Does cable burn in happen in phases?

[sbnx]

In my experience with cable burn-in and burn-in in general is that it is not a linear process. A lot of products sound pretty good when they warm up out of the box. But shortly after that they drop off substantially. Then it is a roller coaster ride after that until they reach a point where things continuously improve. The point in hours where the cable starts the process of continual improvement depends on the cable. It can be 100 hours or 500 hours.

 

[Gregm]

I don't intend to disregard evidence, I would just be surprised if power matters that much. Especially considering I already have a filter, how much could there still be to gain?

There is a lot to be gained, clean power matters a lot, to the extent that equipment will not function correctly and the resulting sound will be muffled, vocals unintelligible, etc. Your power lines seem to have lots of switching power supplies connected that inject noise into the power circuit.
At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, I recommend you purchase two or three "DC filters" and then get a electronics-savvy friend, better still an electrician, to place them in your power lines powering your system.

Do you really NEED a very good and expensive filter to get even decent sound? If so, high end audio is a lot more exclusive than I thought and I didn't know what I was getting into when I bought these speakers.

Of course you don't NEED an expensive filter; Furman filters mentioned elsewhere are excellent and reasonably priced. But try investing a few $ in dc filters first. Good luck!

 

[Kingrex]

Don't buy a groundmaster. Akiko tuning sticks, not sure. I have a Corelli and it does little.

You can quickly over filter too.

Put SPD in your electrical panel. Buy 2. They have more affect as you load them up. You will not hear them. But they save equipment.

A cheap RF filter on cable is conductive mylar braided tubing. Sleave it over your cables and wrap it down with dead soft 20 awg silver wire from Rio Grande. Or bare copper 20 awg. Only terminat the wrapping cable on the source side. It won't do much for your issue. Its better for stopping hum and radio stations in phone cable from a SUT.

Run a dedicated 10 awg wire from the panel to a single duplex. Run 2 #10 if your at it. Your Ifi filters will work much better.

Clean you panel with Deoxit DN5S-2N and torque all wires in your panel. Replace the breaker feeding the line to your audio. If you don't run a new #10, open every box the audio circuit it on, trim the wires, spray with deoxit and terminate with a pigtail. Screw the wire to duplex and switches. Do not stab in the back.
Rex, the Hammer.

 

[Lagonda]

Don't buy a groundmaster. Akiko tuning sticks, not sure. I have a Corelli and it does little.

You can quickly over filter too.

Put SPD in your electrical panel. Buy 2. They have more affect as you load them up. You will not hear them. But they save equipment.

A cheap RF filter on cable is conductive mylar braided tubing. Sleave it over your cables and wrap it down with dead soft 20 awg silver wire from Rio Grande. Or bare copper 20 awg. Only terminat the wrapping cable on the source side. It won't do much for your issue. Its better for stopping hum and radio stations in phone cable from a SUT.

Run a dedicated 10 awg wire from the panel to a single duplex. Run 2 #10 if your at it. Your Ifi filters will work much better.

Clean you panel with Deoxit DN5S-2N and torque all wires in your panel. Replace the breaker feeding the line to your audio. If you don't run a new #10, open every box the audio circuit it on, trim the wires, spray with deoxit and terminate with a pigtail. Screw the wire to duplex and switches. Do not stab in the back.
Rex, the Hammer.

Good advice Thor ! I am adding 2 more dedicated line to my panel soon, i will do what you describe here.

 

[Kingrex]

There is a lot to be gained, clean power matters a lot, to the extent that equipment will not function correctly and the resulting sound will be muffled, vocals unintelligible, etc. Your power lines seem to have lots of switching power supplies connected that inject noise into the power circuit.
At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, I recommend you purchase two or three "DC filters" and then get a electronics-savvy friend, better still an electrician, to place them in your power lines powering your system.

Of course you don't NEED an expensive filter; Furman filters mentioned elsewhere are excellent and reasonably priced. But try investing a few $ in dc filters first. Good luck!

What do you mean by DC filter? What brands and type.

