@Bar81 Thanks for sharing. Wonder what a new DA2 V2 will retail for US MSRP 25? Considering a new DV2 is 30k.
So, the 5K more gets you the pre-amp functionality of the DV2. The DA2 V2 and DV2 should now be identical performance wise.
Emm labs DA2 v2 upgrade
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@Bar81 Thanks for sharing. Wonder what a new DA2 V2 will retail for US MSRP 25? Considering a new DV2 is 30k.
So, the 5K more gets you the pre-amp functionality of the DV2. The DA2 V2 and DV2 should now be identical performance wise.
The DA2 remains DAC only. Retail hasn't changed to my knowledge. Was the same with my old xds1 v2 upgrade.
Sorry guys. Nobody was a bigger fan of the DA2 than I was. That is, until I heard a Lampi GG2. It's not even close. To be honest, I was told the DA2 upgrade would allow for native Quad DSD but I see it does not so that's disappointing. Guys, the Lampi is not only in a different league, but it's significantly less expensive than the DA2 V2. I strongly suggest you get your hands on one to try. (And single ended works just fine). No need to sell the DA2 until you're satisfied with a home trial of the GG2. That should take about 7-10 days for a new unit. Believe me, you won't look back. What's the worst that can happen? If you prefer the DA2, just return the Lampi.
Please don't send me hate PMs.. I'm just trying to be helpful here.
Please don't send me hate PMs.. I'm just trying to be helpful here.
Hi guys,
(1) The DA2 V2 is a major upgrade from the V1. The main analog, power and DSP has been upgraded. I think the new DA2 V2 will retail at $30,000.
(2) When reviewing the Metronome Technologie AQWO SACD/CD D/A processor (Stereophile Feb 21, 2020), Jason Victor Serinus makes an interesting observation: "The newly upgraded EMM Labs DV2, on the other hand, was far less concerned with tonal glow than delivering the most nuanced, layered, and impactful bass of all three DACs [Metronome AQWO, the dCS Rossini DAC and Clock, the upgraded EMM Labs DV2] in my system. On the Shostakovich, Genesis, and Freddie Mercury tracks, as well as the first movement from the San Francisco Symphony's digital-only release of Alban Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra, the DV2 was the low-end champ.
(3) Marty, in what ways the Lampi GG2 was much better than the DA2 (I suppose you are not referring to the new DA2 V2)? Care to share? Thanks.
(1) The DA2 V2 is a major upgrade from the V1. The main analog, power and DSP has been upgraded. I think the new DA2 V2 will retail at $30,000.
(2) When reviewing the Metronome Technologie AQWO SACD/CD D/A processor (Stereophile Feb 21, 2020), Jason Victor Serinus makes an interesting observation: "The newly upgraded EMM Labs DV2, on the other hand, was far less concerned with tonal glow than delivering the most nuanced, layered, and impactful bass of all three DACs [Metronome AQWO, the dCS Rossini DAC and Clock, the upgraded EMM Labs DV2] in my system. On the Shostakovich, Genesis, and Freddie Mercury tracks, as well as the first movement from the San Francisco Symphony's digital-only release of Alban Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra, the DV2 was the low-end champ.
(3) Marty, in what ways the Lampi GG2 was much better than the DA2 (I suppose you are not referring to the new DA2 V2)? Care to share? Thanks.
Yuen
I've detailed my impressions here.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/need-some-lampi-help-please.29452/page-2
It's a long thread, but posts 11/38/39 really get to the heart of it.
Musicality, timbre and especially spatial clues are a significant elevation from the DA2.
It's just more like listening to music with real bloom than music reproduction if the source material is right.
But don't pay any attention to what I say. Trying it in your system will be the only meaningful assessment.
Marty
I've detailed my impressions here.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/need-some-lampi-help-please.29452/page-2
It's a long thread, but posts 11/38/39 really get to the heart of it.
Musicality, timbre and especially spatial clues are a significant elevation from the DA2.
It's just more like listening to music with real bloom than music reproduction if the source material is right.
But don't pay any attention to what I say. Trying it in your system will be the only meaningful assessment.
Marty
Hi Marty
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the Lampi. I have read the entire thread you suggested above. It sounds like we are talking about vacuum tube vs. solid state! I was a tube guy until fairly recently! So, I think I know what you are talking about. Musicality vs accuracy? In that thread, you yourself complains about valve microphony. Does that contributes to the spaciousness and bloom? You also admitted in that thread that your Lampli' bass was not up the standard of the DA2! In my system the Steinway Grand D sounded like the real thing. I have heard a Steinway Grand D up close or in a concert hall setting many times. Still, thank you so much for sharing!
