Effects of improved power cords on turntables

[spiritofmusic]

Gilles, after my experience yesterday, I can well believe it.
On this occasion, I’m not paying for a new cable, I’ve swapped it from my cdp, so it was well burned in. Indeed I’m a bit short of funds for upgrades, so I’ll be curious to see how my cdp sounds like w the old pwr cord.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hi Ked, I’m so surprised at you that you don’t make your Masala Chai in a saucepan. Maybe we should talk electrical power to cookers instead?

 

[lordcloud]

Didn't Albert Porter say the same or a very similar thing? That changing power cords on his table's power supply made an audible and appreciable difference.

 

[ddk]

No disrespect Dave, but your word isn’t gospel. You may think it is, but it isn’t.
It’s made a difference here, that’s all that matters.

Nothing to do with my word Mark, there’s something called common sense !

 

[microstrip]

Nothing to do with my word Mark, there’s something called common sense !

My common sense tells me that many modern turntables have digital controllers, sometimes poorly designed by analog designers with little experience in digital systems, that generate a lot of electrical noise that can affect sound quality. In such conditions it is possible that power cords can have an effect in sound quality. Surely I do not expect power cables to have any effect in the EMT927. It is why I dream about getting one, I could spare the money of the power cable!

 

[ddk]

My common sense tells me that many modern turntables have digital controllers, sometimes poorly designed by analog designers with little experience in digital systems, that generate a lot of electrical noise that can affect sound quality. In such conditions it is possible that power cords can have an effect in sound quality. Surely I do not expect power cables to have any effect in the EMT927. It is why I dream about getting one, I could spare the money of the power cable!

How Francisco? Just because you pay ridiculous money for a power cord doesn’t mean laws of physics suddenly changed ! How many come with built in filtration anyway?

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
My theory is that this power cord is absolutely lowering noise floor, smoothing supply, and any advance to minimising imperfections but transmit less hash to the stylus.
. . .

Marc, do you think you could blind A/B which is which reliably? (I am not trying to start an argument I am just asking out of curiosity.)

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Next you’ll tell me that you put one of those cords on your electric kettle and it changed the taste of the water!

david

 

[KeithR]

If you had a power cable that acted as an antenna and received every TV/Radio station/all EMF available in the world. How is this audio noise going to get through a quality power supply, through an electrical motor and then through the rubber idler wheel into the platter through the record and to be picked up by the stylus.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but we are talking about the power cord from the wall to the power supply, correct?

And yes there are power supply upgrades for turntables for more accuracy in speed, which in turn translates into better sound, but it isn't the power cord doing it.

+1.

 

[Folsom]

+1.

Actually it's possible... but it depends on a fair amount of factors. I'm not going to try and fit 400 pages or so from an EMC book to explain it all in this thread thou.

If you have a separated motor with a grounded enclosure, then it's not going to transfer. There are a lot of ways for it to not transfer.

 

[tima]

My common sense tells me that many modern turntables have digital controllers, sometimes poorly designed by analog designers with little experience in digital systems, that generate a lot of electrical noise that can affect sound quality. In such conditions it is possible that power cords can have an effect in sound quality. Surely I do not expect power cables to have any effect in the EMT927. It is why I dream about getting one, I could spare the money of the power cable!

If a digital controller had a switching power supply I can imagine how the PS could put noise back on the line and conceivably that noise could impact downstream electronics.

How would noise from a digital controller affect turntable or motor operation, or otherwise sound quality?

EMI through an unshielded phono cable?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Years ago, I was intimidated by all the objectivist naysayers on cables, grounding boxes, etc etc.
Do an a/b all day long, it can’t work, you can’t beat physics etc etc.
Now I know that the only thing that matters is what I hear, I’m confident to say no thanks to all the naysayers.
So Ron, I’ve already done the a/b, I put the new pwr cord in and heard a brand new album from one I knew backwards.
So Dave, you’ve been arguing against any expensive cable in systems from day one I’d expect nothing else other than skepticism. Please don’t bring physics into it, you know so much in this hobby can’t be described in pure reductionist terms.
I’m happy to run with my instinct, and luckily still have the funds to indulge.

