Does cable burn in happen in phases?

[Dinkydau]

Hello, I'm looking for advise. The way my system sounds keeps changing. Sometimes it sounds fantastic and then it becomes bad again. I attributed this to cable burn in so I have waited, and waited... it has now been 2 months and it still does not seem to have stabilized. The good periods are usually short, anywhere from a couple of minutes to a few hours. The bad periods are much longer, taking at least a few hours up to more than a day.

The problematic kind of sound is: almost no sense of stereo (imaging), harsh (especially high frequencies), bad microdynamics. This is what many people describe as typical for cables that need burn in.

I wonder if this is normal. Does burn in happen in phases? I normally read it should take ~300 hours. I play all kinds of sounds whenever I can: different styles of music, podcasts, frequency sweeps and specific burn in sounds like the CD from isotek. Nothing works permanently.

I read a lot about this and came across potential solutions that have not helped:
- Noise in mains power. If this is the cause the sound should be better late at night, but this is definitely not it. Even in the middle of the night the sound is sometimes bad and sometimes very good. Regardless I purchased an ifi powerstation, which made a noticeable improvement in quality, but it has not fixed the big problem.
- Cooking the cables. To save money I built my own cable cooker from a cheap amplifier and resistors. I use the setup to play square wave sweeps from 20 to 40000 hz, which is supposedly what the audiodharma cable cooker also does. This caused very noticeable changes, first improving the depth and eventually leading to a very dull sound, which probably means that I have overcooked the cables. It took a few days for that to disappear and now I'm back to the usual fluctuations.

What does help, at least temporarily:
- Playing demagnetization sweeps
- Playing the isotek burn in CD. This works very well, but temporarily
- Turning the system off for at least a few hours

Anyone has an idea what could be going on? I'm confused and I don't know what to do anymore.

Some extra information that may help:
- Speakers: JBL s4700
- Cables: audioquest rocket 88 to which I connected gold audioquest plugs myself
- I'm using a cheap yamaha amplifier (rx v377) because I have not gotten to buying a better amplifier yet.
- DAC: audiolab m-dac+ connected to my computer. The bad sound is not related to activity on the computer (like windows scheduled tasks).
- I'm also using stock power cables for everything.

 

[matakana]

Hello, I'm looking for advise. The way my system sounds keeps changing. Sometimes it sounds fantastic and then it becomes bad again. I attributed this to cable burn in so I have waited, and waited... it has now been 2 months and it still does not seem to have stabilized. The good periods are usually short, anywhere from a couple of minutes to a few hours. The bad periods are much longer, taking at least a few hours up to more than a day.

The problematic kind of sound is: almost no sense of stereo (imaging), harsh (especially high frequencies), bad microdynamics. This is what many people describe as typical for cables that need burn in.

I wonder if this is normal. Does burn in happen in phases? I normally read it should take ~300 hours. I play all kinds of sounds whenever I can: different styles of music, podcasts, frequency sweeps and specific burn in sounds like the CD from isotek. Nothing works permanently.

I read a lot about this and came across potential solutions that have not helped:
- Noise in mains power. If this is the cause the sound should be better late at night, but this is definitely not it. Even in the middle of the night the sound is sometimes bad and sometimes very good. Regardless I purchased an ifi powerstation, which made a noticeable improvement in quality, but it has not fixed the big problem.
- Cooking the cables. To save money I built my own cable cooker from a cheap amplifier and resistors. I use the setup to play square wave sweeps from 20 to 40000 hz, which is supposedly what the audiodharma cable cooker also does. This caused very noticeable changes, first improving the depth and eventually leading to a very dull sound, which probably means that I have overcooked the cables. It took a few days for that to disappear and now I'm back to the usual fluctuations.

What does help, at least temporarily:
- Playing demagnetization sweeps
- Playing the isotek burn in CD. This works very well, but temporarily
- Turning the system off for at least a few hours

Anyone has an idea what could be going on? I'm confused and I don't know what to do anymore.

Some extra information that may help:
- Speakers: JBL s4700
- Cables: audioquest rocket 88 to which I connected gold audioquest plugs myself
- I'm using a cheap yamaha amplifier (rx v377) because I have not gotten to buying a better amplifier yet.
- DAC: audiolab m-dac+ connected to my computer. The bad sound is not related to activity on the computer (like windows scheduled tasks).
- I'm also using stock power cables for everything.