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the Lampi. I have read the entire thread you suggested above. It sounds like we are talking about vacuum tube vs. solid state! I was a tube guy until fairly recently! So, I think I know what you are talking about. Musicality vs accuracy? In that thread, you yourself complains about valve microphony. Does that contributes to the spaciousness and bloom? You also admitted in that thread that your Lampli' bass was not up the standard of the DA2! In my system the Steinway Grand D sounded like the real thing. I have heard a Steinway Grand D up close or in a concert hall setting many times. Still, thank you so much for sharing!
Marty isn't stupid to think valve microphony contributes to spaciousness and bloom. And then there are a zillion others on that thread. I listen to pianos in concert hall on a monthly basis, sometimes weekly. Just last month I have heard the first 4 Beethoven piano concertoes live (for the umpteenth time)
A good basis for discussion Yuen. A few clarifications: The DA2 may go 1 or 2 cycles deeper (we're talking sub 20 Hz stuff here) but the bass on the GG2 with 242 tubes is superb by any standard, and most significantly, less dry and the dynamics are actually slightly better (which is saying something as the DA2 is quite good there as you know). Acoustic bass is preferred on the GG2, at least for me.
Next, I don't think this is a matter of tube vs SS. I'm device neutral and my system is a hybrid of both. But for what a DAC does, I haven't found an equal to the Lampi, whether tube or SS. Of course I have not heard everything. But Nagra, ARC, and other tube or SS DACs are no substitute for the definition and musicality that is the hallmark of the Lampi. Something about those DHT's is all I can surmise. Lastly, I don't have a 9 ft Steinway D in my room, but I do have a 6'4" 1927 Steinway A3. And that is what convinced me beyond a doubt that the Lampi is an extraordinary device. Nothing I've ever heard reproduces a good piano recording like a Lampi. It's what "sealed the deal" for me.
Next, I don't think this is a matter of tube vs SS. I'm device neutral and my system is a hybrid of both. But for what a DAC does, I haven't found an equal to the Lampi, whether tube or SS. Of course I have not heard everything. But Nagra, ARC, and other tube or SS DACs are no substitute for the definition and musicality that is the hallmark of the Lampi. Something about those DHT's is all I can surmise. Lastly, I don't have a 9 ft Steinway D in my room, but I do have a 6'4" 1927 Steinway A3. And that is what convinced me beyond a doubt that the Lampi is an extraordinary device. Nothing I've ever heard reproduces a good piano recording like a Lampi. It's what "sealed the deal" for me.
Well, stupid is a stupid does as Forrest Gump would say, and on occasion, I'm plenty stupid. But no, microphony does not cause bloom. It causes distortion, period. That's why tube lovers have been obsessed with finding tubes that are not microphonic for as long as this hobby has persisted. Some say any and all tubes can be microphonic depending on use and setting. But if a tube has microphony there are certainly things that can be done to minimize, if not eliminate the effect quite adequately (i.e. good vibration free shelving, damping rings, move gear to another room, play at lower levels, etc).
Hi Marty and all,
(1) Once again, thank you Marty for your thoughts on the matter.
(2) I would like to share this abbreviated article from kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm :
"Tube amplifiers sound better because of the euphonic distortions they add to the music, as well as plenty of other reasons I'll cover below. ...
Tube amplifiers measure poorly in the lab specifically because of these added distortions, but these distortions are often a part of what make them sound better.
Even today with an all-digital infrastructure from recording studio to home, professional studio microphones for decades and decades and decades have used tube pre-preamplifiers inside the microphones themselves. Today their outputs are fed to tube preamplifiers before being digitised for recording, mixing and distribution. We use tubes simply because they make the music we create sound better: smoother, warmer and cleaner.
Ditto for guitar amplifiers used in creating music. The ways that tubes distort when pushed to the edge are much more musical than the artificial sounds that come from transistor amplifiers when overdriven. Some transistor guitar amplifiers attempt to mimic tube distortion, but that's a different article.
Of course these are all very broad generalizations, and this is just as much due to circuit designs used with tubes or transistors as the devices themselves, but what are the distortions and other reasons tube amplifiers sound better? ...
Microphonics
Again not particularly good or bad, but tube amplifiers usually have some form of microphonics, meaning that any tapping of the amplifier will result in audible output. Put on headphones and tap your amp, and you'll probably hear it.
In practice this usually doesn't mean much, but it can mean if you have an amplifier close to your speakers and it's microphonic that you'll actually add what amounts to a little bit of extra echo or reverberation as the signal flows from speaker to amplifier (after a delay of about a millisecond per foot of separation) and then comes back out the speaker to repeat the cycle.
Microphonics can lead to a warmer, fatter sound from this extra reverberation. Playing LPs in the same room as your speakers also can lead to this effect; record players are highly microphonic.
(1) Once again, thank you Marty for your thoughts on the matter.