If ethernet to a streamer, I would try a Etherregen switch as a starting point. Put it on the rack with a 3 foot cable to the server

I'm open to the idea a3 foot cable is not the right for ethernet. I don't know at what length reflections happen.

 

[Gregm]

What do you mean by DC filter? What brands and type.

If ethernet to a streamer, I would try a Etherregen switch as a starting point. Put it on the rack with a 3 foot cable to the server

I'm open to the idea a3 foot cable is not the right for ethernet. I don't know at what length reflections happen.

It's a "DC blocker" (sorry if I misnamed it); it is a simple circuit that blocks out DC current & audio contained in the power from the mains. Available online plentifully even from cheapo suppliers. Regards

 

[Ted Denney III]

100%, yes, absolutely. And you can apply different voltages, currents, frequencies, at different wave forms, and even multiple frequencies at different Delta phase point relationships, to affect the final outcome of break-in. It’s not only breaking in, it also voices the Cable when done strategically.

Theodore W Denney III
Lead Designer / CEO Synergistic Research Inc.

 

[Kingrex]

100%, yes, absolutely. And you can apply different voltages, currents, frequencies, at different wave forms, and even multiple frequencies at different Delta phase point relationships, to affect the final outcome of break-in. It’s not only breaking in, it also voices the Cable when done strategically.

Theodore W Denney III
Lead Designer / CEO Synergistic Research Inc.

If you do as such, say cook a wire, then insert the cable into the system, won't the cable then begin to drift and shift as it settles to the environment it's in. Ultimately going through a different break in process.

Also, what is changing in a wire when it's breaking in. The crystal structure is altered when you bend a wire. Does it change when you run current through it? What actually occurs to the molecules to have a sonic change. And, can you measure a change in a wire over 500 hours as it sits in a circuit that is not doing anything to damage it such as overheating the wire.
Thanks

 

[Dinkydau]

Okay, new result: two puron filters have been in use for the recommended 30 hours. The sound seem to be more immediate, less thin, but the original problem still remains. I don't think there's any improvement at all. It was worth trying and probably still a good investment for later.

So now I'm back to believing it's burn in related.

In my experience with cable burn-in and burn-in in general is that it is not a linear process. A lot of products sound pretty good when they warm up out of the box. But shortly after that they drop off substantially. Then it is a roller coaster ride after that until they reach a point where things continuously improve. The point in hours where the cable starts the process of continual improvement depends on the cable. It can be 100 hours or 500 hours.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I can confirm the initial drop off. That one is the worst, not pleasant to listen to at all. All sound comes from a single point in space (for each speaker), and there's a force behind transients, as if it's fired at your ears from a gun. After that it turned into a rollercoaster ride indeed, with good and bad periods, but it never gets as bad as that first drop off. That's just unlistenable.

100%, yes, absolutely. And you can apply different voltages, currents, frequencies, at different wave forms, and even multiple frequencies at different Delta phase point relationships, to affect the final outcome of break-in. It’s not only breaking in, it also voices the Cable when done strategically.

Theodore W Denney III
Lead Designer / CEO Synergistic Research Inc.

That makes sense. If there's such thing as "overcooking", then apparently the sounds played affect the behavior of the cable.
If you have any particular strategies I would be interested.

I hate this by the way. It would be so much easier if cables performed the same, always. I'm even more interested if there's a cable that does not need burn in. A possible candidate I came across are the cables from inakustik. They are designed in such a way that the metal wires (copper/silver) touch almost only air instead of plastic. This is relevant for the following question by Kingrex:

If you do as such, say cook a wire, then insert the cable into the system, won't the cable then begin to drift and shift as it settles to the environment it's in. Ultimately going through a different break in process.

Also, what is changing in a wire when it's breaking in. The crystal structure is altered when you bend a wire. Does it change when you run current through it? What actually occurs to the molecules to have a sonic change. And, can you measure a change in a wire over 500 hours as it sits in a circuit that is not doing anything to damage it such as overheating the wire.
Thanks

That is indeed my experience with cooking. Overcooking made the sound dull. Even white noise was dull. That went away so there's definitely another break in process.

