Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

[Steve Williams]

Hi Peter

as for lining the amps up vertically rather than horizontally or moving them further back I just don’t have the room as all of my Master Built Ultra cable is there
The amps however are behind the plane of the speakers

 

[tima]

For the first time in well over 8 years I am extremely comfortable in a chair with my back always where it should be and my feet on th ground. The huge plus is that the back of this chair ends at the base of my scapulae and from the front they are so narrow that the foot print is small. This plus the chair position moved from 11'6" to 8 1/2 feet at the middle of the seat so where I listen in that chair position my ears can be anywhere from 8-9 feet from the speakers

Steve, the chair has a refined look, simple and elegant and I"m guessing a lovely texture to it. Congratulations finding what appears an ideal choice that meets your need. Did you have a small side table with your prior chair when it was further back?

David's suggestion about position is interesting and it worked for you. I may try this in my own room. You probably covered this before, but could you please say your listening triangle distances? Mine is 11' 1", tweeter to tweeter and tweeters to ears.

 

[Steve Williams]

Previously I was 9’6” tweeter to tweeter and 11’6” from speaker to ear.
now I’m 9’6” tweeter to tweeter and 9’ to listening position although ibhVe sat as close as 8’

inside the WASP recommended ratio but it sounds terrific and well focused in spite of no change in toe in

i did have a Zoethecus stand beside my old chair

 

[tima]

Thanks.

 

[ddk]

Steve, the chair has a refined look, simple and elegant and I"m guessing a lovely texture to it. Congratulations finding what appears an ideal choice that meets your need. Did you have a small side table with your prior chair when it was further back?

David's suggestion about position is interesting and it worked for you. I may try this in my own room. You probably covered this before, but could you please say your listening triangle distances? Mine is 11' 1", tweeter to tweeter and tweeters to ears.

Hi Tim,
Where the seating position lands is a function of the room and speaker position and not based on any predetermined distance.

david

 

[christoph]

Oh and I have come to accept through your room and my OCD I will have "grid" carpet in my room and or if there is hard floor treatments at the front of my room there will be some form of grid pattern in the flooring choice.

Having a grid pattern is extremely helpful and makes proper speaker (and chair!!) setup a LOT easier

 

[christoph]

Hi Tim,
Where the seating position lands is a function of the room and speaker position and not based on any predetermined distance.

Can you elaborate how you find the positions for the speakers and the listening chair?
Do you walk around the room and listen or do you start systematically and then fine tune in an iterative process?
Is your approach similar to the "focal point" method?

 

[tima]

Hi Tim,
Where the seating position lands is a function of the room and speaker position and not based on any predetermined distance.

david

Yes, thank you. Mine is based on where Wilson set them up.

 

[sbnx]

Can you elaborate how you find the positions for the speakers and the listening chair?
Do you walk around the room and listen or do you start systematically and then fine tune in an iterative process?
Is your approach similar to the "focal point" method?

I know you didn't as me and I am sure ddk will chime in with his method. Find the where you are going to sit first. As I showed above moving the listening position by 12-18" can make a huge difference. The easiest way is using measurements as it is easy to see where the bass is the smoothest with no big peaks for large valleys. You can do this by ear but it just takes longer. If I was going to do it by ear I would get a stool with wheels on it. Put it on the centerline move it forward and slowly roll back 1" at a time. I would still use a frequency sweep for this but otherwise I would use something that played a chromatic scale. After this you can move the speakers to further smooth the response.

It will be interesting to see how ddk goes about this. Maybe he has a trick to speed this up or a good CD that he uses.

 

[PeterA]

I know you didn't as me and I am sure ddk will chime in with his method. Find the where you are going to sit first. As I showed above moving the listening position by 12-18" can make a huge difference. The easiest way is using measurements as it is easy to see where the bass is the smoothest with no big peaks for large valleys. You can do this by ear but it just takes longer. If I was going to do it by ear I would get a stool with wheels on it. Put it on the centerline move it forward and slowly roll back 1" at a time. I would still use a frequency sweep for this but otherwise I would use something that played a chromatic scale. After this you can move the speakers to further smooth the response.

It will be interesting to see how ddk goes about this. Maybe he has a trick to speed this up or a good CD that he uses.

This is precisely what Jim Smith did in my room when he first arrived and got started. Listen seat first, based on measured smooth response below 300 hz. Speakers second. Sounds like ddk did it by ear by moving around the room and simply listening.

 

[Steve Williams]

Can you elaborate how you find the positions for the speakers and the listening chair?
Do you walk around the room and listen or do you start systematically and then fine tune in an iterative process?
Is your approach similar to the "focal point" method?

Wilson Audio advocates their WASP technique. As for changes of 12-18" those are huge. When I set up my speakers I was moving them in 1/4-1/2" increments. I have posted here that a 1/4" toeout of the speaker resulted in an 8" change at each ear

The beauty of my carpet is that it served as a grid with the darker horizontal lines being 4" apart from one another By moving the chair forward as I did served to remove the room from my equation and the change in chair for me was a wonderful revelation as the larger chair I previously used was just to tall, too deep and too wide. With the new chair it is as if it is non existent as I hear no chair reflections especially from the top of the chair near my ears. It was as if there was suddenly more music and heard with much more presence and a feeling that I am totally immersed in the sound.

I am still shaking my head about the speaker position and toe in that should be done but in spite of this I love what I am hearing. More of a "you are there" experience

If there is a downside to the whole thing, it is minor and will just take some getting used to.....in the old sitting position, where I was seated, I could easily bend to the side and adjust left and right channel volume (Lamm does not believe in remote controls) very easily. Now I am a few feet further ahead of my preamp and any volume change necessitates my having to get out of the chair to adjust the volume

 

[christoph]

The easiest way is using measurements as it is easy to see where the bass is the smoothest with no big peaks for large valleys. You can do this by ear but it just takes longer. If I was going to do it by ear I would get a stool with wheels on it. Put it on the centerline move it forward and slowly roll back 1" at a time. I would still use a frequency sweep for this but otherwise I would use something that played a chromatic scale. After this you can move the speakers to further smooth the response.

