didn’t like” was as a result of a digital step. In other words, maybe Michael would have suspected a digital step upon hearing something he “didn’t like” if Mobile Fidelity had not effectively foreclosed a digital step as a suspect for what Michael was hearing.

 

[Phillyb]

He likes another pressing, well that goes with any format. Sorry I had American LPs, then purchased Japanese LPs and then German LPs, versions, and guess what they sound a bit different. I have friends who own MoFi LPs and raved about how good they sounded, and that's all that counts, now they suck? Give me a break, people follow opinions like sheep. Want the Best Beatles then find the "Blue" Parlaphone 14 LP Boxset, Stones find the German Telefunken label ones. Michael also knows that most LPs released are cut from digital. EQ related is on most new releases, that to them is they are improving the faults of early vinyl and guess what they use digital to do so, so with vinyl being purchased again they must be doing something right, and a big part is they sound good enough to the buyers, this purity test for sound quality is a joke in today market, want the best they find used 1st pressing LP's or go to reel-to-reel which smokes all vinyl.

But in the end, it is what you enjoy, I enjoyed vinyl for 30 plus years and owned all 1st pressings, 1/2 speed masters, MoFi, M&K, Sheffield Labs, and on and on. I owned the 1st pressing of the 1957 Elvis Christmas LP, the rarest of rare. I would never ever buy a CD I swore.

I then heard a CD and a real good player in 1999 and I threw away my prejudice against digital and started collecting CDs to this day, I never looked back sound my collection for $$$$$. Now I have 1,500 CD and counting from all over the world like my Vinyl collection.

 

[Audire]

Your opinion, not a fact. Since long professionals have expressed very positive opinions on DSD, but the intrinsic problems of the format for mixing , equalization and mastering were always a limit.


IMHO MoFi decided to hide the digital link mainly for marketing and economic reasons. A digital step means that at any moment new pressings or a digital edition could be easily done, reducing the appeal and value of limited editions and also because they knew that many audiophiles would dogmatically exclude anything not AAA. IMHO they beleive that a DSD256 is better than an intermediate analog tape step - surely my feeling, I do not have prove of it.

Most everything on this forum is an opinion. And professionals in the past said that we live on a flat earth, that Pluto was a planet, etc. So, the experts aren’t always correct - which includes many so-called pros that work for labels.

Yes, MoFi purposely hid their digital link so they could market their fake vinyl to produce more income for themselves. False marketing, false statements, false images, false emails = MoFi. Greed instead of honesty and integrity!

If the digital step is better, than Mofi should have been able communicate this to AAA vinylphiles over a decade ago and not wait until they are being sued to rewrite their script! The fact they didn’t communicate the truth reveals their true motives. And note they wouldn’t have said anything now if not for the mistake of making so many Thriller albums! In other words, they were content ripping off AAA vinylphiles!!!

MoFi didn't trust a major portion of their customer base to agree with them. So, they disrespected their AAA vinylphile customer base by lying to them for over a decade! It wasn’t because 256 is better, it’s because they could make more money by not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

[microstrip]

Most everything on this forum is an opinion. And professionals in the past said that we live on a flat earth, that Pluto was a planet, etc. So, the experts aren’t always correct - which includes many so-called pros that work for labels.

Yes, being a professional or expert does not mean that something is correct. But I have read from people whose high quality work make me trust them in this subject - surely IMHO, YMMV. BTW, again we should separate a digital ADC/DAC link from the whole digital recording process.

Yes, MoFi purposely hid their digital link so they could market their fake vinyl to produce more income for themselves. False marketing, false statements, false images, false emails = MoFi. Greed instead of honesty and integrity!

Yes, I have now read it tens of time and even wrote similar things. What was done can not be removed.

If the digital step is better, than Mofi should have been able communicate this to AAA vinylphiles over a decade ago and not wait until they are being sued to rewrite their script! The fact they didn’t communicate the truth reveals their true motives. And note they wouldn’t have said anything now if not for the mistake of making so many Thriller albums! In other words, they were content ripping off AAA vinylphiles!!!

Yes, their motives were driven by financial reasons. I do not believe their main idea was teasing purist analog audiophiles - I do not you imagine them laughing and making jokes when reading comments on the supremacy of pure analog in the reviews.

MoFi didn't trust a major portion of their customer base to agree with them. So, they disrespected their AAA vinylphile customer base by lying to them for over a decade! It wasn’t because 256 is better, it’s because they could make more money by not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Yes.

 

[MikeHorns]

In this video Michael says: “90% of the time I can hear it [a digital step], and I’ve said it.”

Michael goes on to say: “I never suspected they were cut from digital. I heard something I didn’t like. I thought it was maybe only EQ related.”