All sources I have found that make claims about how it works say it's the insulation material that causes the biggest problem (settling after bending takes less time). It has to do with static charge. See for example https://nordost.com/blog/what-is-cable-burn-in/ and https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/breaking-in-cables-and-components/ .

Don't buy a groundmaster. Akiko tuning sticks, not sure. I have a Corelli and it does little.

You can quickly over filter too.

Put SPD in your electrical panel. Buy 2. They have more affect as you load them up. You will not hear them. But they save equipment.

A cheap RF filter on cable is conductive mylar braided tubing. Sleave it over your cables and wrap it down with dead soft 20 awg silver wire from Rio Grande. Or bare copper 20 awg. Only terminat the wrapping cable on the source side. It won't do much for your issue. Its better for stopping hum and radio stations in phone cable from a SUT.

Run a dedicated 10 awg wire from the panel to a single duplex. Run 2 #10 if your at it. Your Ifi filters will work much better.

Clean you panel with Deoxit DN5S-2N and torque all wires in your panel. Replace the breaker feeding the line to your audio. If you don't run a new #10, open every box the audio circuit it on, trim the wires, spray with deoxit and terminate with a pigtail. Screw the wire to duplex and switches. Do not stab in the back.
Rex, the Hammer.

What's wrong with the groundmaster?
Changing the wiring in the house may be something for later and only if it's really important. I'm not looking forward to doing that because I'm renting.

 

[Kingrex]

@Ted Denney III
Another question. What do you think about Schnerzinger and their filters that inject signals into the air to cancel RF or EMF. Do you have a comparable product. Can you say how they are similar or different.

 

[Kingrex]

Okay, new result: two puron filters have been in use for the recommended 30 hours. The sound seem to be more immediate, less thin, but the original problem still remains. I don't think there's any improvement at all. It was worth trying and probably still a good investment for later.

So now I'm back to believing it's burn in related.


Thanks for sharing your experience. I can confirm the initial drop off. That one is the worst, not pleasant to listen to at all. All sound comes from a single point in space (for each speaker), and there's a force behind transients, as if it's fired at your ears from a gun. After that it turned into a rollercoaster ride indeed, with good and bad periods, but it never gets as bad as that first drop off. That's just unlistenable.


That makes sense. If there's such thing as "overcooking", then apparently the sounds played affect the behavior of the cable.
If you have any particular strategies I would be interested.

I hate this by the way. It would be so much easier if cables performed the same, always. I'm even more interested if there's a cable that does not need burn in. A possible candidate I came across are the cables from inakustik. They are designed in such a way that the metal wires (copper/silver) touch almost only air instead of plastic. This is relevant for the following question by Kingrex:

That is indeed my experience with cooking. Overcooking made the sound dull. Even white noise was dull. That went away so there's definitely another break in process.

All sources I have found that make claims about how it works say it's the insulation material that causes the biggest problem (settling after bending takes less time). It has to do with static charge. See for example https://nordost.com/blog/what-is-cable-burn-in/ and https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/breaking-in-cables-and-components/ .


What's wrong with the groundmaster?
Changing the wiring in the house may be something for later and only if it's really important. I'm not looking forward to doing that because I'm renting.

If I had any cable that made my system sound like such crap, I would throw it away and not hope it would change for the better. Some cables are just no good.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Okay, new result: two puron filters have been in use for the recommended 30 hours. The sound seem to be more immediate, less thin, but the original problem still remains. I don't think there's any improvement at all. It was worth trying and probably still a good investment for later.

So now I'm back to believing it's burn in related.


Thanks for sharing your experience. I can confirm the initial drop off. That one is the worst, not pleasant to listen to at all. All sound comes from a single point in space (for each speaker), and there's a force behind transients, as if it's fired at your ears from a gun. After that it turned into a rollercoaster ride indeed, with good and bad periods, but it never gets as bad as that first drop off. That's just unlistenable.


That makes sense. If there's such thing as "overcooking", then apparently the sounds played affect the behavior of the cable.
If you have any particular strategies I would be interested.