Thanks, sbnx.
What kind of measurements do you mean?
RTA with pink noise should do the trick, right?
I think with your method you also find the "focal point"

 

[christoph]

Now I am a few feet further ahead of my preamp and any volume change necessitates my having to get out of the chair to adjust the volume

This keeps you in good shape

 

[Steve Williams]

Also, have you though about moving the turntable to that first rack, closest to the new chair position? This might be more convenient, but also it gets the table away from the corner and toward what should be a smooth zone in the middle of the room. With all of your treatments, the corner may not be problematic, but I've always thought corners are the wrong place for a turntable.

Hi Peter. I forgot to address this last night. When I first got my turntable it occupied the very spot you mention (where my Taiko Extreme is now). I ultimately moved it into that corner as virtually every vinyl head that heard my system suggested that I move the turntable out of the direct line of fire of the speakers to avoid potentially affecting the turntable. Everyone suggested I move it to that corner which I finally did. To my ears there are no sonic issues where it is due to the room treatments

HTH

 

[Scott W]

Wilson Audio advocates their WASP technique. As for changes of 12-18" those are huge. When I set up my speakers I was moving them in 1/4-1/2" increments. I have posted here that a 1/4" toeout of the speaker resulted in an 8" change at each ear

The beauty of my carpet is that it served as a grid with the darker horizontal lines being 4" apart from one another By moving the chair forward as I did served to remove the room from my equation and the change in chair for me was a wonderful revelation as the larger chair I previously used was just to tall, too deep and too wide. With the new chair it is as if it is non existent as I hear no chair reflections especially from the top of the chair near my ears. It was as if there was suddenly more music and heard with much more presence and a feeling that I am totally immersed in the sound.

I am still shaking my head about the speaker position and toe in that should be done but in spite of this I love what I am hearing. More of a "you are there" experience

If there is a downside to the whole thing, it is minor and will just take some getting used to.....in the old sitting position, where I was seated, I could easily bend to the side and adjust left and right channel volume (Lamm does not believe in remote controls) very easily. Now I am a few feet further ahead of my preamp and any volume change necessitates my having to get out of the chair to adjust the volume

Todd meant overall 12-18". We initially move the listening position in 1/4-1/2" increments.

 

[Steve Williams]

I have found through the initial build out of my room , followed by equipment, speaker and chair placement all have plusses and minuses. IOW you might find sitting in some place will give the best of something but not so good of something else. My room was filled with compromise as everyone said I would blow the back wall off with my speakers but the instructions give to my acoustician was that my speakers and electronics were going to be used. Hence her suggestion (among others she gave) was to use the drapes lined with an OEM product of hers. This solved the problem but as David points out the room is somewhat over damped. I know what the room sounds like without the drapes and there is no way I could use those speakers in my room as the sound was overpowering. So this for me was a compromise I had to mmake

When David did his silent walk around the room and pointed to where he thought the room is taken completely out of the equation the thought fascinated me as near field listening was something I never even considered let alone thought of.

The move forward of the chair by 2.5 feet was a huge plus and then yesterday when the new chair was placed in that position there were just no chair interactions with my ear. The chair was now gone form the room equation as well

For now I am truly enjoying what I am hearing. I am going to live with this for a while before I entertain any changes to speaker position and toe in

 

[Elliot G.]

The other thing about this leather is that it’s a very thick hide and is more absorptive than the last chair which likely was reflective

lol it makes no difference when there is an ass in the seat. I have seen many discussions about the "correct " chair and a correct chair should have the characteristics you mentioned. Lower than shoulder height in the back, upright firm position, comfortable with arms ( for me) only important for comfort and the seat height is also important in the adjustment of the speakers and getting ear level correct. My chairs are similar in concept however I had no issue buying or paying for them since they are available online. I first saw them at a Mercedes Benz dealers waiting room.

 

[Steve Williams]

ing

lol it makes no difference when there is an ass in the seat. I have seen many discussions about the "correct " chair and a correct chair should have the characteristics you mentioned. Lower than shoulder height in the back, upright firm position, comfortable with arms ( for me) only important for comfort and the seat height is also important in the adjustment of the speakers and getting ear level correct. My chairs are similar in concept however I had no issue buying or paying for them since they are available online. I first saw them at a Mercedes Benz dealers waiting room.

I was referring to the outer sides of the chair being absorptive

 

[Elliot G.]

ing

I was referring to the outer sides of the chair being absorptive

I understand but that would make virtually no difference Steve . The back wall might reflex the sound but the outsides of your chair or its back is really stretching to find some sonic difference. I see discussions like this on the site all the time and first and foremost the speakers MUST be in the right spot in the room for great sound all these little items are of little consequence. I am happy you found a great chair as comfort and the corect seating position make for enjoyable listening sessions.

 

[Steve Williams]

I understand but that would make virtually no difference Steve . The back wall might reflex the sound but the outsides of your chair or its back is really stretching to find some sonic difference. I see discussions like this on the site all the time and first and foremost the speakers MUST be in the right spot in the room for great sound all these little items are of little consequence. I am happy you found a great chair as comfort and the corect seating position make for enjoyable listening sessions.

I'm sure you're correct Elliot. Suffice it to say the biggest noticeable improvement was due to the fact that the back of this chair does not come above my mid back. It was a pleasant surprise to hear the sonic changes