Hi res again?

[microstrip]

Am I in the wrong thread? First you assured me that talking about vinyl was on topic. Now, "in this particular thread" you feel it is appropriate to limit the music discussion to classical. I was almost certain the thread was about hi-res digital formats and had no limitations around classical music. But hey, what do I know? I just started the thread...



Tim

Tim,
Am I writing in a strange dialect? IMHO comparing with any other format must be on topic... And I suppose that many participants other than you can answer to a request about classical music...
As far as I know we are free to choose the type of music in WTB discussions. I have said before that complex classic music or chamber music is much more challenging than simple jazz music with a few performers or pop vocal music that I do not know how it would sound as I never was in the studio. Others may think differently....

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,
Am I writing in a strange dialect? IMHO comparing with any other format must be on topic... And I suppose that many participants other than you can answer to a request about classical music...
As far as I know we are free to choose the type of music in WTB discussions. I have said before that complex classic music or chamber music is much more challenging than simple jazz music with a few performers or pop vocal music that I do not know how it would sound as I never was in the studio. Others may think differently....

It's all good, Micro. If classical is your frame of reference, enjoy. But while we're on the subject, I get the challenge of large orchestral pieces -- broader dynamic range than most recordings, and a recording technique that sometimes attempts to capture hall ambience, and, unlike the overwhelming majority of recordings, gives our systems the opportunity to attempt to reproduce it. Of course the trade-off is the simple stereo mic techniques from out in the hall that do that will never capture the imaging you can get from other recording techniques, but I digress. What I don't get is why classical chamber recordings are more challenging than jazz. Why, exactly, do you think a string quartet and a piano, for example, is more challenging to record or reproduce than a saxaphone, a trumpet, a standup bass, and guitar and a piano?

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Musician seating positions and the corresponding microphone placements, particularly the leakage.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It's all good, Micro. If classical is your frame of reference, enjoy. But while we're on the subject, I get the challenge of large orchestral pieces -- broader dynamic range than most recordings, and a recording technique that sometimes attempts to capture hall ambience, and, unlike the overwhelming majority of recordings, gives our systems the opportunity to attempt to reproduce it. Of course the trade-off is the simple stereo mic techniques from out in the hall that do that will never capture the imaging you can get from other recording techniques, but I digress. What I don't get is why classical chamber recordings are more challenging than jazz. Why, exactly, do you think a string quartet and a piano, for example, is more challenging to record or reproduce than a saxaphone, a trumpet, a standup bass, and guitar and a piano?

Tim

small scale classical is tough to really get right because of the nature of classical instruments demands more precision and more articulation to nail. playing string quartets for instance, getting the subtlties of the differences between the cello, viola and violin allow the music to connect, piano overtones ,naturalness, and dynamic explosiveness are challenging for any system. small scale classical can get edgy and irratating when refinement in presentation is missing.

my listening to classical in general, and small scale classical in particular has increased at the same pace my system has improved.

it's my genre of choice now.

jazz is just much more forgiving of small weaknesses in systems. generally the instruments are more big and bold in their approach. sure, you have the occasional muted horn or jazz violin, but in comparison classical is more demanding.

 

[microstrip]

small scale classical is tough to really get right because of the nature of classical instruments demands more precision and more articulation to nail. playing string quartets for instance, getting the subtlties of the differences between the cello, viola and violin allow the music to connect, piano overtones ,naturalness, and dynamic explosiveness are challenging for any system. small scale classical can get edgy and irratating when refinement in presentation is missing.

my listening to classical in general, and small scale classical in particular has increased at the same pace my system has improved.

it's my genre of choice now.

jazz is just much more forgiving of small weaknesses in systems. generally the instruments are more big and bold in their approach. sure, you have the occasional muted horn or jazz violin, but in comparison classical is more demanding.

Nice to see that while my flight was crossing the Atlantic, Mike masterly expressed my feelings better than I would be able to do.

Bewtween thousands others I usually use a recording to illustrate it: the Shostakovitch Piano Trio, op. 67.

 

[Ronm1]

Nice to see that while my flight was crossing the Atlantic, Mike masterly expressed my feelings better than I would be able to do.

Bewtween thousands others I usually use a recording to illustrate it: the Shostakovitch Piano Trio, op. 67.

