Does the "high end" drive the progress of consumer audio?

[Phelonious Ponk]

I will re-post some sentences I posted in another thread, they fit better here.

Perhaps if we would first debate on what were the real improvements we would arrive somewhere.

IMHO, the great improvement in audio has been in a successive removing of the euphoric layers, keeping the musicality of sound reproduction. Most of the time, accurate sound resulted in a dry, non involving sound. We have today great equipment that manages to have a good balance between accurate and musical. High-end took a major part in this task.

The debate is not easy. Proper research should be carried reading or listening to existing recorded documentation and analyzing it . Unhappily all existing records are a mix of technical achievements and marketing and it is not easy to separate what was cause and what was consequence. And remember that may consumer brands, such as Sony, Pioneer, Denon and Onkyo, had high-end lines in their mother-land, that were not exported to foreign markets - the audio world does not end at the US border. They use this lines to develop many concepts that later entered consumer electronics.

You're welcome to start that thread, Micro, but here, I'm interested in clear technological breakthroughs that went on to become ubiquitous, impacting the broad world of CE. Gary's first useable class D amp is a great example. We know it was a breakthrough. We know who invented it. We know it has benefited CE broadly.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, simply because you don't know something doesn't mean it's not true.

I can't argue with that logic, and if I tried, my wife is right here to set me straight!

All three of my proposed innovations count under your original conditions, even though you gave Gary credit for one of them

Well, they might meet all of the conditions, but we'll have to know who invented them to be sure. Exotic metals and diamonds, for example may have first been used in pro audio. I doubt it, but I'd like to know. And diamonds won't count, even if B&W did invent them; they have not trickled down to Consumer Electronics. I should have given you co-credit, sorry. Gary actually brought up Infinity's class D amp on page one.

BTW, the Infinity class D amp was very definitely aimed at the high-end market, and at that time Infinity was still definitely a boutique manufacturer, owned by Arnie Nudell and just barely moved out of his garage. They had yet to produce the first IRS, the direct predecessor of Gary's current flagship speakers.

They were definitely out of the garage, a pretty large-scale speaker manufacturer, and cutting deep into midfi territory. Only if you could separate their flagship products from the rest of the line would the Infinity of 1977 look at all like the current "high-end." An Infinity ad from 1977:

B&W and TAD have patents for the diamond tweeter and the beryllium deposition process respectively.

Then if we know TAD's was the first use of metal for tweeters, we have #2.

Tim

 

[garylkoh]

I should have given you co-credit, sorry. Gary actually brought up Infinity's class D amp on page one.

Actually, rbbert beat me to the punch - his was on post #14, I was late to the party and read his entry only after I posted and was post #16.

 

[rbbert]

You're also continuing to ignore HDCD, developed by Keith Johnson of Reference Recordings. If you don't know the details of this, you really have no business being the arbiter of anything in this forum (no smiley).

 

[rbbert]

And if you're going to be picky about a boutique manufacturer becoming successful and therefore "ineligible", this topic becomes a farce.

B & W would also be "ineligible" under this philosophy since they are among the largest speaker manufacturers in the world.

 

[microstrip]

You're welcome to start that thread, Micro, but here, I'm interested in clear technological breakthroughs that went on to become ubiquitous, impacting the broad world of CE. Gary's first useable class D amp is a great example. We know it was a breakthrough. We know who invented it. We know it has benefited CE broadly.

Tim

Tim,

If you are looking only for clear technological breakthroughs, I doubt you will find any thing new.

Even class D amplifiers are not a technological breakthrough coming from audio. A class D amplifier is just a PWM (Pulse-width modulation) binary type device, that was used long before audio though about it in control systems to apply partial power to motors or other loads. The first reported audio application comes from the 60's, the Sinclair X10, a 10 W audio amplifier kit. http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=81139

Again IMHO, the real breakthrough comes from understanding what is needed and using the available technology creating an innovative way of pursuing it. For many activities the way of getting intellectual property of it are scientific publications or patents, something usually not possible in high-end.

Consider a recent case, the Nelson Pass SIT semiconductor. It is a fantastic development, but should we consider developing new semiconductors a breakthrough in audio?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

And if you're going to be picky about a boutique manufacturer becoming successful and therefore "ineligible", this topic becomes a farce.

B & W would also be "ineligible" under this philosophy since they are among the largest speaker manufacturers in the world.

I just started a thread rbbert, I didn't declare myself arbiter of anything. But I started the thread, so I get to ask the question. And I'm not ignoring HDCD. What I was asking for was innovations that started in the high end, which broadly benefited mainstream CE. Now that I've put it differently maybe you'll understand why I don't think HDCD qualifies.

And I didn't get picky about Infinity getting successful, I counted their class D amp as a "high-end" innovation. Regardless, Infinity was no boutique manufacturer in 1977.

Tim

 

[es347]

Please name the audio breakthroughs that have been made by "high end" manufacturers, then broadly adapted by consumer audio.

Tim

Like an attorney asking a question for which he already knows or at least thinks he knows the answer..

 

[rbbert]

In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

Tim

Well, HDCD was included in numerous CD and DVD players in the decade from 1995-2005 (when it was acquired by Microsoft) including players from Toshiba, Rotel, Marantz, Denon and many more.

