ECM records and other labels / studios recording techniques discussion

bonzo75

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Sometimes i think a lot of audiophile, especially the digital only crowd do not get the "golden age recording " appreciation, because their systems are not capable of capturing what makes them special, even after the last 15 switch, power-supply and USB card upgrades ! ;)

Actually, it is lack of exposure. Very few have actually heard the golden age records, they don't even know how to recognize which is original and shock is a recent repress. Many of the repress are pretty poor.

Statements like old is just nostalgia is made without substance because it sounds right. If it is old it must be nostalgia
 
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rando

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In classical music some talk about a "golden age" in performance, but a lot of today's musicians deliver interpretations that stand on their own in excellence. And the technical capabilities of today's classical musicians are on average often better than those of yesteryear.

Consider a period, one at the tail end of where the music had been a constant for at least a few hundred years. Fashions had inevitably came and went along with the times. Taking certain forms or performance styles into a fresh light as it reflected that country or pocket of culture. Until we hit a time where the technology to record it is actively being developed and used by some of the best minds. What came next?

What comes next is mass proliferation, mass production, massed performances, homogeneity of sound and manner across all developed countries. 100K releases of the same 10 composers as the arts die on the altar of 3 minute pop songs. ECM is the German love child of all that. Psycho-acoustic medieval reenactments torn through with free jazz licked and stamped for delivery. They and everyone else took on a highly similar contest to sound the same yet different while slavishly bootlicking any scrap of paper that an expert will agree touched a composers hand. Cue children doing 14 hour marathons in the hotel before all but falling dead on stage in a perfect recital with illegitimate sign of pathos or emotion inserted as required elements (en route to losing a rigged competition). In the grand hopes of being a nobody in a large artistically deadening orchestra or landing on a major to create the 10,001 release of...

Ask yourself what this sort of alien perfectionism would've been greeted with if staged at any point in history nearer the original event. Overripe fruit and a refusal to any stage until having re-ascended through the ranks is most likely. Because art was taken very seriously by even those in the stalls. The Golden Age of recording was but the first large burst of appreciable efforts. It would be disingenuous to not allow digital a level of maturity reaching what vintage analog sounds like right now with everything high end playback entails. We all know for a fact vintage equipment and recordings sounded nowhere near as good in their day as they do now. We mostly suspect (original Classical) performances were more imperfect acts closer to giving birth; large panics and death, new life being breathed in, dysfunction, beauty, stillborn and premature acts, giants forcing their way into renown, more flowers and congratulations than any room can bear, neurosis that ultimately harm growth and development, and if there is any generosity numerous repeat performances to rave about throughout the rest of life.


Was this considered on topic because I snuck in ECM?
 
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bonzo75

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And there are still phenomenal recording techniques today, both in jazz and classical. I don't get the obsession with a "golden age", neither in recording nor in musicianship.

You wouldn't have heard even one of those recordings we refer to. Not one. Ian has some original LPs but even the originals are extremely tough to pick right. It is impossible to comment on this without getting a lot of originals like we did with the General. Those records just aren't available easily. Classic records, analog productions, modern era are good without compare but quite poor in comparison. Even copies of tapes
 

Al M.

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bonzo75

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You would be wrong then. Nice try.

You have not. You wouldn't know an original from a repress. And yes, most of the active posters on the forum don't. They are just not available. It is worse that you don't know you haven't
 

PeterA

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It is in vinylistas' self-interest to perpetuate the "Golden Age" nostalgia. After all, there are no analog recordings since the late 70s / early 80s, certainly in classical music. Who would want to admit that the world has moved on with continued excellence, if you can perpetuate a myth instead? This is not to diminish the many great classical recordings of the past in any way -- they still remain great today, and should be enjoyed as such; I certainly do -- but time does not stand still.

And hey, there is great new classical music written after 1980, too. I am listening to it all the time -- not just (hardcore) avant-garde, but more "conventional" music as well.

Al, what do you mean by "perpetuate" the Golden Age nostalgia? And how is it in their "self-interest"? What is the myth? I can certainly admit that the world has moved on and music and recordings techniques continue to evolve, but whether or not they reach the same level of excellence can be discussed.

