Do SACD players compromise on redbook CD playback quality ?

[bmichels]

Do CD/SACD players compromise on redbook CD playback quality ?

I have +1000 RB CD, but also few SACD. Since I need to buy a player, I thought that a CD/SACD player will be more universal than a "plain" CD player. But... I do not want to compromise on CD Playback for the opportunity to play few SACD !

In other word, does a CD/SACD player can play "plain CD" (red book) as well as a pure CD player (NON SACD player) ?

I have heard that SACD mechanism are derivated from DVD drive and are inferior to CD drives ! May be this is valid only for low cost SACD player but not for TOL SACD such as Accuphase, Esoteric, E.A.R. VITUS, Luxman, AMR, T+A..... which uses very complex and heavy-duty CD/SACD mechanism ?


- CD I heard good things of : VITUS SCD-025, Aesthetix Romulus, NAGRA CDP, AMR CD-77 or CD-777....

- For SACD : Accuphase, VITUS RCD-101, ESOTERIC K-03x, TAD D-1000, Luxman D-08u, EAR ACUTE 4 CD + DAC (tubes , Krell Cipher, McIntosh, ...



thanks in advance for your advices (and recommendation on the brands /models)

 

[zztop7]

Good topic.
zz.

 

[kach22i]

Good topic indeed.

I've been reading about CD Recorders/burners , DVD/Bluray multi-disc players and the like.

Seems like a dedicated CD player has an advantage, at least in reading what sort of disc it is, and what part of the machine will be called upon. If it's a unit which only does one thing, it's just going to start up faster and get to the music faster for one thing. Quality is a factor, but that is a within reason type of thing.

Do SACD players compromise on redbook CD playback quality ?

I don't have an answer, but I would suspect so.

 

[thedudeabides]

To answer your question, Probably not.

And don't forget about the Cary 306 SACD unit. A steal at its current used price of $2,800.

And also don't forget that how good a CDP sounds is system dependant and subject to personal biases.

And a well recorded RB can sound superior to SACD.

 

[Barry2013]

My first SACD player was a new Sony 777ES which was great on SACD but not the best CD player.
Next up was an Esoteric XO3SE. Too clinical for my tastes but improved with a DCS Verona Word Clock.
Logical next step was a DCS Puccini followed by the Puccini clock and more recently a Scarlatti clock. Delighted with both CD and SACD replay and see hifi plus review of the new Rossini, but no SACD capabilty unless you go for the DAC and an earlier DCS transport.
Vitus SCD 025 is good but IMHO DCS is better.
I will continue to upgrade my DCS and retain SACD capability.
Used DCS readily available and great service back up from DCS.
MPS 5 is also highly rated by many including members of this forum, but I have only heard it at shows as it does not have much market presence here in the UK

 

[GaryProtein]

I don't have a concrete answer BUT

These are all anecdotal responses.

 

[kach22i]

I don't have a concrete answer BUT

These are all anecdotal responses.

Time for some A/B testing and trusting one's ears.

 

[Ronm1]

I guess I'll add more of this evidence
Years ago with Sony's scd1, RB was excellent. The next box added mch, BUT RB lost something. Not as good as the original box. Oppo's first uni, still have in BR, great value in it's day for a DVD player, nevermind being a uni, but audio certainly seemed like an afterthought, IMHO. Hirez was barely passable but RB sucked. Oppo appeared to agree as next products improved audio quite a bit and became a good base for tweakers. As with all these things audio you are just going to have to listen. What can you live with!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Into the same DAC? Or different DACs built into the players?

Tim

 

[LenWhite]

I've owned the SCD-1, Cary 306 and have a good size SACD and RBCD collection. IMO the SCD-1 was the least seductive with RBCD, and the 306 was very good with both SACD and RBCD - great at it's price. My experience is a little dated now but at the 2011 RMAF I heard the Playback Designs MPS-5, dCS Puccini, Esoteric K-01 and K03, and the EMM Labs XDS1. The MPS-5 and XDS1 were more analog sounding to my ear and played both formats extremely well.

I purchased the XDS1 and have upgraded it to the v2 currently. At this years RMAF EMM Labs showed the new DA2 and Shahin (EMM Labs) told me there will be an upgrade path for the XDS1 v2 equipment starting next year.

IMO the XDS1 v2 is great analog sounding source component for both SACD/RBCD and has a great DAC for digital downloads. The MPS-5 would also be on my list to audition if I didn't already own the XDS1.

 

[microstrip]

The SACD layer is built on top of the CD layer - this means that when reading a CD the laser light passes through one more "noisier" layer than in a simple CD. We can expect that the CD is intrinsically more robust than a SACD. But those who consider that "bits are bits" will see no problem in that aspect.

 

[Luiz Felipe]

In My experience, the redbook layer in a SACD Media usually is worst then the same redbook layer in a only redbook CD. Is not about the player but about the media. I did this test a lot of times with several medias and in 95% of them SACD redbook Layer is worst than Only Redbook Media. About SACD layer usualy is better than a Redbook layer, but some times a very nice Redbook player in a redbook CD is better then SACD in a SACD player, but this is less usual, depends on media and mastering. SME SACD Only medias are some of best SACD medias I know !