I hate this by the way. It would be so much easier if cables performed the same, always. I'm even more interested if there's a cable that does not need burn in. A possible candidate I came across are the cables from inakustik. They are designed in such a way that the metal wires (copper/silver) touch almost only air instead of plastic. This is relevant for the following question by Kingrex:

That is indeed my experience with cooking. Overcooking made the sound dull. Even white noise was dull. That went away so there's definitely another break in process.

All sources I have found that make claims about how it works say it's the insulation material that causes the biggest problem (settling after bending takes less time). It has to do with static charge. See for example https://nordost.com/blog/what-is-cable-burn-in/ and https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/breaking-in-cables-and-components/ .


What's wrong with the groundmaster?
Changing the wiring in the house may be something for later and only if it's really important. I'm not looking forward to doing that because I'm renting.

You can definitely fuck up a Cable by cooking it in the wrong way. Just as you can spoil a dish by keeping it in the oven too long. Personally, I would buy cables that are treated by manufacturers in such a way, as to strategically optimize their performance over the life of the cable. This is akin to aging wine in a barrel, and then in the bottle for a period of time. The only thing left then to do, is open the bottle, decant, and wait for the wine to open up. This is analog to the 300 to 1000 hours it takes for a component to completely open up in the system. And by component, I’m also talking cables. At my company, we cook cables for an entire week in what is a drawn out and Complex multi-stage affair. Most of which is proprietary at this point, as it does not serve our market interests to make our processes known to competitors. We seek to serve our customers first and foremost. We do this by building the best sounding product we possibly can, and enabling people to try it at home before making a final decision.

Theodore Walton Denney III
Lead Designer/CEO, Synergistic Research Inc.

 

[Kingrex]

You can definitely fuck up a Cable by cooking it in the wrong way. Just as you can spoil a dish by keeping it in the oven too long. Personally, I would buy cables that are treated by manufacturers in such a way, as to strategically optimize their performance over the life of the cable. This is akin to aging wine in a barrel, and then in the bottle for a period of time. The only thing left then to do, is open the bottle, decant, and wait for the wine to open up. This is analog to the 300 to 1000 hours it takes for a component to completely open up in the system. And by component, I’m also talking cables. At my company, we cook cables for an entire week in what is a drawn out and Complex multi-stage affair. Most of which is proprietary at this point, as it does not serve our market interests to make our processes known to competitors. We seek to serve our customers first and foremost. We do this by building the best sounding product we possibly can, and enabling people to try it at home before making a final decision.

Theater Walton, Denney III
Lead Designer/CEO, Synergistic Research Inc.

What is going on in " burn in". As in, when my cable sits in my system in use. Not what you do at the plant. . What is changing. Outside oxidation. And, can it be measured?

If you say a cable needs 1000 hours use to burn in. That could be a year. Even at 6 months, or 2 months, if you have cables with silver, copper or gold ends and I clean them, i will have tarnish on my cleaning cloth. Rhodium and tin less so. So what amount of break in is the sonic affect of oxidation. Especially between dissimilar metals at contact points?

 

[Ted Denney III]

What is going on in " burn in". As in, when my cable sits in my system in use. Not what you do at the plant. . What is changing. Outside oxidation. And, can it be measured?

If you say a cable needs 1000 hours use to burn in. That could be a year. Even at 6 months, or 2 months, if you have cables with silver, copper or gold ends and I clean them, i will have tarnish on my cleaning cloth. Rhodium and tin less so. So what amount of break in is the sonic affect of oxidation. Especially between dissimilar metals at contact points?

I appreciate your interest in the intricacies of cable burn-in. While I can’t divulge our proprietary methods, I can say that the changes occurring during burn-in are complex and go beyond simple surface oxidation.

Theodore Walton Denney III
lead designer, CEO Synergistic Research Inc.