So if Michael did not suspect that these Mobile Fidelity releases were cut from digital, were these Mobile Fidelity releases in the 10% subset where Michael could not hear a digital step?

Alternatively, Michael is on record as not liking many of the Mobile Fidelity releases in comparison to other releases of the same title. So, if Mobile Fidelity had not misled everybody, perhaps Michael would’ve suspected that the reason he was hearing something he “didn’t like” was as a result of a digital step. In other words, maybe Michael would have suspected a digital step upon hearing something he “didn’t like” if Mobile Fidelity had not effectively foreclosed a digital step as a suspect for what Michael was hearing.

He absolutely 'loves' the sound of Santana Abraxas one-step, and it uses DSD264. I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[Lagonda]

He absolutely 'loves' the sound of Santana Abraxas one-step, and it uses DSD264. I'm sure there are other examples.

Let's not forget that Fremer is marketing records, and likes to tell a good story ! Was this not the same time he started reviewing hearing aids ?

 

[microstrip]

(...) In this video Michael says: “90% of the time I can hear it [a digital step], and I’ve said it.”

Michael goes on to say: “I never suspected they were cut from digital. I heard something I didn’t like. I thought it was maybe only EQ related.”

So if Michael did not suspect that these Mobile Fidelity releases were cut from digital, were these Mobile Fidelity releases in the 10% subset where Michael could not hear a digital step?

Alternatively, Michael is on record as not liking many of the Mobile Fidelity releases in comparison to other releases of the same title. So, if Mobile Fidelity had not misled everybody, perhaps Michael would’ve suspected that the reason he was hearing something he “didn’t like” was as a result of a digital step. In other words, maybe Michael would have suspected a digital step upon hearing something he “didn’t like” if Mobile Fidelity had not effectively foreclosed a digital step as a suspect for what Michael was hearing.

No, Ron. Although MF is not a fundamentalist anti-digital he has been fooled as many others for many years. Surely now he will try to dilute it - it part of the general strategy of the whole industry in this case.

This was is opinion in 2018 writing on the announcement of the OneStep Bridged over Troubled Water "One thing's for sure: the current (MFSL) mastering team produces the best releases in terms of equalization and the current mastering system is among the world's most transparent. So there's good reason for optimism! "

Remember that in this case we do not have winners, only losers.

 

[adrianywu]

I have done some of this too, but with sealed LPs. When Tower Records was selling my favorite rock and pop albums for $2 apiece I bought several copies of each one.

Now, in reality, I don’t have the patience to compare copies of the same title.

It usually does not take long to realise which copy is better. Even a few minutes of the first track. Of course, there might be problems such as skipped tracks along the way that needs to play through to find.

 

[adrianywu]

Most everything on this forum is an opinion. And professionals in the past said that we live on a flat earth, that Pluto was a planet, etc. So, the experts aren’t always correct - which includes many so-called pros that work for labels.

Yes, MoFi purposely hid their digital link so they could market their fake vinyl to produce more income for themselves. False marketing, false statements, false images, false emails = MoFi. Greed instead of honesty and integrity!

If the digital step is better, than Mofi should have been able communicate this to AAA vinylphiles over a decade ago and not wait until they are being sued to rewrite their script! The fact they didn’t communicate the truth reveals their true motives. And note they wouldn’t have said anything now if not for the mistake of making so many Thriller albums! In other words, they were content ripping off AAA vinylphiles!!!

MoFi didn't trust a major portion of their customer base to agree with them. So, they disrespected their AAA vinylphile customer base by lying to them for over a decade! It wasn’t because 256 is better, it’s because they could make more money by not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I know the editor of an Italian audio magazine that issues LPs for EMI. Abbey Road produces the DSD files for him, since they absolutely will not send out their master tapes. He then cuts the lacquer from the files. He is absolutely upfront about this on all the promotional materials, and the LPs sound excellent. All of them better than the original English EMI releases that I have. For a few select titles, he also managed to get a 1/2" 15ips 1:1 copy of the master tape, which he will be using for a limited release of tapes. I have the tapes, but the LPs he sent me are of different titles. I need to get hold of the LPs of the same titles to see how much difference there is between the LPs cut from DSD and the analogue tapes. Interestingly, I have a number of MFSL titles from the 1980s, those pressed by Victor in Japan, of which I also have the same titles on tape (1:1 copies of production or safety masters). I believe the old MFSL LPs were all analogue. I have only done a thorough comparison of one title, the Solti Beethoven 9th, so far. The tape is far superior.

 

[Bergm@nn]

In this video Michael says: “90% of the time I can hear it [a digital step], and I’ve said it.”

Michael goes on to say: “I never suspected they were cut from digital. I heard something I didn’t like. I thought it was maybe only EQ related.”