Likely to be your incoming Ground/Earth, acting as an antenna, picking up noise, throughout your building.

 

[Dinkydau]

Can you give some more details? What needs to be done to solve the problem?

 

[agisthos]

It could be solar or electric vehicle charger inverters kicking in. Hence why the bad periods can be many hours, and its random when it occurs.

 

[orange55]

Hello, I'm looking for advise. The way my system sounds keeps changing. Sometimes it sounds fantastic and then it becomes bad again. I attributed this to cable burn in so I have waited, and waited... it has now been 2 months and it still does not seem to have stabilized. The good periods are usually short, anywhere from a couple of minutes to a few hours. The bad periods are much longer, taking at least a few hours up to more than a day.

The problematic kind of sound is: almost no sense of stereo (imaging), harsh (especially high frequencies), bad microdynamics. This is what many people describe as typical for cables that need burn in.

I wonder if this is normal. Does burn in happen in phases? I normally read it should take ~300 hours. I play all kinds of sounds whenever I can: different styles of music, podcasts, frequency sweeps and specific burn in sounds like the CD from isotek. Nothing works permanently.

I read a lot about this and came across potential solutions that have not helped:
- Noise in mains power. If this is the cause the sound should be better late at night, but this is definitely not it. Even in the middle of the night the sound is sometimes bad and sometimes very good. Regardless I purchased an ifi powerstation, which made a noticeable improvement in quality, but it has not fixed the big problem.
- Cooking the cables. To save money I built my own cable cooker from a cheap amplifier and resistors. I use the setup to play square wave sweeps from 20 to 40000 hz, which is supposedly what the audiodharma cable cooker also does. This caused very noticeable changes, first improving the depth and eventually leading to a very dull sound, which probably means that I have overcooked the cables. It took a few days for that to disappear and now I'm back to the usual fluctuations.

What does help, at least temporarily:
- Playing demagnetization sweeps
- Playing the isotek burn in CD. This works very well, but temporarily
- Turning the system off for at least a few hours

Anyone has an idea what could be going on? I'm confused and I don't know what to do anymore.

Some extra information that may help:
- Speakers: JBL s4700
- Cables: audioquest rocket 88 to which I connected gold audioquest plugs myself
- I'm using a cheap yamaha amplifier (rx v377) because I have not gotten to buying a better amplifier yet.
- DAC: audiolab m-dac+ connected to my computer. The bad sound is not related to activity on the computer (like windows scheduled tasks).
- I'm also using stock power cables for everything.

I can highly recommend this: https://taralabs.com/media/cascade-free-burn-in-disc/

I have the file download to music server and I would recommend running it for a few days non-stop, with the volume not too loud.

There is also a thread here which you will see people highly rate it https://theaudiostandard.net/thread/6876/tara-labs-cascade-burn-sound

 

[matakana]

Can you give some more details? What needs to be done to solve the problem?

First , Do triple check that your ancillaries are all correctly electrically in phase.

 

[Dinkydau]

I can highly recommend this: https://taralabs.com/media/cascade-free-burn-in-disc/

I have the file download to music server and I would recommend running it for a few days non-stop, with the volume not too loud.

There is also a thread here which you will see people highly rate it https://theaudiostandard.net/thread/6876/tara-labs-cascade-burn-sound

I already tried that one a few times for like 8 hours, so it hasn't solved the problem yet. Short term it seemed the isotek CD worked faster so I played that one a lot, still without permanent effect. I will play cascade some more.

First , Do triple check that your ancillaries are all correctly electrically in phase.

Do you mean the orientation of the plug? If so, does that really matter so much? I already experimented with that before and couldn't tell an immediate difference. None of my plugs have any indication of which side is live and which is neutral, so I would need a device like this to figure it out: https://6moons.com/audioreviews/kemp/2.html

Based on your suggestion I have moved all non-audio devices (the computer and others) to a separate (electrical) group. I'm not sure if that isolates the ground any better. First impression is that it does sound different. More noisy but also more stable maybe? When I first got the ifi power station I also tried having the computer either connected to the power station or not, and having it in the power station seemed to work best, separated from the rest with an ifi ipurifier. I bought two of those because that was recommended by ifi (and I could hear a difference).