(2) I would like to share this abbreviated article from kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm :
"Tube amplifiers sound better because of the euphonic distortions they add to the music, as well as plenty of other reasons I'll cover below. ...
Tube amplifiers measure poorly in the lab specifically because of these added distortions, but these distortions are often a part of what make them sound better.
Even today with an all-digital infrastructure from recording studio to home, professional studio microphones for decades and decades and decades have used tube pre-preamplifiers inside the microphones themselves. Today their outputs are fed to tube preamplifiers before being digitised for recording, mixing and distribution. We use tubes simply because they make the music we create sound better: smoother, warmer and cleaner.
Ditto for guitar amplifiers used in creating music. The ways that tubes distort when pushed to the edge are much more musical than the artificial sounds that come from transistor amplifiers when overdriven. Some transistor guitar amplifiers attempt to mimic tube distortion, but that's a different article.
Of course these are all very broad generalizations, and this is just as much due to circuit designs used with tubes or transistors as the devices themselves, but what are the distortions and other reasons tube amplifiers sound better? ...
Microphonics
Again not particularly good or bad, but tube amplifiers usually have some form of microphonics, meaning that any tapping of the amplifier will result in audible output. Put on headphones and tap your amp, and you'll probably hear it.
In practice this usually doesn't mean much, but it can mean if you have an amplifier close to your speakers and it's microphonic that you'll actually add what amounts to a little bit of extra echo or reverberation as the signal flows from speaker to amplifier (after a delay of about a millisecond per foot of separation) and then comes back out the speaker to repeat the cycle.
Microphonics can lead to a warmer, fatter sound from this extra reverberation. Playing LPs in the same room as your speakers also can lead to this effect; record players are highly microphonic.
When I was in medical school, it was commonly thought that stomach and small intestine ulcers were caused by stress and eating certain foods. In 2005, two Aussies, Barry Marshall and Robin Warren won the Nobel Prize for discovering that ulcers are the result of an infection of the stomach caused by the bacterium Helicobacter pylori. They proved this with science and astute clinical observation.
Pardon me for saying this but I don't think Ken Rockwell is going to win a Nobel Prize anytime soon. Distortion doesn't make anything sound better.
Pardon me for saying this but I don't think Ken Rockwell is going to win a Nobel Prize anytime soon. Distortion doesn't make anything sound better.
Hi Marty,
(1) He is talking about "euphonic distortions".
(2) We all hear sounds differently.
(3) Listener's impression is formed almost as much by the room/hall itself as by the instruments.
Hi folks
The new DA2 V2 earned more praise from Doug Schneider of SoundStage! Hi-Fi (SoundStage! Hi-Fi, 01, April, 2020: Is This the World's Best Audio System?) :
"So not only do I appreciate what I have in-house at any given time, in the last few years I’ve worked to maximize that experience by carefully curating a system of components, each exceptional in its own right, that also work synergistically with all the other components in that system.
Those components form what has become the best hi-fi system I’ve ever heard -- not just the best system I’ve heard in my room, but the best system I’ve heard anywhere. ...
Most important, it’s an amazing-sounding DAC. With every system I’ve used it in it’s thrown a wide, deep, precise soundstage that no other DAC I’ve heard approaches; it reveals musical details I never knew were there in recordings I thought I knew well, while sounding so smooth that I could swear I was listening to the best analog source. ... The EMM DA2 Reference is also why my system lacks a turntable -- whenever I listen to it, I lose any hankering I might have had for vinyl. That hasn’t happened with any other DAC -- with anything else, I invariably start thinking, Maybe I should look at this or that turntable . . . But when the DA2 Reference is around, that never occurs to me. The only conclusion I’ve come up with is that, sonically, the DA2 delivers everything.
The new DA2 V2 earned more praise from Doug Schneider of SoundStage! Hi-Fi (SoundStage! Hi-Fi, 01, April, 2020: Is This the World's Best Audio System?) :
"So not only do I appreciate what I have in-house at any given time, in the last few years I’ve worked to maximize that experience by carefully curating a system of components, each exceptional in its own right, that also work synergistically with all the other components in that system.
Those components form what has become the best hi-fi system I’ve ever heard -- not just the best system I’ve heard in my room, but the best system I’ve heard anywhere. ...
Most important, it’s an amazing-sounding DAC. With every system I’ve used it in it’s thrown a wide, deep, precise soundstage that no other DAC I’ve heard approaches; it reveals musical details I never knew were there in recordings I thought I knew well, while sounding so smooth that I could swear I was listening to the best analog source. ... The EMM DA2 Reference is also why my system lacks a turntable -- whenever I listen to it, I lose any hankering I might have had for vinyl. That hasn’t happened with any other DAC -- with anything else, I invariably start thinking, Maybe I should look at this or that turntable . . . But when the DA2 Reference is around, that never occurs to me. The only conclusion I’ve come up with is that, sonically, the DA2 delivers everything.