 

[jeromelang]

4 issues here as I see it:

1. The pcm content encoded on the cd layer of a hybrid disc is usually subjected to the super bit mapping direct process.
(Mastered at dsd resolution, then downsampled to 16-bit 44.1kHz)
IMHO it audibly affects the high frequency response.

2. The laser reading the cd layer in a hybrid disc needs to go through a semi permissive layer that hold the dsd data.
Some say this compromises the cd retrieval process.
The only way to know is to play some of those Telarc dsd'd RBCDs with their corresponding sacd hybrid discs.

3. SACD players mainly use bitstream type dacs even for decoding pcm data.
How are they audibly different from pcm based dacs is well known and much discussed.

4. The analog output stage of a sacd player is very likely voiced very differently from those employed on a dedicated RBCD player.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Do CD/SACD players compromise on redbook CD playback quality ?

I have +1000 RB CD, but also few SACD. Since I need to buy a player, I thought that a CD/SACD player will be more universal than a "plain" CD player. But... I do not want to compromise on CD Playback for the opportunity to play few SACD !

In other word, does a CD/SACD player can play "plain CD" (red book) as well as a pure CD player (NON SACD player) ?

I have heard that SACD mechanism are derivated from DVD drive and are inferior to CD drives ! May be this is valid only for low cost SACD player but not for TOL SACD such as Accuphase, Esoteric, E.A.R. VITUS, Luxman, AMR, T+A..... which uses very complex and heavy-duty CD/SACD mechanism ?


- CD I heard good things of : VITUS SCD-025, Aesthetix Romulus, NAGRA CDP, AMR CD-77 or CD-777....

- For SACD : Accuphase, VITUS RCD-101, ESOTERIC K-03x, TAD D-1000, Luxman D-08u, EAR ACUTE 4 CD + DAC (tubes , Krell Cipher, McIntosh, ...



thanks in advance for your advices (and recommendation on the brands /models)

G'day mate,
Interesting topic indeed, and one that has had much debate and always will...

In my experience, just to add my 2cts; I've owned many standard cd players, a few top of the line ones as well (marantz, arcam, musical fidelity, NAD, cambridge audio, audio alchemy dacs, aragon dacs, cj, mc-cormack with weiss dacs etc.,) all of these players were excellent one way or the other with standard cd playback. Then I went into cd players with tubes, ARC Ref series, Cary, Cayin and back to c-j, until finally I wanted to try the SACD format, so I started a small collection but didn't have a medium for SACD playback. Went on a "realistic" budget hunt and ended up with the McIntosh MCD301. Fantastic play back on both formats, and couldn't be happier.

Sure there are far better units that probably cost more with their specialized dacs and so on... but this doesn't bother me now since I moved into vinyl. Purchased a decent turntable Rega RP3 with a pretty good cartridge (Ortofon 2M Black) and couldn't be happier. Now I'm enjoying all three formats extremely well (CD, SACD & LP). I'm not going to upgrade the digital at all because of the satisfaction I get out of it is "good enough." There will always be something better along the way but I have started saving my pennies for a top of the line TT, which to me makes more sense since digital is changing rapidly. Who knows what there will be tomorrow. Whereas the LP has been around before I was even born... and still sounds dam fine.

What I learned along the many passing decades; is when it just sounds right, and meets your expectations to around the 90% mark or greater to YOUR liking, just keep it that way. Otherwise, it's going to lead into a roller coaster ride, and the vicious cycle starts again... I have come across those with lofty aspirations trying to reach the ultimate, it will never end for them, and they will simply never enjoy the music.

If your budget permits then sky's the limit. However, there are some very high quality digital play back systems that allow you to experience some great music reproduced on recorded standard formats. At the end of the day, if after you've spent nearly 20 grand on digital playback and your still not enjoying the music, which is clearly the case in many that I have come across, then there is only one answer to that - go vinyl, the LP is simply the best! Ha! (just kidding to those digital experts, I was trying to pull your leg...).
Well, vinyl is the best after all, I better make a run for it before someone starts throwing eggs...

My advice before settling in for one brand, is to try a host of different makes and types, including tubes as the output stage. Take along your best recordings and see if any of the players reproduced subtle nuances that you never heard before, that would be the player to get. Also, my best advice would be to develop a good relationship with your dealer chappy , who may be able to upgrade your unit along the way in case you were thinking of separate dac's or a music server one day. This would be the best way to go so that you get the most return from your investment. Like I said, digital is ever changing, there really is no one format better than the other.

Hope my 2cts helped somewhat, let us know how you go.
Cheers, RJ

 

[Ronm1]

Bottom line, that's why I have separate devices/subsystems for RB and HRez. Actually, when in a serious mood different Sacd, DVDa boxes. Our hobby does tend to make us a little asinine that way. I also live in a vinyl free spinning zone.

 

[bmichels]

thanks a lot RJ for your advice. And you are right when you say "when it just sounds right, and meets your expectations to around the 90% mark or greater to YOUR liking, just keep it that way. Otherwise.... it will never end, and you will simply never enjoy the music"

 

[bmoura]

My experience has been that SACD and Universal Disc Players like the Oppo 103 and 105 play CDs just as well as a CD only player.
The only exception would be the early SACD-1000 from Philips where the Stereo CD playback was compromised to 14 bit audio.