To be clear, these are the 2 groups right now:

Before today I had all the contents of group 2 plugged into the powerstation after the DAC (including the ipurifier to separate audio and non-audio devices).

Looking at this it may make more sense to connect only the audio devices to group 2 to avoid the LED light in the ceiling but I have a long extension cord over the floor now to make this happen, which will inevitably be kicked around, so I don't know what's worse.

 

[Kingrex]

Sounds to me like you found the issue. Dirty power. Try a better filter.
But, that is not going to 100% eliminate it. Your may have equipment that is sensitive to bad power. Like a amp or source equipment. Your also probably experiencing RF noise. Again, certain equipment is more sensitive to RF noise than other equipment. Some people seem to find Snerzinger gear to help with RF. Maybe. Its expensive.

 

[Lagonda]

How old is your amp/preamp ? When capacitors start getting depleted, you can get these swings in sound. Often sounding worse into listening sessions.

 

[Dinkydau]

How old is your amp/preamp ? When capacitors start getting depleted, you can get these swings in sound. Often sounding worse into listening sessions.

10 years. I have another amplifier by the way, which I used as a cable cooker initially, but I also tried just listening to it. It's of similar age and I experienced the same fluctuation. That's a marantz SR4002. I'm using the yamaha now because it sounds more accurate, although less powerful.

Sounds to me like you found the issue. Dirty power. Try a better filter.
But, that is not going to 100% eliminate it. Your may have equipment that is sensitive to bad power. Like a amp or source equipment. Your also probably experiencing RF noise. Again, certain equipment is more sensitive to RF noise than other equipment. Some people seem to find Snerzinger gear to help with RF. Maybe. Its expensive.

How do you know if its power? As far as I know it could still be anything.

 

[Kingrex]

I'm confident it's not cable burn in. Power and RF come in waves. Good and bad. And night does not have to be the best time. Mini splits could be active heating homes. Radio and cell towers don't shut down at night.
And, you said an inexpensive Ifi power station helped a lot. Yet you seem to disregard the evidence.
I don't know the equipment your using is designed to reject power line noise well. It's a $600 Yamaha receiver. And 10 years old. Power quality is getting worse and worse. Problem is, a quality filter is going to cost more than your whole stereo. And I highly doubt you have dedicated 10 awg feeds to your rack. 10 awg wire helps any filter you have to run efficiently and effectively.
You may also have issues with a dirty electrical panel/meter. Loose connections. corrosion causing micro arcs or capacitance.

My suggestion is clean the electrical system in your house and try some other filters. Look on Audiogon for a Audioquest 3000. Or even a Furman Elite 20.

 

[Dinkydau]

I don't intend to disregard evidence, I would just be surprised if power matters that much. Especially considering I already have a filter, how much could there still be to gain? Do you really NEED a very good and expensive filter to get even decent sound? If so, high end audio is a lot more exclusive than I thought and I didn't know what I was getting into when I bought these speakers.

 

[orange55]

Yes, power is key to Hifi, that is what it runs on, like food is key for humans.

 

[Lagonda]

I don't intend to disregard evidence, I would just be surprised if power matters that much. Especially considering I already have a filter, how much could there still be to gain? Do you really NEED a very good and expensive filter to get even decent sound? If so, high end audio is a lot more exclusive than I thought and I didn't know what I was getting into when I bought these speakers.

Rex is a electrician, he is the man with the hammer that sees nails everywhere!

 

[Kingrex]

Well, the OP is complaining about intermittent noise and a basic filter worked. Then he goes all specious on cable break in. He's got nothing to base it on. But that's got to be it. Hoping if he ignores it long enough, the issue will go away.

Power is foundational, and not just my hammer on 120 volt. There are a boat load of USB and ethernet filters. They all seem to work. There are all sorts of LPS for digital equipment. There are a million cables and a host of power strip that are claimed to reduce noise. There is a whole industry around quality filters. And not just for audio. They are utilized in data centers, hospitals, labs. Everywhere. Heck, the NEC now requires you use a Surge Protection Device in every panel in your home and business. Power is that bad. And they know it. And to top it off, more and more companies are coming out with devices to try and mitigate airborn RF and EMF.

