High Output MC Phono Cartridges

[Ron Resnick]

With the numerous extremely favorable reports on the VdH Master Signature cartridge with an output of up to 1.1mV, combined with the long-standing adulation for the high output Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement (at least .6 mV), have we (the collective “we”) been chasing the wrong audio God as we pursue cartridges with low and lower outputs (for example, Koetsu and ZYX)?

While not an MC cartridge you will be hearing great (even hyperbolic sounding) reports about the Grado Epoch, a high output and an MC cost level moving magnet cartridge.

It seems clear to me that the high output gets you state of the art dynamics right off the bat. So the question becomes what are you giving up when you leave a high output cartridge in favor of a low output cartridge? We know the traditional answer is that by going to a low output cartridge you are realizing greater delicacy and “nuance.”

But the wonderful dynamics of high output cartridges immediately give you “one bird in the hand.” One had better be getting some mighty fine nuance from that low output cartridge to justify the risk of compromising on dynamics.

Plus high output cartridges take a lot of pressure off the phono stage, especially tube phono stages.

What do you think?

Have you compared directly in an apples-to-apples manner 1) the dynamics and 2) the delicacy/nuance of high output cartridges versus low output cartridges?

 

[DaveyF]

Some great questions Ron.
For several years, myself and other local a’philes, have been going against the grain and telling all that the higher output is the better option...in most cases.
Simple reason is like you queried, better overall dynamics and less stress on the upstream gear, particularly if it is a tube phono stage.
This is not a popular statement right now. Numerous manufacturers are trying to sell us on the idea that lower coil windings means less loss to the signal. While IME that may be somewhat true with some cartridges, the losses due to added noise and reduced dynamics due to the losses at the phono stage, results in any gains in nuance being more than off-set by the lower output- and loss of dynamics.
This is not a popular position, as I stated. Nonetheless, it is what I have come to experience having listened on several occasions to the higher output cartridge and the lower output version. Almost always, the lower output version is too limited in dynamics...and not additionally nuanced/delicate enough for me to want to opt for it. In many cases, there isn’t even an option, it’s ultra low output or nothing!
That has lead me to discount numerous cartridges for this very reason. YMMV.

 

[audio.bill]

... While not an MC cartridge you will be hearing great (even hyperbolic sounding) reports about the Grado Epoch, a high output and an MC cost level moving magnet cartridge.
...

With all due respect, what some may consider a minor point of correction is that the Grado Epoch is technically a moving iron design and not a moving magnet. Grado's MI design used in their TOTL Epoch and Aeon "feature a unique system that has the lowest effective moving mass of any cartridge".

 

[daytona600]

Epoch on my wishlist stunning cartridge

Friend recently installed one of these 2.0mv HOMC & excellent sounding for under $1000
Jico Seto-Hori sounds almost like a beer budget Koetsu

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/jico-seto-hori-cartridge/

 

[Solypsa]

low output was never the goal...but rather low impedance and low generator mass; with output mV the casualty. It's a testament to designer and builder that we are seeing outputs rise while former stays relatively low. Good times for analog!

 

[bazelio]

I'll take a gander and say there's no generic answer. Intuitively, lower mass equates to greater fine detail. Lower output generally equates to lower mass due to less coil. So we might conclude lower output equates to greater micro-detail resolution capability. On the other hand, higher output should also intuitively equate to higher SNR and greater dynamics. Both seem important, but perhaps (?) at odds with each other. The latter is more quantitative (capable of being measured) than the former, and thus for a long time was probably the common wisdom. At this point, system matching comes to play. Tables with characteristically "high drive" or a lot of "slam" or "punch" like (presumably) the AS2000, high end Kuzmas, idlers, just off the top of my head may actually be best suited to the lower output end of the spectrum. They've inherently got the dynamics thing down and benefit from a cart capable of low level detail and nuance for the best overall experience. Similarly, softer sounding belt drive tables or tonearms may benefit from being matched with higher output carts.

I run a 0.2mV Proteus cart with 1 ohm internal impedance on a Stabi M, and I almost always find playback in my rig to be more punchy and lively than most other rigs with higher output carts. Full system balance has to come in to play. If I ever upgrade to a Master Sig, I'm fairly certain I'll go with the lowest output version.

PS I don't think I understand the "taking pressure" off the phono. I run a passive line stage (no gain) with my 0.2mV cart, and when using a 1:20 SUT into MM-level gain phono, I still have to attenuate -20dB for a loud listening volume using 89dB speakers. The amp creates +24dB I think, so I'm attenuating most of that away. with a higher gain phono, obviously I'm just attenuating further.

 

[audioguy1958]

This is a timely thread for me Ron. I've been considering acquiring another cartridge for a Universal 12" tonearm that's currently unused, and was researching what MC I should get for the best value for my money.

I'd like to hear anyone's opinion about the physics involved in MC versus MM etc. I've read that generally fewer windings in an MC results in higher resolution, at the cost of output. I'm not sure about any effect on dynamics. Is there going to be a change in thinking regarding this?

 

[mulveling]

Running various 0.3mV Koetsus over the years, and preferring tubes, I find using a SUT plus MM stage an easy way to get the dynamics back. This is in comparison to a couple of JFET MC/tube MM hybrid stages, which make Koetsus sound relatively flat and uninvolving from their MC inputs. If you don't like SUT's (they do each have their own sound) and do like tubes, I imagine you're going to have a hard time with carts under 0.5 mV and a much better time with ones over that.