So if Michael did not suspect that these Mobile Fidelity releases were cut from digital, were these Mobile Fidelity releases in the 10% subset where Michael could not hear a digital step?

Alternatively, Michael is on record as not liking many of the Mobile Fidelity releases in comparison to other releases of the same title. So, if Mobile Fidelity had not misled everybody, perhaps Michael would’ve suspected that the reason he was hearing something he “didn’t like” was as a result of a digital step. In other words, maybe Michael would have suspected a digital step upon hearing something he “didn’t like” if Mobile Fidelity had not effectively foreclosed a digital step as a suspect for what Michael was hearing.

Thanks for posting this Ron. As you highlight

Michael says: “90% of the time I can hear it [a digital step], and I’ve said it.”

But its been harder to track down precisely when he's said it, as its typically an off hand comment on a video here and there and Michael has made more than a few videos!

As I said before I don't really hold anything against him, except I do think he could have been more gracious about Mike Esposito when the story broke.

Anyway, this whole saga is going to make people a lot more wary about shelling out large premiums for 'limited edition' reissues, and will have an impact on everyone in this part of the market place. Its no surprise that Chad decided to get that AP promo video out so quickly - its not just taking advantage of a mis-step from the competition, he needs to fight to maintain integrity, trust and his own margins.

 

[wart]

So new vinyl entered new age - Master DSD.

 

[davidavdavid]

The recent "outing" of a digital step proves quite convenient for MF to claim/claimed to hear something different 90% of the time. Who knows what a digital step actually sounds like, and can MF even unequivocally demonstrate that that's what he actually hearing? It could be something diametrically opposite. It's just that now there's something for MF and others to point to and exclaim 'yeah, I knew I heard something and THAT must be it.'

To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Stewart [Jacobellis v. Ohio 1964]

re: pornography — "I'll know it when I see it"
re: digital steps — "I'll know it when I hear it, and there's a convenient name for it, even if it's not what I'm actually hearing.'

I took my MoFi Miles Davis Kind of Blue (DSD 64 transfer) and borrowed my friend's Analogue Productions Clarity Miles Davis Kind of Blue (Analogue) playing them back to back, and side by side. (multiple systems, multiple turntables) and yes after listening intently and really focusing there are differences, albeit subtle ones between the recordings, but I'll be damned if I can unequivocally point to them and single them out as being the by-product of a digital step.

In my attempts to internally communicate the differences I found myself hearkening back to lengthy discussions I had with Cookie Marenco about audible comparisons between DSD and PCM files.

My concern now is that this is going to rekindle the vernacular of the DSD vs PCM debate, where the latter's qualities and characteristics will be projected upon analogue (read this to mean reissues WITHOUT digital steps).

Have some fun:

1, track down articles where DSD and PCM are being debated and/or discussed
2, grab a couple of the articles and import them into your favourite word processor
3, find and replace all instances of the term PCM with analogue
4, re-read the articles
5, take note of the adjectives and descriptive phrases

Don't be too surprised if you start hearing/reading them crop up in the near future when fellow audiophiles are talking and/or writing about the sound of albums absent of digital steps in terms originally reserved for PCM when contrasted with DSD.

 

[howiebrou]

He likes another pressing, well that goes with any format. Sorry I had American LPs, then purchased Japanese LPs and then German LPs, versions, and guess what they sound a bit different. I have friends who own MoFi LPs and raved about how good they sounded, and that's all that counts, now they suck? Give me a break, people follow opinions like sheep. Want the Best Beatles then find the "Blue" Parlaphone 14 LP Boxset, Stones find the German Telefunken label ones. Michael also knows that most LPs released are cut from digital. EQ related is on most new releases, that to them is they are improving the faults of early vinyl and guess what they use digital to do so, so with vinyl being purchased again they must be doing something right, and a big part is they sound good enough to the buyers, this purity test for sound quality is a joke in today market, want the best they find used 1st pressing LP's or go to reel-to-reel which smokes all vinyl.

But in the end, it is what you enjoy, I enjoyed vinyl for 30 plus years and owned all 1st pressings, 1/2 speed masters, MoFi, M&K, Sheffield Labs, and on and on. I owned the 1st pressing of the 1957 Elvis Christmas LP, the rarest of rare. I would never ever buy a CD I swore.

I then heard a CD and a real good player in 1999 and I threw away my prejudice against digital and started collecting CDs to this day, I never looked back sound my collection for $$$$$. Now I have 1,500 CD and counting from all over the world like my Vinyl collection.

I still have not read or seen anyone say that their Mofi now sucks because they are aware of a digital step. Yet this is mentioned ad nauseum by many people who defend MoFi or believe that the main issue is the sound and not the dishonesty. I would like to see links to people's comments, if convenient, where they think the sound of their vinyl changed overnight after this discovery.