I was over on Audionirvana and one senior member there has built some amazing carbon, copper and RF paper plates that he encases his equipment and cables in. I think its genius and will one day embark on making similar for myself. I already do similar with my cables for phono when I use a SUT.

His issue is noise on the power line and probably in the air too.
I am not saying break in is not a phenomena. But if he has 2 months on his cable, that's not it.
Or, as someone else said, there could be issues with the Yamaha. Who know what is going on inside the amp, or something else in the chain.

Phew, I think I got a blister hammering that one out.

 

[treitz3]

At the risk of being flamed here.....

Don't "cook" the cables. Let them burn in naturally.

In the meantime, look at other noise solutions, like Puron's. Maybe the Veri-Fi Snubway and the pairing Main Stream Master Class AC line conditioner. Also, shielded IC's and PC's can help thwart unwanted RFI/EMI from entering the system. FWIW.

Tom

 

[Lagonda]

Well, the OP is complaining about intermittent noise and a basic filter worked. Then he goes all specious on cable break in. He's got nothing to base it on. But that's got to be it. Hoping if he ignores it long enough, the issue will go away.

Power is foundational, and not just my hammer on 120 volt. There are a boat load of USB and ethernet filters. They all seem to work. There are all sorts of LPS for digital equipment. There are a million cables and a host of power strip that are claimed to reduce noise. There is a whole industry around quality filters. And not just for audio. They are utilized in data centers, hospitals, labs. Everywhere. Heck, the NEC now requires you use a Surge Protection Device in every panel in your home and business. Power is that bad. And they know it. And to top it off, more and more companies are coming out with devices to try and mitigate airborn RF and EMF.

I was over on Audionirvana and one senior member there has built some amazing carbon, copper and RF paper plates that he encases his equipment and cables in. I think its genius and will one day embark on making similar for myself. I already do similar with my cables for phono when I use a SUT.

His issue is noise on the power line and probably in the air too.
I am not saying break in is not a phenomena. But if he has 2 months on his cable, that's not it.
Or, as someone else said, there could be issues with the Yamaha. Who know what is going on inside the amp, or something else in the chain.

Phew, I think I got a blister hammering that one out.

I am not saying that you are not right Thor, i mean Rex !

 

[tima]

At the risk of being flamed here.....

Don't "cook" the cables. Let them burn in naturally.

No flames but you may never get the tonearm cable burnt-in that way.

 

[treitz3]

Honestly, Tim? I can agree to that.

Here is why. The lower the signal going through said cable? The longer the burn in time. At least, that's my experience. YMMV.

Tom

 

[Dinkydau]

Thank you for the ideas. It's all very useful. It's possible that the power here is just really bad, because since I live here I've had an unusual number of devices stop working, and the sound was exceptionally good in the morning at first christmas day (when businesses are closed). It does make me wonder how it's possible that playing the isotek CD helps against this. It never leaves my system in a worse state, always better. Maybe it's all just a coincidence, after all, I often start the isotek CD exactly when the sound is bad, so if it's just random it will automatically "improve".

Two purons are on the way. Let's see what that does. Just yesterday I was reading the thread about puron where you, treitz3, posted your experience. If I had spent more time reading about such devices I wouldn't have bought ifi because, while they work, they're not that powerful apparently.

Meanwhile I'm looking at puritan groundmaster city to improve the ground, and/or akiko tuning stick.

I'm inclined to go down the path of collecting more of those small and not too expensive devices. It seems they all have a cumulative effect, even when combined with more expensive filters. For example this user has a collection: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-best-plug-in-filter-ever.35948/page-10#post-976167

It's also good to know that the shielding of cables is essential. You know what: everything is essential. If there's anything I have learned about hifi in the last half year it's that. People often say these details are only ncessary to gain the last 1% of performance that humans can barely hear. Absolutely not. It's the same with cables and DACs. I have been so confused by stories of differences not being audible, with pseudo scientific explanations and all, while in reality the difference is not just audible, it's big. So that probably applies to everything.