 

[bazelio]

Running various 0.3mV Koetsus over the years, and preferring tubes, I find using a SUT plus MM stage an easy way to get the dynamics back. This is in comparison to a couple of JFET MC/tube MM hybrid stages, which make Koetsus sound relatively flat and uninvolving from their MC inputs. If you don't like SUT's (they do each have their own sound) and do like tubes, I imagine you're going to have a hard time with carts under 0.5 mV and a much better time with ones over that.

Tubes should be fine with a lower output cart, especially in combination with a SUT that gives enough voltage gain. I'm demoing a fantastic phono right now, and it's a tubed unit combined with a 1:20 external silver SUT. I suppose it's possible to do with purely tube gain too, but I've not yet heard a pure tube gain stage create these results in my system. I'm getting fantastic results with SUT+tubes using a 0.2mV cart, though. And that's with zero additional gain at the line stage. I was all but ready to give up on tubes before this phono arrived, too....

 

[mulveling]

Tubes should be fine with a lower output cart, especially in combination with a SUT that gives enough voltage gain. I'm demoing a fantastic phono right now, and it's a tubed unit combined with a 1:20 external silver SUT. I suppose it's possible to do with purely tube gain too, but I've not yet heard a pure tube gain stage create these results in my system. But I'm getting fantastic results with SUT+tubes using a 0.2mV cart. And I was all but ready to give up on tubes before this phono arrived...

Yes, that's what I meant - tube MM stage plus a SUT is my favorite setup for Koetsu. Trying to go with all-tube gain stages up past 50dB seems crazy, given the inherent tube noise. Even if you somehow manage to engineer the tube rush noise down to a tolerable level, it places a ridiculously high burden on tube selection & maintenance going forward. My current favorite setup is a VAC Renaissance SE phono stage (44 dB tube gain) plus an EAR MC-3 SUT on the 30x gain setting with Coralstone. The VAC's tube rush noise is barely perceptible up at high volume levels - about the best I've heard, and with no trace of hum. Meanwhile the EAR beats the VAC's built-in Lundahls, and I find that I prefer higher ratios (30x or 40x) precisely to get all the dynamics out.

Then there is a very significant difference in the sonics of various SUT models, almost as much as changing cartridge brands in some cases - that's likely to be a big turn-off to some. The Lundahl vs. EAR is particularly striking in this way. The EAR and CineMag/Bob's Devices Sky are more similar to each other. Must be the Lundahl's amorphous cores.

 

[bazelio]

Agree for sure with the noise issue with all-tube MC gain. SUT+MM gain seems the better tradeoff for me also when using tubes.

 

[DaveyF]

The age old point with all tube phono stage and an SUT...how much in the way of SQ is lost by adding in the additional SUT stage...to many the loss off-sets the gain ( pun) in potential SQ of the lower output cartridge. IME, cartridges of appx 0.35mv can be handled with most all tube phono stages without too much tube noise, below that...nope.

 

[bazelio]

For a very interesting comparison point, I have two phonos on demo this week. One silver SUT+tubes with LCR RIAA, and one current mode amplification (loadless for low output carts). The cart is 0.2mV. This should be a good first hand learning experience.

PS @DaveyF while that will certainly hold true in some cases, I don't think it's that simple so as to be a universal truth.

 

[mulveling]

Absolutely, the SUT imposes a significant influence on the resultant sound - in tone, plus almost all other SQ attributes. For this reason, it may not appeal to certain "wire with gain" seeking purists. I prefer to think of a good SUT as an extension of the MC coil it's been paired with - and I'm not sure why wire with gain purists would find much appeal in vinyl playback anyways. In the context of low-output MC's that seem to lack dynamics with typical active MC gain stages, a known good pairing of particular SUT to that MC can get you the slam and dynamics that was missing - and regardless of potential losses from the SUT, the more dynamic sound is usually going to be perceived as more realistic and detailed by a lot of audiophiles. The pairing is crucial, and it's good here to draw on the experience of others, though as audiophiles it can be difficult to stave off the need for experimentation.

 

[Solypsa]

On the topic of gain: one really needs to look system gain including amp input sensitivity. If you're drawn to lower output carts then having a handle on what it takes to drive your amps to your target output is important. With an all digital rig there is usually a large excess of gain so people dont think about it much...

 

[Ron Resnick]

With all due respect, what some may consider a minor point of correction is that the Grado Epoch is technically a moving iron design and not a moving magnet. Grado's MI design used in their TOTL Epoch and Aeon "feature a unique system that has the lowest effective moving mass of any cartridge".

Thank you for being so gracious, Bill, but no respect needed here as I am wrong. Wrong is wrong! Thank you for correcting me!

Have heard the Grado Epoch?

 

[audio.bill]

Thank you for being so gracious, Bill, but no respect needed here as I am wrong. Wrong is wrong! Thank you for correcting me!

Have heard the Grado Epoch?

I haven't had the opportunity to hear the latest Grado Epoch or Aeon myself, but from everything I've read my expectations on their level of performance is quite high. Of course at this level most cartridges are excellent and it often comes down to a matter of taste and system matching.

 

[Exlibris]

I'm in the market for an MC cartridge that comes close to my London Decca Reference cartridge in terms of dynamics, immediacy, and front row presentation.

 

[daytona600]

Ortofon MC A95

 

[Solypsa]

I wouldn't per say call it 'front row' presentation but if your tonearm can handle a 22g cart you are welcome to try my demo Y12S Verona from Sensitive Sound at no obligation. PM me if interested.