 

[mep]

Carver licensed his magnectic field power supply technology to Yamaha. Nelson Pass/Threshold licensed the Stasis amp technology to Nakamichi.

 

[MylesBAstor]

HDCD was created by Pacific Microsonics. Is that a high-end, audio company? I honestly don't know.

Mike "Flash" Plaumer (now with his Berkeley Audio digital products discussed on the board) and KOJ developed HDCD and the Pacific Microsonics A2D and D2A. You might even be surprised that many of your CDs were mastered with the PM convertor, of which there were 200 (roughly depending on which series we're talking about) made and snapped up by the best studios around. Oh, and Alon at Magico has the PM convertor and uses at shows when demoing his speakers. It's a pretty special unit.

While on the subject, did you know that KOJ for a while had worked with Onkyo and designed some excellent sounding $1200 speakers about 20 years ago?

Or take another KOJ contribution to recording, that being the development of the focused gap tape deck used in all the early RR recordings, not to mention other companies.

Or you can read and educate yourself on the background of Andreas Koch, the designer behind the excellent Playback Design digital gear.

Or we could talk about the work of Mark Porzilli, who received his PHD in physics at a very young age (I seem to remember 21) who designed the Melos series of electronics, Pipedream speakers and this latest, very unique approach to digital playback:

http://www.thememoryplayer.net/#!d2d

Or what about Dick Burwen? What about Edward Villchur? What about Peter Lederman? The list goes on and it would probably take a month to go through it all...

 

[NorthStar]

----- [HDCD]

 

[Gregadd]

DR. Dolby!Dr. Bose!

If anyone is not aware of their contributions I'll be happy to explain. Dolby NR was ubiquitous. Dr. Dolby's attempt to build a speaker that would sound decent in a college dorm room.

It just boggles the mind that someone who claims to be informed about the high end does not know these things.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There's a lot about the high-end that I don't know, Myles, and I have no trouble admitting that, thus the "honestly, I don't know."

DR. Dolby!Dr. Bose!

If anyone is not aware their contributions I'll be happy to explain. Dolby NR was ubiquitous. Dr. Dolby's attempt to build a speaker that would sound decent in a college dorm room.

It just boggles the mind that someone who claims to be informed about the high end does not know these things.

Greg, are you in the wrong thread?

Just to put this all in context, this started with a discussion between Jack and I in the Absolute Rubbish thread. Jack supposed that the backlash against early solid state and digital (I assumed he was talking about audio hobbyists, because that's where the backlash came from, wrongly called them audiophiles) is what drove the progress in both those technologies. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I tend to believe that it's broad consumer demand that drives product development, not small niche markets of hobbyists. The conversation didn't quite fit over there, so I re-started it here as a simple question. Seems like a pretty good question, and I'm learning things as a result of asking it.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Tim the PC started as a small niche product.

For the record I respect Jack. I dispute there was ever any backlash against solid state in the high end. The high-end judged ss like anything else. Some was good, some bad.

I merely pointed out that Bose and Dolby started out as "niche" products and went on to become very rich. men.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim the PC started as a small niche product.

For the record I respect Jack. I dispute there was ever any backlash against solid state in the high end. The high-end judged ss like anything else. Some was good, some bad.

I merely pointed out that Bose and Dolby started out as "niche" products and went on to become very rich. men.

Sorry I misunderstood you. I'm well aware of the products and successes of Dolby and Bose. I didn't every consider either of them "high-end" or "audiophile," so I didn't know why you were bringing them up, so aggressively, in this thread.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Dolbys' solution to tape noise was in my opinion genius. As was Dr. Boses' attempt to solve the problems of small college room acoustics with cinder block walls. Both were hailed by the high-end press. Do I need to supply proof?

I don't have proof but my observations suggests that most innovations come from niche companies. They have the freedom to step out of the accepted protocol.

 

[mep]

There's a lot about the high-end that I don't know, Myles, and I have no trouble admitting that, thus the "honestly, I don't know."



Greg, are you in the wrong thread?

Just to put this all in context, this started with a discussion between Jack and I in the Absolute Rubbish thread. Jack supposed that the backlash against early solid state and digital (I assumed he was talking about audio hobbyists, because that's where the backlash came from, wrongly called them audiophiles) is what drove the progress in both those technologies. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I tend to believe that it's broad consumer demand that drives product development, not small niche markets of hobbyists. The conversation didn't quite fit over there, so I re-started it here as a simple question. Seems like a pretty good question, and I'm learning things as a result of asking it.

Tim

I do believe it was the case for digital. The mass market was all swooning over the sound of digital when it first came out. The average Joe Blow thought the first digital players and recordings were so good they quickly sold off their record collections. It was the high-end and people who had much better analog setups than Joe Blow that screamed loud and often that something was dead-wrong with digital. I firmly believe that the criticism from the high-end press caused the majors to rethink the technology in order to make it better.

 

[Gregadd]

MEP could it be we were all beta testers for early digital?

 

[mep]

Who were the first companies to provide outboard jitter reduction boxes for digital?? Hint: It wasn't the mass market companies. And yes, Greg, now that you brought it up, the high-end was the beta testers for digital with regards to providing meaningful feedback that the manufacturers could learn from and were the ones to loudly proclaim that baby had a mess in his diapers. They were never going to hear that from Joe Blow whose analog setup was so terrible that when he first heard digital he thought he had died and gone to audio heaven.