Hi all.
When reviewing the Innuos flagship Statement music server ($13,750 and up), JVS of Stereophile (April 3, 2020) says:
"The DV2 conveys more bass information than the dCS Rossini [plus Clock], and it is more microtonally layered and detailed and better controlled, but it is not as open or as realistically alive on top. The DV2's different cast was, in some ways, a better match for the Statement, with increased and more complexly layered bass compensating for the slight homogenization of color concomitant with the server's slightly warm top." (In my opinion, the fault (the softer top) is not the DV2's but the Innuos Statement music server)
When reviewing the Innuos flagship Statement music server ($13,750 and up), JVS of Stereophile (April 3, 2020) says:
"The DV2 conveys more bass information than the dCS Rossini [plus Clock], and it is more microtonally layered and detailed and better controlled, but it is not as open or as realistically alive on top. The DV2's different cast was, in some ways, a better match for the Statement, with increased and more complexly layered bass compensating for the slight homogenization of color concomitant with the server's slightly warm top." (In my opinion, the fault (the softer top) is not the DV2's but the Innuos Statement music server)
Jacek Pazio of SoundRebel.com reviews the latest DV2:
"I will not pretend to be omniscient, so I must admit that by plugging the D / A converter into my audio system, I did not know what to expect. I have never managed to meet this component in a packed field - of course, apart from a dozen or so very unrepresentative minutes at the autumn AVS 2019 exhibition, that's why my thoughts were not contaminated by any guesses. Yes, taking part in several thematic forums I read about its great performances, but it's different to read about something and experience something in my own backyard. And you know what? From the perspective of the time spent with this component, I am glad that, firstly, I was able to familiarize myself with it, and secondly, confirmed the positive opinions circulating in the network. It offers many very good sonic features. Starting from excellent resolution - to appropriate weight and breath of message, reserved for the very best, - to building a wide and deep virtual scene - to (adding to all these components from my point of view) pleasantly crafted art. But not in the sense of limiting the scale of the sounds of instruments, including percussion, but giving the music an element of harmless smoothness, and therefore palpability. So translating from Polish to ours, it was dense in a good sense of the word, surprisingly at ease, with great momentum and suspension of the whole in 3D." (The system used in the test: - source: CEC TL 0 3.0 transport - dCS Vivaldi DAC 2.0 digital / analog converter, SME 30/2, SME V, etc.) (Translated)
"I will not pretend to be omniscient, so I must admit that by plugging the D / A converter into my audio system, I did not know what to expect. I have never managed to meet this component in a packed field - of course, apart from a dozen or so very unrepresentative minutes at the autumn AVS 2019 exhibition, that's why my thoughts were not contaminated by any guesses. Yes, taking part in several thematic forums I read about its great performances, but it's different to read about something and experience something in my own backyard. And you know what? From the perspective of the time spent with this component, I am glad that, firstly, I was able to familiarize myself with it, and secondly, confirmed the positive opinions circulating in the network. It offers many very good sonic features. Starting from excellent resolution - to appropriate weight and breath of message, reserved for the very best, - to building a wide and deep virtual scene - to (adding to all these components from my point of view) pleasantly crafted art. But not in the sense of limiting the scale of the sounds of instruments, including percussion, but giving the music an element of harmless smoothness, and therefore palpability. So translating from Polish to ours, it was dense in a good sense of the word, surprisingly at ease, with great momentum and suspension of the whole in 3D." (The system used in the test: - source: CEC TL 0 3.0 transport - dCS Vivaldi DAC 2.0 digital / analog converter, SME 30/2, SME V, etc.) (Translated)
Just to correct my earlier post. DA2 V2 retail has indeed gone up to US$30k so it's the same price as the DV2. Given that, for digital only people, generally the DV2 is the better buy (and all that most people will need I expect) although for those seeking the last ultimate drop of performance the DA2 V2's fixed output apparently results in its performance exceeding that of the DV2 but then you will need a very good preamp to realize that extra performance.
Thanks Bar81 for explaining the difference in performance between the two. I was wondering the rationale for having the V2 if both have the same performance.
Hi folks,
I have just replaced the Emm Labs DA2 with the latest upgraded DV2 (with volume control). This is a breakthrough product. Using the optimized 7 volts, the delicacy and realism are astounding! A drastic improvement over the previous versions.
I have just replaced the Emm Labs DA2 with the latest upgraded DV2 (with volume control). This is a breakthrough product. Using the optimized 7 volts, the delicacy and realism are astounding! A drastic improvement over the previous versions.
Hi Bar81,
I am using the volume control of the DV2. The volume control here is as good (in terms of sound quality) as the best out there!
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