I can understand an economic self interest from a collector and reseller of vinyl records from this era, but you seem to be talking about a larger group of audiophiles and music lovers who agree on this period as being one of supreme achievement. Personally I like rock music from about 1967 to 1974. Perhaps that's nostalgic, but the prices for those original LPs reflect demand and the young still study guitar riffs from Jimmy Hendrix, Jimmy Page, and Richie Blackmore for a reason. We still listen to Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms for a reason. I suppose music directors act in their self interest when including these composers on their programs because people want to hear this music. Given choices, I usually prefer LPs from this period because I think they sound better. I see that as perferrence, not self interest, and no perpetuation, just choice.

Perhaps people simply recognize these performances and recordings techniques coming together in one period as a high point of achievement, a particular moment in time which in their view has not been surpassed. It does not mean that more recent recordings are not excellent and can't be enjoyed. I think people view these Golden Age recordings as something to emulate or reach for, even surpass. They are a reference.

I happen to recognize something special in the European sports cars from the 1960s, paintings from the 1600s, Architecture from the 1860s to 1930s, and see those as high points in their respective areas. Nothing to do with nostalgia, simply an appreciation for these great periods of artistic and engineering achievements.
 
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Al M.

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You have not. You wouldn't know an original from a repress. And yes, most of the active posters on the forum don't. They are just not available. It is worse that you don't know you haven't

Whatever.
 

Al M.

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Al, what do you mean by "perpetuate" the Golden Age nostalgia? And how is it in their "self-interest"? What is the myth?

Peter, I was actually not talking about you; I had other people in mind. Maybe I should have said "some vinylistas".

I can certainly admit that the world has moved on and music and recordings techniques continue to evolve,

Precisely, I know you can.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Al, vinylistas are conspiring...to keep prices high? C'mon, you must know how preposterous that is. Maybe the upper echelon of collectors love hyper inflation, I dont know anyone in the other 99% that do.
You'll be telling us next everyone who loves The American Way is a disaster capitalist.
 

microstrip

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Sometimes i think a lot of audiophile, especially the digital only crowd do not get the "golden age recording " appreciation, because their systems are not capable of capturing what makes them special, even after the last 15 switch, power-supply and USB card upgrades ! ;)
Lagonda,

Then you think differently from me.

Generic appreciation means a statistical approach and a systematic conclusion. If "golden age recordings" only sound extremely good in extreme particular conditions that are not compatible with other high quality recordings they are just a curiosity of great interest for a few us, nothing else.

IMHO "golden age recordings" are very good stereo, but if I depend on a very particular pressing and system to truly appreciate them they would be a failure, not the success they deserve.

Can I ask you what is your currently preferred golden age recording?
 

wil

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Sometimes i think a lot of audiophile, especially the digital only crowd do not get the "golden age recording " appreciation, because their systems are not capable of capturing what makes them special, even after the last 15 switch, power-supply and USB card upgrades ! ;)
Thanks for pointing out that a digital-only system is not capable of playing a vinyl record (golden or otherwise). And, conversely, a vinyl-only system will never be able to deliver the glories of the Taiko usb card ... so sad. :rolleyes:

I've never heard the rare as hens teeth LP's Bonzo speaks of. I've also never seen the world from the summit of K2. I'm good with lower mountains and the plentiful, varied and spectacular digital recordings available to me.
 

Lagonda

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Lagonda,

Then you think differently from me.

Generic appreciation means a statistical approach and a systematic conclusion. If "golden age recordings" only sound extremely good in extreme particular conditions that are not compatible with other high quality recordings they are just a curiosity of great interest for a few us, nothing else.

IMHO "golden age recordings" are very good stereo, but if I depend on a very particular pressing and system to truly appreciate them they would be a failure, not the success they deserve.

Can I ask you what is your currently preferred golden age recording?
I listen to a lot of Dixieland and Ragtime, please don't judge me, Marc makes fun of my taste for Umpa Jazz bands, i even like old Danish Jazz, what they lack in technique and language, they make up for in enthusiasms, happy
music ! :) This one is by a American, from 1958, and sounds quite good !

D5C60DED-66FA-458D-B705-41A305E5C67E.jpeg
 

spiritofmusic

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I would never judge you, Milan.
I would just say you are so wrong Lol.
 
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andromedaaudio

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May be the " golden age " has to do with this issue , timing / creativity.
By seeing the waveforms on a computer screen , digitalization took some of the creativity away from musicians / producers / recordings .

The vid

 
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