Though I have quite a few Jazz titles I use to demo, currently my classical disc of choice are

Frye Street Quartet releases....

Paganini for Two Shaham:Sollscher followed by
Sonate per Archi #1-6 Rossini - NBK/Erxleben

Violin Concerto in D - Beethoven The Heifetz/BSO is my performance of choice with the Living Stereo SACD release

Complete Works for Piano & Cello
Zuill Bailey, Simone Dinnerstein Telarc

 

[fas42]

small scale classical is tough to really get right because of the nature of classical instruments demands more precision and more articulation to nail. playing string quartets for instance, getting the subtlties of the differences between the cello, viola and violin allow the music to connect, piano overtones ,naturalness, and dynamic explosiveness are challenging for any system. small scale classical can get edgy and irratating when refinement in presentation is missing..

Agree 100%. When checking out where the system's tweaking is at, I typically start with 30's swing recordings, and end up with reasonably current Quartet CDs.

If you want a killer classical album to really nail your setup's status, try Medici String Quartet playing Franck's Quintet (with piano) and Faure, on Nimbus. Late 80's digital encoded with Ambisonics, so a somewhat bizarre deep and massive simulated acoustic, the piano sounds like it's half a mile away. If you can recover the acoustic properly, AND get the string tone right in this cavernous space then you're doing all right ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Sorry guys, I don't mean to be argumentative, but none of this logically follow for me. The bold blast of an unmuted trumpet would challenge a system in one way, the delicacy of violin, viola and cello would challenge another set of system capabilities. Piano? Piano is hard to record and reproduce, period. But I really can't see how Chopin is a substantially different challenge for the recording or the reproduction system than Bill Evans.

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sorry guys, I don't mean to be argumentative, but none of this logically follow for me. The bold blast of an unmuted trumpet would challenge a system in one way, the delicacy of violin, viola and cello would challenge another set of system capabilities. Piano? Piano is hard to record and reproduce, period. But I really can't see how Chopin is a substantially different challenge for the recording or the reproduction system than Bill Evans.

Tim

i have maybe 50+ Bill Evans piano Lps (and maybe 30 digital discs of Bill Evans), a few original pressings, lots of 45rpm reissues, some box sets. i listen to them frequently. i even have a master tape dub of Waltz for Debbie.

i also have an LP box set of Eisenbach playing Mozart Piano Sonata's (i think on Phillips). i use a couple of the Eisenbach Mozart discs for system set-up and even tonearm development with Joel Durand's tonearms (Joel uses them for that while i watch, not me). they are wonderfully precise and well balanced, and naturally presented. any change in system or tonearm is communicated thru these recordings clearly.

even the best of the Bill Evans Lps is muddled in direct comparison. sure; his playing is always communicative. i love his approach and he takes me someplace. his 'Peace, Peace' is maybe my favorite recording and i get emotional just thinking about it. but nowhere in his recordings is my system challanged to rise to a level to enjoy the music. his recordings do not require precision to be what they are. is this a flaw? of course not. but it's typical. OTOH classical is also enjoyable at different levels; but has the potential to be transcendant when fully rendered. and you can tell when that happens.

Tim; i wish you could come over to my house tonight and i would show you what i mean. i don't expect you to accept my perspective....since you rarely do.

added note; i also have a couple of wonderful Marta Argerich Chopin Lps on DG which are wonderful performances, if not quite the excellent recordings of the Eisenbach Mozart box.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

i have maybe 50+ Bill Evans piano Lps, a few original pressings, lots of 45rpm reissues, some box sets. i listen to them frequently. i even have a master tape dub of Waltz for Debbie.

i also have an LP box set of Eisenbach playing Mozart Piano Sonata's (i think on Phillips). i use a couple of the Eisenbach Mozart discs for system set-up and even tonearm development with Joel Durand's tonearms (Joel uses them for that while i watch, not me). they are wonderfully precise and well balanced, and naturally presented. any change in system or tonearm is communicated thru these recordings clearly.

even the best of the Bill Evans Lps is muddled in direct comparison. sure; his playing is always communicative. i love his approach and he takes me someplace. his 'Peace, Peace' is maybe my favorite recording and i get emotional just thinking about it. but nowhere in his recordings is my system challanged to rise to a level to enjoy the music. his recordings do not require precision to be what they are. is this a flaw? of course not. but it's typical. OTOH classical is also enjoyable at different levels; but has the potential to be transcendant when fully rendered. and you can tell when that happens.