 

[kleinbje]

Unlike most on this thread I have actually done this. I used a VPI classic 3 and had some slight motor noise when up close, with some associated vibration, I got great sound and stable speed. When upgrading power cables I had an extra RSA Mongoose and plugged it into the table to see if it affected the motor noise. It was clearly audible and reproducible. I had a lower noise floor when I turned up the volume with the table spinning and no stylus in the groove. There was no audible improvement when I added the SDS, adding another Mongoose to the SDS eliminated any remaining vibrational motor noise. I clearly and conclusively hear this effect on the noise floor and ear to motor, whether I could double blind the table with music playing I can't say with any confidence. Knowing the motor noise and subsequent vibration are likely altering in small ways the stylus motion, I kept the cables in place and was happier with the sound. Especially on LP's like astral weeks that I enjoy loud, they have lots of quiet parts where the lower noise floor shows itself. When I upgraded to the Eagle and Roadrunner, I thought it might be silly to reuse the RSA Mongoose cables as there were skinny cheap looking power cables in the same current path(The eagle has a captive low gauge plug). The motor noise returned with stock cables, I went back to Mongoose's. My sound quality improved and motor noise dissipated again. The eagle/RR also improved my TT sound, an effect the SDS didn't have, independent of cables. So I do believe a TT power supply may affect sound as well. Though in that case it might be more of a speed related issue and not noise. To be clear I have no evidence that the cables on my power supply affected the speed, though the displayed speed on the RR definitely seemed more steady , that is purely anecdotal.

Why is this occurring and make no mistake it is, at least in my system? I think Tim A hit a key point about a better cable allowing much less motor noise to be transmitted into the line. It blocks noise coming from the wall and back to the wall better than the standard cable. IMO a lower noise floor. Remember with AC it blocks noise 60 times per second(roughly). I think it's that simple, less noise and vibration. I was alway very skeptical of power components and now utilize some costly models. It is easy to try yourself, plug a new cable into your TT, put your ear to the motor on 33/45 speeds(as I had much more noise at 45), then switch cables I bet you'll hear a difference, not necessarily better, but if you have noise at the motor I think you will be shocked what a cable can do. The next thing is to crank your system with phono selected and the arm over the table with it spinning, do this with both cables. For me I have a hum that starts around 12 o'clock(crazy loud for Naim), with the stock cables on the TT and power supply it started to intrude around 9 o'clock. With my VPI the high end cables were a winner.

I now upgraded to a Clearaudio Compact Wood which ironically has a cheap wall wart and dc plug. It smokes my VPI. There is a second party power supply upgrade for the clearaudio, they want 1k for it so I'm in no hurrry, but I have no doubt it may improve my slight motor noise and improve the sound.

Jeff

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thanks Jeff, you’re response from experience is what I was hoping for when I started the thread.

“Noise is the enemy”, more pertinent than ever.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I use a different cord on my kettle for coffee, earl grey, and masala chai respectively.

Kedar, what kind of shielding on the power cord for the electric kettle have you found tastes best for heating water for English Breakfast Tea?

Have you compared the taste of water heated with a power cable utilizing a full braid shield with the taste of water heated with a power cable using a drain wire connected only at one end?

Have you tried plugging the electric water heater into an isolation transformer?

 

[KeithR]

I dont even think cable manufacturers believe this.

Honest think you need a new power supply. Have you measured speed both ways?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Keith, the cable companies really are missing a trick.

They could say that one’s analog is improved, and one will be more attractive to women, more successful at work, and make friends more easily.

Maybe even improve one’s forehand.

That should do it.

 

[KeithR]

Well Keith, the cable companies really are missing a trick.

Why don't you simply measure speed and get back to us instead of proclaiming the earth is flat

Honestly, if you removed your grounding boxes, Synergistic doodads, mooks, and other tweaks I'd be more curious to hear your results.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Take a Chill Pill, Keith . High end audio is only a highly subjective pursuit, please don’t try to infer there are any objective results to be had.

If you really believe in objective measurements, you really wouldn’t have even considered your Zus for a moment, let alone buy them.

And if you’d read my posts rather than decided I was hypnotised by Foo, you’ll see I’ve removed the Mooks, indeed sold them on, I’ve assessed my Entreq is passable, and I’ve removed my GIKs from the room.

I’ve tentatively concluded the pwr cord has no specific effect on speed, other than by reducing noise floor at the motor.

Whether this actually has an effect on speed I really cannot day, but noise reduction via all my other Sablon cables is a critical reason why they work so well on my other components, I remain open to them working at the tt motor level.

I suppose if you’re saying my claim breaks the laws of physics, well maybe all will be explained when the quantum physicists at CERN find yet another sub-atomic particle, or more Strings get atttached to String Theory.

Or maybe I’m in the one Multiverse where pwr cords ABSOLUTELY have an effect with tt motors.

 

[microstrip]

If a digital controller had a switching power supply I can imagine how the PS could put noise back on the line and conceivably that noise could impact downstream electronics.

How would noise from a digital controller affect turntable or motor operation, or otherwise sound quality?

EMI through an unshielded phono cable?

Any system mechanical system having feedback relies on analog signals coming from sensors - these sensors command the correction signals that affect speed fluctuations. It is not only digital - as soon as you have rectifier diodes they generate RF noise. Although in analog electronic the designers pick better (and more expensive) low noise diodes and capacitors, I do not expect turntable designers to be so careful with their DC power supplies.

Do you remember the Taiko active table thread? No one would expect improvements in performance using a LPS in such application, and those who tried them them told us the improvement was significant.