 

[Dinkydau]

You can definitely fuck up a Cable by cooking it in the wrong way. Just as you can spoil a dish by keeping it in the oven too long. Personally, I would buy cables that are treated by manufacturers in such a way, as to strategically optimize their performance over the life of the cable. This is akin to aging wine in a barrel, and then in the bottle for a period of time. The only thing left then to do, is open the bottle, decant, and wait for the wine to open up. This is analog to the 300 to 1000 hours it takes for a component to completely open up in the system. And by component, I’m also talking cables. At my company, we cook cables for an entire week in what is a drawn out and Complex multi-stage affair. Most of which is proprietary at this point, as it does not serve our market interests to make our processes known to competitors. We seek to serve our customers first and foremost. We do this by building the best sounding product we possibly can, and enabling people to try it at home before making a final decision.

Theodore Walton Denney III
Lead Designer/CEO, Synergistic Research Inc.

Does this sound like such a fuckup to you? All I can find about overcooking is that it leads to a dull sound, and that it goes away. That has been my experience, but it took more than 2 days, so I probably overdid it by a lot, thinking that more is better. Hopefully it has not caused a permanent bad effect. On the other hand, if the cables are now ruined it would be interesting to do some experiments to try to rescue them.

Look what I just found: (this is a quote from a different thread):

I think music signal is better than pink noise or any other form of high bandwidth signals like square wave or ...

My feeling is high bandwidth signals (applying by both cable cooker or Purist Break-in CD) will magnetize the system.

I prefer to play music for break-in.

If you use cable cooker it is not bad idea if you play de-Magnetizing signal in Ayre CD (track 7):

View attachment 124907

This user suggests the problem with cooking is magnetization, so playing demagnetization sweeps should help. That's what I had already found out without knowing about this hypothesis! Unfortunately it doesn't help permanently thus far. I wonder what happens if I play them very loudly with my cable cooker (which, again, is just an amplifier. I connect the cables to it normally, and instead of speakers I use a 6 ohm resistor.)

 

[Dinkydau]

If I had any cable that made my system sound like such crap, I would throw it away and not hope it would change for the better. Some cables are just no good.

I've seen more people describing their non burned in cables as simply unlistenable. Here is an example of an even more expensive audioquest cable: https://www.audioshark.org/threads/robin-hood-speaker.18121/#post-299386 I quote: "Doesn’t take long for listeners fatigue. 10-12 minutes in my ears are bleeding."
Also interesting: in that thread someone mentions 800 hours to really finish the burn in, beyond just sounding "good". It takes a long long time. Maybe it's the same with undoing overcooking.

 

[Ted Denney III]

I've seen more people describing their non burned in cables as simply unlistenable. Here is an example of an even more expensive audioquest cable: https://www.audioshark.org/threads/robin-hood-speaker.18121/#post-299386 I quote: "Doesn’t take long for listeners fatigue. 10-12 minutes in my ears are bleeding."
Also interesting: in that thread someone mentions 800 hours to really finish the burn in, beyond just sounding "good". It takes a long long time. Maybe it's the same with undoing overcooking.

Cable, break-in, and cable conditioning are two different things. When you open a bottle of wine, decant it, that that’s break-in. But when you age the wine first in an oak barrel, that’s conditioning.

 

[Elliot G.]

I appreciate your interest in the intricacies of cable burn-in. While I can’t divulge our proprietary methods, I can say that the changes occurring during burn-in are complex and go beyond simple surface oxidation.

Theodore Walton Denney III
lead designer, CEO Synergistic Research Inc.

Is the process a bottle of wine and a cigar?

 

[Ted Denney III]

Is the process a bottle of wine and a cigar?

Bourbon

 

[Kingrex]

I thought I was clear in not asking what Synergistic R does at the plant. I don't care. I was hoping someone with tools and a degree could explain what is happening to a wire as it sits in your system with a very low level of power moving through it. And could it be measured.

I have seen what happens when you heat a cable. First it gets soft. As you continue to heat it, the wire gets hard and brittle.

My thought is over time it breaks down, adds crystal boundaries, gets harder, oxidixes and the dissimilar contacts react and eat away at each other. Not sure how that makes it sound better.