Tim; i wish you could come over to my house tonight and i would show you what i mean. i don't expect you to accept my perspective....since you rarely do.

We're talking about two different things, Myles. You're comparing Bill Evans recordings with the best classical piano recording you can come up with. But we weren't talking about the recordings, we were talking abou musical styles, or at least I was. Let's assume for the sake of discussion that you have the same pianist playing the same piano in the same studio into the same microphone, etc, etc. He plays some Chopin. Then he plays Peace Piece. You're trying to tell me that somehow the genre is more challenging to your system. That's what does not compute.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

(...)
i also have an LP box set of Eisenbach playing Mozart Piano Sonata's (i think on Phillips). i use a couple of the Eisenbach Mozart discs for system set-up and even tonearm development with Joel Durand's tonearms (Joel uses them for that while i watch, not me). they are wonderfully precise and well balanced, and naturally presented. any change in system or tonearm is communicated thru these recordings clearly. (...)

Mike,
If we are thinking of the same recordings it is a Deutsche Grammophon box. Tim will forgive me for the off topic , but IMHO they are some of the nicest recordings of Mozart Piano sonatas I ever listened to. These early recordings of the young Christoph Eschenbach were not very well received by the critics when they were first presented, but they have a freshness and a lyrical touch I still find captivating.

 

[Gregadd]

A big band kicking ass and an orchestra in full blast are going to put quite a strain on any system. A string quartet or jazz trio are not quite as demanding. Getting the full nuance out of any recording takes quite an effort. Then there is rock and roll that requires a whole different effort.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

We're talking about two different things, Myles. You're comparing Bill Evans recordings with the best classical piano recording you can come up with. But we weren't talking about the recordings, we were talking abou musical styles, or at least I was. Let's assume for the sake of discussion that you have the same pianist playing the same piano in the same studio into the same microphone, etc, etc. He plays some Chopin. Then he plays Peace Piece. You're trying to tell me that somehow the genre is more challenging to your system. That's what does not compute.

Tim

you are simply wrong.

Chopin, or Mozart, or Beethoven piano music requires a breath of skills and techniques which Jazz piano does not. and to communicate the full message of that music much more is put on the recording and the system.

i assume you are familiar with Rudy Van Gelder; who recorded thousands of golden age jazz recordings. he's likely the most important jazz recording engineer. i suppose i have 500 jazz lps recorded by Rudy. i'm not sure i've ever heard him really get very close to fully capturing a jazz piano. evidently he felt that a piano at full-tilt boggie would take away from the big picture in his recordings, so he blunted them to keep them under control. but does that mean his recordings were problematic? i don't think so. he was able to create an environment where musical magic was made. and we are all the better for it. sure; sometimes i wish his piano's sounded better. but the message of the music always come thru clearly. no way would a classical recording be able to make that decision, the musical essence would not allow it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

A big band kicking ass and an orchestra in full blast are going to put quite a strain on any system. A string quartet or jazz trio are not quite as demanding. Getting the full nuance out of any recording takes quite an effort. Then there is rock and roll that requires a whole different effort.

i'll agree to an extent. but the classical piano requires a full frequency balance and refinement that the big band can live without. not that the big band does not benefit from ultimate performance......it's just that the very best performing system makes the most difference on a recording such as a solo grand piano. there are so many textures and overtones and growls which are so clear that small differences jump out. the overall energy of the Big Band masks subtle aspects of the performance differences.

 

[fas42]

i'll agree to an extent. but the classical piano requires a full frequency balance and refinement that the big band can live without. not that the big band does not benefit from ultimate performance......it's just that the very best performing system makes the most difference on a recording such as a solo grand piano. there are so many textures and overtones and growls which are so clear that small differences jump out. the overall energy of the Big Band masks subtle aspects of the performance differences.

Now that's something I will severely disagree with! Keeping in mind I'm talking about CD, classical piano is pretty straightforward, the killer IS big band at full tilt: when a system is working correctly you get all the energy of the performance but the individual sounds of all the participating instruments are still fully clear, tonally correct and occupying an acoustic space within the whole which is straightforward to discern. The slightest problem with the setup, and that sound degenerates into a jarring mess ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

you are simply wrong.

Chopin, or Mozart, or Beethoven piano music requires a breath of skills and techniques which Jazz piano does not. and to communicate the full message of that music much more is put on the recording and the system.

i assume you are familiar with Rudy Van Gelder; who recorded thousands of golden age jazz recordings. he's likely the most important jazz recording engineer. i suppose i have 500 jazz lps recorded by Rudy. i'm not sure i've ever heard him really get very close to fully capturing a jazz piano. evidently he felt that a piano at full-tilt boggie would take away from the big picture in his recordings, so he blunted them to keep them under control. but does that mean his recordings were problematic? i don't think so. he was able to create an environment where musical magic was made. and we are all the better for it. sure; sometimes i wish his piano's sounded better. but the message of the music always come thru clearly. no way would a classical recording be able to make that decision, the musical essence would not allow it.

Mike, when the finger strikes the key which triggers the hammer, which strikes the string, which energizes the soundboard which sends waves of sound pressure through the air which vibrates the diaphragm of the microphone, not the key nor the hammer nor the string nor the board nor the air nor the microphone knows the genre of music that is being played. Regardless of the attack, the decay, or the dynamic or temporal relationship to the note that proceeded it or the one that follows, it does not know. The brain that moved the finger knows and the brain that heard the music knows. But your system, no matter how much you love it, does not know. And it doesn't care. But thanks. It's good to know when I'm simply wrong.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

you are simply wrong.

Chopin, or Mozart, or Beethoven piano music requires a breath of skills and techniques which Jazz piano does not. and to communicate the full message of that music much more is put on the recording and the system.

Traveling so not fully able to follow this more than interesting discussion. This need some correction. I would have preferred "different" set of skills not that playing Jazz piano requires less skills which is IMO what seems to be implied in this statement. Jazz requires a different but equal in breadth, set of skills and techniques and some would argue even more, I would not. The great Jazz pianists did have to master all the techniques of the classical repertoire to produce the sounds we hear from them and indeed many were classically trained ... Oscar Peterson comes to mind some actually performs in Classical pieces (Keith Jarrett comes to ind) .. I could well see Keith Jarrett or Herbie Hancock on a Classical Music path if they did set their mind to ... Don't you think Thelonious Monk techniques was spectacular or Art Tatum or Martial Solal ? There are countless of others amongst them this incredible woman Mary Lou Williams, very much unknown which I discovered totally by accident listening on the Internet no less to some NPR Jazz program .. I 'll stop there
I agree that Piano is a very difficult instrument to get right and even more to record.. I would also say that it is one of those rare instrument that CD gets very, but very right..

Another bizarre thing IME is how Western Classical music seems to fare better than many other genre to the brutal compression algorithms of mp3 and others similar lossy codecs ... Please don't roll your eyes. Listen to a classical piece at 320 kbps and tell us in all honesty ...

P.S. Also agree with Tim .. An Audio System has no soul .. We actually should like it to be a bland, verbatim reproducer of what is in the medium be it CD, R2R or LP.. Let's leave it to our brain and ..our soul to do the rest..

 

[RBFC]

Perhaps we're actually talking about HOW a genre of music is typically miked and recorded, rather than the dynamics and performance nuances of those genres. I'd agree that the classical pieces tend to be recorded in such a manner that showcases the dynamic range of the instrument, as well as demonstrating more subtle nuances. I'm not saying that jazz pianists don't play this way, I'm stating that most of the jazz recordings don't display it to the same degree.

Anyone agree?

Lee

 

[Gregadd]

But thanks. It's good to know when I'm simply wrong.

Tim reread the book you referred me too. (On being Wrong)

Mike jazz is no stranger to the solo grand piano. In fact Keith has been known to make some annoying grunts himself.

Lee I was about to make the point of microphone placement and recording technique.

 

[JackD201]

Perhaps we're actually talking about HOW a genre of music is typically miked and recorded, rather than the dynamics and performance nuances of those genres. I'd agree that the classical pieces tend to be recorded in such a manner that showcases the dynamic range of the instrument, as well as demonstrating more subtle nuances. I'm not saying that jazz pianists don't play this way, I'm stating that most of the jazz recordings don't display it to the same degree.

Anyone agree?

Lee

That's what I said in post #63